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QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 23, 2013 -> 07:00 PM) I don't think the sox really have "multiple holes" to fill as of now, particularly since they now have a starting catcher. That could change within the week though. Why not? Just because we got an average at best catcher in the long run, and our pseudo lead off hitter is getting on a hot streak, but is still clueless on defense? I also do not believe Beckham is a long term solution just because his BABIP is at an unsustainable .370 clip, and he has sacrificed all his power in the process. Yes, we don't have any glaring offensive weakness at this point, outside of third base. Gillaspie's offense just isn't going to cut it. The bigger issue is we don't have an above average offensive player at any position outside of Rios. A good offense would feature at least two all stars and one borderline all star. Rios is a borderline all star at best, and should be batting 5th or 6th in a good offense. By the way, none of our hitters have an OBP of over .800 From a typical lineup stand point, I would say we are missing a legit leadoff hitter, and legit number 3 and 4 hitters. Frankly they are the most important holes to fill.

So the Cubs were able to trade Garza, and the Soriano to NY trade is gaining a lot of steam. We have similar trade pieces in Peavy and Rios, and whether those two are better trade assets than Garza and Soriano is debatable. Yet we aren't even close to be in serious discussions in any trade talks with Peavy and Rios. From the several sources around, it seems the Sox are asking for a little too much in return. Yet the Garza haul for the Cubs is pretty much what we can dream of, and they still got it done. Part of me thinks the Sox are just reluctant to trade those pieces, and are still toying with the retool vs rebuild idea. We will be able see who's really in charge after the trade deadline, and it probably won't be Hahn. I would be really disappointed if we end up not making any majors moves at the deadline. There is no way we can be productive in the long term without trading away these pieces to replenish our farm, and none of the guys on our offense currently are players you can build an offense around.

What are the chances of the Sox stand pat and not make a major move? I would hate to see Rios, Peavy and Ramirez's contract not being moved.

QUOTE (MexSoxFan#1 @ Jul 19, 2013 -> 10:46 AM) NSIS Anyways, Carlos is Spanish for Charles. Charles and Carlos are in fact brothers, and they look very much alike. Your acronym was even more obscure than the fact lol

There are even a few guys at the gym I go to who can pull off something like that in practice. And what seems a little troubling is his release is a little slow for the NBA level, especially for a sharpshooter with no lateral quickness.

http://www.nba.com/games/20130718/MIACHI/gameinfo.html Very nice game for Teague, and he's still 20 years old with high ceiling. Looking at the bottom of the Bulls box score and I spotted R. Allen and C. Boozer and thought we somehow stole Ray Ray from the Heat. But turns out it was just some scrubs named Ryan Allen and Charles Boozer.

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jul 18, 2013 -> 04:26 PM) Kind of surprised at the outrage. Wasn't much reaction when the Tigers received one last year. That's even more puzzling. Detroit isn't in the top 10 for small teams, and they had the 10th highest revenue in 2011, unless Bud Selig's crystal ball that predicted Detroit going bankrupt in 2013.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jul 18, 2013 -> 12:11 PM) If you go purely by population in the metro area, then yes, Saint Louis is definitely one of the 10 smallest. 2012 pop estimates in millions: Milwaukee 2.0 Cincinnati 2.2 Kansas City 2.4 Pittsburgh 2.7 Tampa 2.8 Saint Louis 2.9 San Diego 3.2 Denver 3.2 Cleveland 3.5 Minneapolis 3.8 Phoenix 4.2 Seattle 4.4 Detroit 5.3 Toronto 5.6 Atlanta 6.1 Houston 6.4 Miami 6.4 Dallas 7.1 Philadelphia 7.1 Boston 8.0 San Francisco/Oakland 8.4 Washington/Baltimore 9.3 Chicago 9.9 Los Angeles 18.2 New York 23.4 That is an absurd loophole that baseball needs to fix. If we don't at any other measurements other than the market population, St. Louis definitely ranks in the upper echelon of baseball teams. This team has consistently finished in the Top 5 in attendance for the past decade, 2 world series wins in the past 7 years, currently has one of the top 5 farms systems in the league, and their team has been a perennial playoff contender every year in this century. Business wise, the most recent Forbes ranking had this team ranked 10th in terms of value (Sox at 11th), and 7th in revenue. So I do not really see how the "small" market in St. Louis is preventing the Cardinals from being a successful franchise, or the small population is preventing them from generating revenue and going out to spend $$ on free agents.

Can someone explain why the Cardinals are in the lottery. On paper it says the 10 smallest market teams, and the 10 lowest revenue teams can participate, but the Cardinals, who is 6th in attendance last year, got a pick as well. Are they considered a small market team? I am just a little baffle.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 15, 2013 -> 12:00 AM) It's worth mentioning that Fangraphs LOVES him. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) he registers very well with the advanced metrics. Very good ground ball rates throughout his career as well which is something a team playing in our park would like. He's always fared pretty well in the xFIP department on Fangraphs, and his sinker produces enough ground balls to give him a shot at the big leagues. With his peripherals against lefties this year, even if he doesn't pan out as a back of the rotation option, he should still be a solid LOOGY for a few years.

QUOTE (Bruce_Blixton @ Jul 14, 2013 -> 10:49 PM) I have to echo this sentiment, posters have been too hard on Hawkins this year and have unfairly scrutinized him. I really enjoy visiting Soxtalk and following the minor league action, this community is by far the most knowledgeable about the team's minor league system so I really value everyone's input in the game threads. I feel like I gain a very good understanding of the players within our system but also the system as a whole, the good with the bad. Unfortunately the current trend seems to be to keep a running count of Hawkins' strikeouts and mental errors and not in a constructive manner but a very sardonic, cynical tone. My question is, what's the point of being so cynical and pessimistic? What do you have to gain by scrutinizing a player's performance to the point of not allowing anyone else to have a shred of optimism for that player? Is it some type of Borchard hangover? This isn't a personal attack against any particular poster but rather a deeper, philosophical question on how to view the players in our minor league system. Also regarding Hawkins' troubles this season, can you imagine if you were a Royals fan right now? Bubba Starling, who at one point was compared to Mickey f***ing Mantle is barely hitting above the Mendoza line in the Sally league, so let's cut Hawkins a little slack for struggling. He still has the most talent and best physical tools in our system, let's give him a couple of years (or at least one full season in professional ball!) before we write him off. Sorry for the rant. When your major league team is a major disappointment, and your young phenom and supposedly your best prospect, by far, is having an historically bad season, it's hard to keep people's mouth shut. I think that outside of the Twitter thread, most of the sentiments here aren't really over the edge, or offensive, by any means, and most of them have been constructive. I see a lot of posters are suggesting demoting Hawkins to help him rediscover the basics, giving him extra time off, etc. Some folks are seemingly ready to write him off, but it happens. Personally, I am debating whether some folks are right to have him still best the number 1 prospect in the system, with Erik Johnson having the phenomenal season he's having. But that's just me. I think your post is a great post, it's always good to have optimism around. And that's what makes a fun debate between the pro Hawkins and the down on Hawkins.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jul 14, 2013 -> 11:40 PM) I would like to see some views on Charlie Leesman. I feel like he was getting slotted somewhere between 10-15 on most prospect lists last year. I know he is 26 but the dude gets lefties out. Vs. LHB: 16.1 IP, 23 Ks and .127 batting average. Fastball only coming in around 90 but he seems to be of the crafty variety and I am sure a transition to a relief role could bump up his fastball a touch. Very deceptive with a lower arm angle. He's has success in several different seasons/levels and seems to be improving in his second straight year at Charlotte. K rate way up. He will definitely be up this season after the trade deadline, if not, as a September call up. I feel like he was a miss for the FS Mid Season top 25 list. I would put him over Santos Rodriguez. He was the 11th best prospect in our system according to Fangraphs last year. Scouting report says his stuff is that of a AAAA player, and he's been overachieving in the minors. We will see how he fares as a lefty out of then pen later this year.

QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Jul 14, 2013 -> 09:17 PM) Also, here is a real long article on the subject.... http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/4/22/2...-league-k-rates The article proves nothing. It only draws to conclusion that sluggers (players with higher OPS according to study) tend to have a higher strikeout rate, which is perfectly understandable. This only proves Hawkins's approach is that of a slugger, which also isn't anything new. But the article does further reinforce that prospect success rate drops significantly once the prospect's minor league K% goes over 22%. And only 3% of the successful prospect (10 of them in total, since 1990), had a career MiLB K% of higher than 24%. Given Hawkins's K% is at 45% right now (the highest rate by a "successful" prospect being Branyan at 33%), this study definitely causes for greater concern. This is not saying Hawkins won't improve on his K% as he ages, but all signs aren't in his favor, and I definitely won't have him as a Top 3 prospect in our system right now. P.S. I wouldn't take this article seriously, there are several huge issues with the basis of the research.

Toby Thomas, 21st round pick this year, still only a 19 years old SS, is having quite a start to his pro ball career. 5 K's in 70 PA's is also very encouraging for this system.

That's why I am puzzled why some people still have Hawkins as the top prospect on the mid season list. Even if Erik Johnson isn't as good as advertised, he still should be a decent 4th/5th option, and he has the ceiling to be a number 2/3 starter if he pans out. If people are still putting Hawkins as the best prospect, that means they still expect him to hit .280 with around 30 HR and 100 RBI. I honestly can't even picture Hawkins putting up a .300 season in the minors from here on out. He's got a long long long way to go, and something's seriously wrong with his swing.

SO looking forward to Casper Wells making a cameo as a reliever tonight

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 13, 2013 -> 01:33 PM) It might be easier to get Wong and Owens. Who's that?

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 13, 2013 -> 01:09 PM) I agree. Wong, Martinez, and Wacha sounds like the majority of the return for Chris Sale, not Alexei/Thornton Martinez OR Wacha.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 13, 2013 -> 01:06 PM) I don't think that package brings you back one of those pitchers though. Depends on how desperate the Cardinals are, but I think it's pretty fair. Their current shortstop is awful, they have a surplus on major league ready pitching prospects, Kolton Wong is blocked by Carpenter, many people in the media have said we didn't get enough value for Thornton; Thornton is likely to fare better in the NL, and the Cardinals need more veteran and proven arms in the bullpen. So I don't think it's that far fetched.

QUOTE (Alpha Dog @ Jul 13, 2013 -> 12:45 PM) So far this is a typical Soxtalk thread regarding Sox player values. Our guys are all worth s*** until they get traded, and then its we never got enough. I think if we packaged Alexei and Thorton to the Cardinals for Kolten Wong and Martinez or Wacha, or along the lines, people would be ecstatic. I am don't have a problem with the value of the return, I just don't think it's the right type of player.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Jul 13, 2013 -> 03:29 AM) Claiming to know all of these prospects to bust is unreasonable. Two of them are in their first full year, one in his second, and the other two have had injury based setbacks. Sorry Paulstar - but your post was very biased in my opinion. At least we both agree the hope is for your sentiment to be off the mark. Cheers to that. I wouldn't call Walker a first full year player in the pros. Walkers has been in the system for long enough where we feel like we have a good enough read on him. Spin it all you want, but the facts are evident, their batting average keeps on dropping every time they get promoted. Out of our quartet and now Jacobs, they only have had one season with BA above .300, and the rest weren't even close. The fact is, we haven't any success with these type of prospects to be zeroing in on these players, namely spending 80% of the international pool on the Zapata signing and now the Jacobs trade.

I think a lot of people are missing the point. Some of us are not complaining about the value of the prospect we are getting in return. I could care less if it's Red Sox's 11th, 12th, or 13th best prospect, I just want someone who has good baseball skills and is a good bet of making the majors, even if they don't have the ceiling as high as Jacobs. Our minor leaguers that has the best chance of making the majors are Semien and Sanchez, guys who might be role players or average players, but have better baseball instinct and are more likely to make the majors. We don't have enough of those guys in the minors. Getting a Marco Scutaro type of player as prospect in return is a lot more ideal for us at this point. We already have enough lottery tickets, raw athletes in the system with Mitchell, Thompson, Walker, Hawkins, Zapata, I would even throw in Barnum, and now Jacobs. We will be lucky if even one of them will make it to the majors, and it would be at least several years away. I am afraid it's going to be a long rebuild that keeps on coming up short.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 13, 2013 -> 12:46 AM) His name is Lance Broadway That proved to be a failed approach for pitchers. Yet what's being undermined is the hitters from our farm that actually reached the majors were the likes of Sweeney, Getz, Morel, Beckham, and Phegley.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 13, 2013 -> 12:22 AM) Why would you want that? Are you aspiring to be Jerry Angelo? That's what he always said. Targeting low ceiling high floor guys doesn't win you the World Series. This trade was good. Matt Thornton is done. Thornton should have been traded 2 years imo. Because we are on the verge of trading away half of our team and there isn't a single hitter we can plug into our starting lineup this season or next season to fill the void, with the exception of Phegley. Some of us are hoping this is going to be a a short rebuild, but it ain't going to happen with these types of players we are targeting, we are always going to be a few years away. We have been on this lottery ticket approach for the past 3-4 years in terms of offensive talent, and nothing has paid off for us so far. And as much as I like this approach, we can't just have a system full of these guys. We need to target some some low ceiling high floor Marco Scutaro-esque players who will turn out to be solid role players

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 12, 2013 -> 11:51 PM) You mean like... Brandon Jacobs? Ha, fixed.