thxfrthmmrs

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 01:29 PM) The Pistons probably had four of the top-50 players in the league at the time, including a defensive player of the year caliber defender. It was definitely a differently constructed team, but they still clearly had elite-level talent. I guess you have a point on the 2003 Spurs, I obviously didn't check basketball reference before making that comment and mistakenly assumed Manu was at his peak. That said, I'd still take Parker over any non-Lebron Cav. 2005 and 2007 Spurs you definitely can't argue that Duncan didn't have some pretty major help. You still have Parker, who is (maybe was?) an outstanding driving guard and Manu was one of the most talented guards in the league. Look at Manu's stats again, over his career he's averaged 15-4-4 in only 28 MPG because the Spurs often rested him for the playoffs. He was DEFINITELY an impact player that could easily put up 20-5-5 in more minutes per game on a weaker team. If you look at his PER, he has been in the 22-24 range since 04/05, which is on the level of an elite player. You are DRASTICALLY overrating this Cavs' team sans-Lebron. First of all, he had Jamison for about half a year even when you factor in playoffs. There's still 6 1/2 seasons out of his career without Jamison. He has some good offensive skills, but is not a good defender. Mo Williams is a decent player, but has disappeared in the playoffs and isn't going to create a lot of positive plays on his own. Varejao is a nice role player, but hardly "one of the best defensive big men in the league". He is a successful position defender but is not a game-changing shot-blocking type big man. Shaq is hardly "overpowering" any more, more like extremely slow. He can't even stay on the floor for more than about 25 MPG. And why do people keep saying "role players" like West, Moon and Hickson like that's a good thing? Those guys aren't even average NBA players and are highly replaceable. There's a reason this team is going to struggle to win 30 games next year without Lebron, it's because they're not very good players. Williams and Jamison were relatively irrelevant players on mediocre/poor teams before coming to Cleveland and that's what they will be once again. I am sorry, I have to fact check you again. You are totally wrong for not giving varejao his credit. He was in contend for the DPOY award since mid season and end up finishing second team all defense because of Dwight Howard, and he didn't receive enough playing time. It's totally not a stretch to call him one of the best defensive big men in the league. Like I said yesterday, everyone can look at stats and judge, but you actually have to watch the game to know about the game. if you want to downgrade the the Cavs team, just take the fact that this team finished with the best record in the league the last two years, you can't do that unless the team is talented, and with Lebron in the mixed, this team definitely has the talented to be the best in the league and win it all, but his team didn't win anything nor sniff the NBA Finals in those years, and I believe that was the first time that happened in a long long long time. Like many said before, Lebron is not a closer, that's why he needs Wade to take the last shot. He doesn't have the killer instinct of Kobe or Jordan, or even Arenas and Billups. He is not the guy to take the last shot when the game is on the lineup. He is not as great as people make him out to be when everything is on the line, and you can't blame guys like Mo and Jamison for that.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 12:38 PM) Depends on your definition of "elite". None of them were top-10 players in the league, but Wallace was the best defensive player in the league, Billups was a top-5 point guard, and Hamilton and Rasheed were both in the 5-10 range at their position. They had four highly legit talents. wallace was definitely not a top 5 player at the time, the only argument you have is billups could qualify as a top 5. Piston won with 4 above average players, and 1 great player. There was no elite player on that team. You can even argue that the spurs team in 2003 won with only 1 elite player, that year Manu was only a rookie, Parker was not any better than mo williams, David Robinson was in worse shape than shaq. Duncan was the only elite player on the team and that team was dominating. In 2005 Finals run, Spurs again only had the big three in Duncan, Parker and Manu. Parker and Manu being borderline allstars, similar to Mo Williams and Jamison, if not worse. 2007, you can argue the same case for the Spurs, though Ginobili and Parker became very good players that year. I am sick of people defending Lebron because he didn't have help. He had a multiple time all star in Jamison, an 20-9 threat on a nightly basis with good range, Mo Williams, a sharp shooter and replacement Allstar, one of the best defensive big man in the league in Varejao, a fading but still overpowering Shaq, and other solid role players in West, Moon, Hickson and so on. That team was as good if not better than the 2003, 2005 Spurs, and better than the 2005 pistons. It's funny that when the Cavs acquired Jamison, the whole bleeping media goes like oh Jamison is the best player James has played with, pairing him with Lebron, Shaq, and Mo will make the Cavs favorite to win the East and possibly get them past the Lakers, but when they lost in the second round, people had to again make excuses for him for not having a great team. like reading Woj's article earlier, Lebron knows he can't win on his own, he can't be the main guy on a Championship team, he needs a closer, and that guy is Wade. What a wuss.

QUOTE (Palehosefan @ Jul 9, 2010 -> 09:12 AM) You can always fill out the roster with veteran minimum contracts. LBJ + Wade + Bosh + Miller + Chalmers should be around 56M. From what I understand, the Heat could offer someone like Ilgauskas or Raja Bell 2M and then fill out the rest of the roster with veteran minimums and the 2nd round pick's. ya, even if they have 5 players now, 7 spots will have holds on it, minimum contracts are around $500K, they are now over cap from what i understand.

can someone tell me how the heat manage to sign miller for $30 million, presumably $5 million the first season? the big 3 and chalmers takes about $51 millions. that plus 8 cap holds will not be enough for them to sign a $5 million contract. This is really screw up that the heat is taking away everyone's free agent this offseason. I hope the big 3 gets injured all at the same time and they have to sport their lineup of scrubs.

QUOTE (Thunderbolt @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 10:27 PM) You guys gotta read this. Dan Gilbert is pissed. http://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/gilbert_letter_100708.html Imagine if that was mark cuban, he would have cursed all over the letter, piss on it them book a one hour special on espn to curse lebrons ass off

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 10:24 PM) One thing that bothers me about all the LeBron bashing is this... Who among us would be ripping on LeBron if the three had them had chosen the Bulls instead to pull this off with? I can only imagine the ingenuity that would be on display in defense of LeBron, had that been the case... chicagoans like to suck on sour lemons

QUOTE (RME JICO @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 10:15 PM) Really? Since the Bulls won their last championship, only 5 other teams have won (LA, BOS, DET, SA, and MIA). Detroit brought in a bunch of vets to win theirs, Miami brought in Shaq, Mourning, and Payton to win theirs, BOS did the same. Baseball has 5 different champs the last 5 years, football 5 in the last 6 years, and hockey 5 in the last 5 years. The NBA has only had 7 different champions since 1983 (27 years) and 8 since 1979 (31 years). <!--quoteo(post=2203575:date=Jul 8, 2010 -> 08:58 PM:name=Balta1701)--> QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 08:58 PM) <!--quotec-->I really thought like it was actually going in a positive direction the last few years. New crop of young stars taking over from the old ones, some of the referee problems from earlier this decade were at least starting to clean up, different teams putting it together, etc. ype. three douchebags getting together and decide they will play together, that will only shift the balance of power even more. some teams are just irrelevant nowadays.

QUOTE (thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 10:06 PM) So I was looking to see who the Bulls could add to the SG spot next season, and I found out that the league is really short of good shooting guards at the moment. After Wade, Kobe, Roy, Johnson and maybe Manu who you can call perennial all stars, the list of consistent performers are short and weak. Here are the top 10 players in PER last season. There are only 19 players who registered 15.00 or better PER last season, which is the placement of an average player, that is the lowest since the establishment of PER in 2002. and number 6 Beaubois is really a point guard who plays 12 minutes a game. 1 Dwyane Wade, MIA 77 36.3 .562 19.5 9.8 33.2 4.5 11.1 7.9 28.10 733.4 24.4 2 Manu Ginobili, SAS 75 28.7 .584 23.4 9.7 25.2 3.8 11.6 7.7 22.54 386.5 12.9 3 Kobe Bryant, LAL 73 38.8 .545 15.2 9.7 30.5 3.1 12.2 7.7 21.95 484.3 16.1 4 Brandon Roy, POR 65 37.2 .568 18.3 7.7 25.5 3.7 10.9 7.3 21.36 392.2 13.1 5 Joe Johnson, ATL 76 38.0 .538 18.3 7.2 25.3 3.0 11.4 7.1 19.33 380.1 12.7 6 Beaubois, DAL 56 12.5 .617 16.4 12.0 23.0 2.0 10.7 6.4 18.59 81.4 2.7 7 Jamal Crawford, ATL 79 31.1 .573 14.7 8.5 24.4 1.6 8.0 4.8 18.50 282.8 9.4 8 Andre Iguodala, PHI 82 38.9 .535 23.6 10.9 21.4 3.0 16.8 9.8 17.82 348.8 11.6 9 Marcus Thornton, 73 25.6 .550 9.9 6.6 23.0 4.4 8.9 6.6 17.50 187.3 6.2 10 Vince Carter, ORL 75 30.8 .541 15.8 7.1 23.3 1.7 12.6 7.3 17.11 227.9 7.6 A lot of people on this list are closing in on 30 years old if not over, so we are witnessing the decline of this position the downfall of former all stars T-mac, iverson, Allen, Carter, Michael Redd, Finley, and Stackhouse without any young and prominent shooting guard coming into the league. the death of the midrange game, the post game, the lack of good power forwards and shooting guards. Just another reason why the NBA is no longer what it used to be. that, plus three douchebags getting together before free agency starts to decide that they are playing together next season, that really killed the league and it's becoming a joke more and more

So I was looking to see who the Bulls could add to the SG spot next season, and I found out that the league is really short of good shooting guards at the moment. After Wade, Kobe, Roy, Johnson and maybe Manu who you can call perennial all stars, the list of consistent performers are short and weak. Here are the top 10 players in PER last season. There are only 19 players who registered 15.00 or better PER last season, which is the placement of an average player, that is the lowest since the establishment of PER in 2002. and number 6 Beaubois is really a point guard who plays 12 minutes a game. 1 Dwyane Wade, MIA 77 36.3 .562 19.5 9.8 33.2 4.5 11.1 7.9 28.10 733.4 24.4 2 Manu Ginobili, SAS 75 28.7 .584 23.4 9.7 25.2 3.8 11.6 7.7 22.54 386.5 12.9 3 Kobe Bryant, LAL 73 38.8 .545 15.2 9.7 30.5 3.1 12.2 7.7 21.95 484.3 16.1 4 Brandon Roy, POR 65 37.2 .568 18.3 7.7 25.5 3.7 10.9 7.3 21.36 392.2 13.1 5 Joe Johnson, ATL 76 38.0 .538 18.3 7.2 25.3 3.0 11.4 7.1 19.33 380.1 12.7 6 Beaubois, DAL 56 12.5 .617 16.4 12.0 23.0 2.0 10.7 6.4 18.59 81.4 2.7 7 Jamal Crawford, ATL 79 31.1 .573 14.7 8.5 24.4 1.6 8.0 4.8 18.50 282.8 9.4 8 Andre Iguodala, PHI 82 38.9 .535 23.6 10.9 21.4 3.0 16.8 9.8 17.82 348.8 11.6 9 Marcus Thornton, 73 25.6 .550 9.9 6.6 23.0 4.4 8.9 6.6 17.50 187.3 6.2 10 Vince Carter, ORL 75 30.8 .541 15.8 7.1 23.3 1.7 12.6 7.3 17.11 227.9 7.6 A lot of people on this list are closing in on 30 years old if not over, so we are witnessing the decline of this position the downfall of former all stars T-mac, iverson, Allen, Carter, Michael Redd, Finley, and Stackhouse without any young and prominent shooting guard coming into the league. the death of the midrange game, the post game, the lack of good power forwards and shooting guards. Just another reason why the NBA is no longer what it used to be.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 09:45 PM) Mario Chalmers doesn't count as a PG? chalmers will be there, but he won't get any handles, nor any other starting PG for that matter. Since lebron and wade aren't terrific three point shooters, why not put a sharp shooter in the starting 5 if that is the case. chalmers is only decent at best.

when was the last time a team features a SG and a SF who can average 5 assists per game? I dont think the heats would need a starting point guard next season, they would need a three point shooter. Probably like Kyle Korver or JJ Reddick. They will probably operate without a starting point guard next year.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 05:15 PM) Last post on this... Bosh is WAY better at the power forward spot than Deng. Vinny played Deng at the 4 a fair amount, and it didn't go so well. Bosh is not a great defender, but you can do a lot worse than 10 boards and a block from your PF spot, and it's not just because he plays at the 4. I don't really care if he's a "traditional power forward" since those barely exist anymore. He's plenty effective in that role. The raptors felt the same way you did, and end up finishing last in the league in defense. If you have a big who can't defend, you are forced have another good defensive big man, which the raptors didn't. If they had a better than defensive PF, and put bosh at SF instead of turk, they may fare a lot better on defense, while virtually still getting the same production from bosh. I agree Bosh is a better PF than Deng. He is more talented thus makes more money. And lastly, I am gladly you felt the same way I did that Bosh is not a traditional big man and is more of a traditional small forward than anything.

QUOTE (SoxFan562004 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 04:55 PM) sounds like ESPN is fearing their ratings weren't going to be crazy tonight and sent one of their lap dogs to stir some interest the thing is, if ESPN really wants to boost their rating, why do they kill all the mystery by letting the world know where he stands now? it really kills a lot of interest right? especially in Chicago and new york. Though, if like 2 hours before the show starts, they report that Lebron had a change of heart and is leaning towards Chicago or new york, it would get really interesting and boost their ratings dramatically.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 04:28 PM) I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the guy averaging 20-9 on his career while shooting 49% from the floor is a big man. How many small forwards that aren't named Larry Bird or Elgin Baylor have ever put up a line like that? Maybe a few other combo forwards like Marion or Wallace, but they both play/played inside a lot. He doesn't shoot 3's, he doesn't defend perimeter players (and probably shouldn't outside of a switch on a pick and roll), he starts his drives from the high post (not at the top of the arc or on the wings like a perimeter player), well over 40% of his attempts come in the basket area, which you can only say about like 4 perimeter players (all of which have no shooting ability), and he draws 8 FT's a game which is generally reserved for big men or really, really good penetrators (which he's not). About the only thing in the small forward column is that he's a decent ball-handler for his size and he can shoot mid-range jumpers, but you can say that about a lot of big men. Your team is in deep s*** if he's your starting SF, but he's one of the top-10 big men in the league at PF. there is a new breed of combo forwards nowadays, and bosh is one of them, he can play the big man, but he is really a small forward. you listing all those stats is nice, but he is putting up those big man stats i.e. good rebounding and close shots %, only because he plays the power forward. There is no denying that he also have the attributes of a small forward (ie midrange game, range out to 3, good slasher, no strength, not a good post defender), and his "little man skills" are better than his big man skills, which really makes him a combo forward playing the 4. Hell, if you throw luol deng at the 4, he could get your 18 and 9 easily, while shooting lot of close shots. He is a versatile player, i'll give you that, but he really fits the bill of a small forward more than a big man, just because he is playing PF and is putting up numbers like a big man, doesn't mean he is a traditional big man.

if Lebron does choose Miami, then the local TV stations in Cleveland might as well just air the Miami games next year. Hey, the fans will still see Lebron on TV, and they won't know if that's Jermaine O'neal instead of Anderson Varejao. besides, who would want to watch the Cavs if Lebron isn't there.

QUOTE (Real @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 04:03 PM) miami is gonna be his destination, ive convinced myself BronBron is terrified and nervous according to what ive read from people who are reporting from wherever he is right now, bball camp or w/e Cleveland is gonna fall off the map he is terrified!?!! he doesn't have to be. i would love to read your source lol

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 04:04 PM) You are being quite ridiculous. No small forward gets 46% of their shots in the basket area, not even Lebron. If you want to argue that an elite power forward in recent years plays more like a SF, it's clearly Dirk or Garnett since neither of them have been over 30% in the basket area in recent years. You're basically trying to penalize him for being a more versatile offensive player. dirk is a traditional European player, he is white, he doesn't have the athleticism, i have nothing to say to that. Garnett plays like a small forward on offense, but is an excellent defensive big man, while bosh does neither. there is no point of going further here. just make a list to yourself the attributes of a big man, and the attributes of a small forward, and ask yourself if bosh's attribute fits a small forward more than a big man.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 03:41 PM) It's stupid because NO big man would be as effective down low if you subtracted several inches from their height. So Bosh gets penalized because he can hit jumpers and handle the ball a bit? He's still WAY more dangerous down low than any small forward not named Lebron, and he rebounds just fine for the position. He's a power forward all the way. charles barkley and elton brand says hi. players will be less effective on the post IF they are shorter, but bosh has the size, but still isn't great at the post, and plays like a small forward. He is a oversized small forward. Just sayin...

QUOTE (whitesoxfan99 @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 03:38 PM) Yet he draws fouls at a much higher rate than Boozer so he gets to the line more and have you watched the Jazz? Boozer gets a ton of his shots at the rim off of the pick and roll and put backs not from low post moves. yes, he also uses his strength to back down and get close inside shots, easy layups, turn around jumpers, and occasional hook shots. Is it safe to say he is a more traditional big man then Bosh and a better low post scorer of the two. Yes. Why discount him for pick and rolls? Amar'e used it a lot with Nash, that doesn't take anything away from him.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 03:19 PM) LOL, that is one of the dumber things I've seen. Shaq wouldn't be a center if he weren't 7'1" 300 pounds either! KG and Sheed are definitely better defenders and rebounders, that doesn't mean that they still don't have a very thin build. Amare is bigger, but plays very soft up front and isn't a good rebounder. None of the power forwards in this class can defend the post or block shots. Lee, Boozer, Amare and Bosh are all below-average defenders. As for the comment that he doesn't play down low, that's just crap. 46% of his shots came in the basket area and he converted over 60% of them. He does just fine down low. Is it really that hard to comprehend? If he wasn't 6'10, he is a pure small forward BECAUSE he doesn't have the skills sets of a traditional big man. If Shaq wasn't 7'1 and 300lb, he still is a great low post scorer, knows how to use his strength, and got a highly accurate hook shots. if bosh is 6'8 weighs 230, plays like the way he is, he would something similar to luol deng. Other players have the size and skillsets, bosh only has the height, not the weight nor skillsets. you sure do know your stats man, but if you watched his game, he is also a better slasher than most big man in the league. He got most of his 46% inside shots from layups, drives to baskets. He can play the post, but just isn't very good at it.

part of boozer's problem is he plays with Okur, so it's not like he's getting alot of help either. When he plays with Noah and Taj, they will take the better low post player, so i think boozer will handle his defensive assignment alright. Of the trio of Bosh Amare and Boozer, Boozer is also the best rebounder and low post scorer, so I will take him for what he is worth.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 03:04 PM) Well if Shaq said it it must be true! Does that mean Garnett is an oversized SF then? What about Rasheed Wallace? Amare? A lot of power forwards aren't really low-post bangers anymore. KG looks like a paper man, but he can defend, block shots, and rebound as well as anyone in the league in his haydays. Sheed is very good low post defender, block shots and good strength. Amare is stronger than bosh, more athletic, and got 20lbs on him. Bosh can't defend the post, can't block shots, doesn't have the strength, nor is he a gifted low post scorer. He is 6'10 and weight 230lbs, he plays on the perimeter and shoots a lot of midrange jumpers. Yes, he would be a small forward if he wasn't 6'10

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 02:41 PM) Bosh is better because he's a better player, PER is what you use to try to back that up. He is a better offensive player than Boozer and is more mobile. Also, any expert in the league will tell you that Bosh is a better player, and that Boozer isn't even a top-5 player at his position. I lost track of where else this was going, other than laughing at your general "Bosh is an overrated SF that had a career year" point. I said Bosh was an oversized small forward who is also a good rebounder.. Bosh is the rupaul of basketball. That's what shaq said.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 01:51 PM) Minutes played are obviously a major consideration. There's a big difference in posting a 20-plus in 38 MPG and doing it in 20 MPG. Chris Bosh has consistently been one of the most efficient big men in the league in heavy minutes. He's a very good offensive player that is effective on the glass. People argue Kobe over Lebron because he has Pau Gasol and wins more, that doesn't mean Kobe's a better player. The team around you has a huge impact on your individual standing. Pau Gasol got basically all of the same crap thrown at him as Bosh did now when he was with Memphis, now you don't hear any of that because he landed in a much better situation. I never argued that Bosh is a good defender, guys have their own strengths and weaknesses. Bosh doesn't have a ton of bulk, so he needs some help doing the dirty work inside. Pairing him with Bargnani up front is just asking him for trouble, pairing him with someone like Perkins or Noah would drastically improve things. It's not Bosh's fault they had a poorly constructed roster. Howard is one of the best defenders in the league so of course their defense is decent. He's an awesome defender and the rest of their team is fairly average. I don't see how that is relevant in any way since Howard is clearly better than Bosh and isn't on any of the teams in question. Players that can single-handedly improve an entire defense are rare. huh? what? I am talking about individual skills sets, not winning. Any team Bosh was on sucked, end of argument. 4 Years ago, Lakers were crap team, Kobe is averaging 35 ppg, people crown him as the best in the league. Now it's a debate between Lebron and Kobe, and yet their PER is drastically different. It's could be the same debate with Bosh and Boozer. You can't necessarily say Bosh is better than Boozer just because of PER, it doesn't measure accurately. It also depends on the team you are on, the style of basketball you play, the competition you played against, and the efficiency on defense, any type of clutch plays, how they fare in the playoffs. You can't measure any of those with PER. So to say Bosh is better than Boozer because he consistently puts up better PER is faulty.

QUOTE (ZoomSlowik @ Jul 8, 2010 -> 12:14 PM) Um, what? That isn't remotely true. Bosh has put up a PER north of 22 for five straight seasons (a total Boozer has only reached once) while averaging at least 22-9 every year during that stretch. As for the Toronto part, have you looked at their roster? They're playing a small forward at center, of course their defense sucks. Put him on a team that doesn't have a lot of soft, jump-shooting European players and their defense would improve. PER is nice advanced stats, but it's not what separates a good player from a bad player. Marrese Speights had a PER of close to 20 in his rookie year, does that mean he is the rookie of the year over Rose? Kobe's PER is always far from Lebron's, why do people argue Kobe over Lebron? You can't compare two players base on their stats and PER. Stats don't measure intangibles. Yes, Deng and Beasley have similar numbers, but 95% people will tell you they will rather have Deng over Beasley. the Magic had a great defensive team over the past two seasons, and the guys like Lewis, Carter, Nelson, Turkolu aren't remotely close to being great defensive players. It was all due to Howard's inside presence. Bosh was surrounded by subpar defensive players, but it's no excuse to finish last in the league in defensive efficiency. If you have watched any of the Raptors game, he is not physical defender, not a good help defender, nor does he block shots. He is not a good defender. Period.