The Ultimate Champion

The guy is paid a lot of money to play baseball. It's not like he's been driving jerry reinsdorf around in a limo all day, kissing his feet, shining his shoes, cutting his steak for him, etc. It's also not like he's been selling hotdogs in the stands. Don't feel too sorry for him. The only reason Jose is still here is because Hahn never was offered a haul for him. If that had happened, he'd have been gone a long time ago. He's been a good player and a great leader on a shitty team. Now he should go win elsewhere. I like Abreu a lot, but I want to see him traded. I want the Sox to give ABs to someone else who they can make a decision on. I want the Sox to get prepared for 2021. Get started now. Can Collins actually develop an approach? I'm impressed with the speed of his bat and how long he can see the ball, but he has no approach at all. Something has to give there. Even giving AJ Reed a shot, that's fine also. It's also fine to put Eloy there a bit, give Yermin Mercedes a shot, etc. It's fine to use the DH slot to rest people and make some decisions on our 4th OF going forward (i.e. Engel vs. Cordell). There are some ways to use Jose's ABs that at least help the decision making process this year. Then, next year, hopefully we'll have a couple prospects to bat there until Vaughn arrives, but I think Vaughn may be a midseason guy in 2020. Get some more pieces for Abreu, move on, etc.

Seriously, legit question: let's say this deal is actually feasible (I would be skeptical): Gio + Bummer for Pache, Anderson, Wright, Folty. Does anyone actually not pull the trigger on that? I do so immediately, jumping up and down and just elated, overjoyed, thrilled and absolutely optimistic about the Sox future.

If I could get Pache + Wright + Anderson for Gio I would drive him to the airport. If I could get Pache + Wright + Anderson + Folty for Gio + Bummer I would drive them both to the airport. ATL's system beats the holy dogshit out of the Sox system and now we all get to see why. Before when there were questions about whose system was better, the answer was always ATL because of the depth. The Sox system was front-loaded due to the big 3 trades. But other than that, the Sox system has been bad. Madrigal, Robert, and Vaughn seem to be the only "jewels" of the Sox farm after Tim Anderson came through. ATL has a bunch of guys who we'd be nuts about if we had them on our side. As far as what is "sustainable", I will say this: 1) Our FO is not going to hand out big money 5+ year contracts to TOR starters. It will not happen. 2) The only way for us to get 5+ year control TOR SPs is to a) trade for them, or b) draft them. In the case of a, we do not have the depth on the farm to make that happen. We do not have enough impact pieces. We actually need all of our pieces, specifically Madrigal, Robert, and Vaugh, to pan out, along with a full recovery from Kopech, and we need Kopech and Cease to pan out, too. We also need Reynaldo to take a big step forward. I think the kind of deal I am advocating, most GMs would not want to make. But AA is the guy who took on like 800 billion dollars and sent 47 players to the Marlins for half their team, and he's the same guy who traded for Donaldson, Tulo, etc. and he traded Noah Syndergaard for RA Dickey for fucks sake. He seems to be just like Dave Dombrowski is, when it comes to wanting to make that really big deal. And as far as what is sustainable in contention, man, I do not know how people can be so optimistic about the Sox ATM. We are offense-heavy, and we really need our few big-time SP pieces to all hit. And then even if that all happens, we do not have the depth to make a few big deals. I do not want to jump into the gun fight a year too early with half a clip of bullets. I'd rather jump in a year later with a whole pile of ammo. If we try to contend too early and lose -- just like we should expect, because we do not have enough pitching -- then we trap our selves in a spot where we can't act. Once you start to "win," you can't stop, backtrack, and do more "rebuilding." I personally do not think we have enough pieces yet, and I don't think the farm is strong on the bottom. I would not be interested in trading players like Sheets at all, and dealing away the few guys who might turn into something. I'd rather keep adding to the picture for at least 1 more season. Then, go into 2021 looking for a deep playoff run. If you traded Gio this year for 2 guys who debuted for you this year, 2021 could still be Kopech and Cease's 2nd full season, and Reynaldo's 4th full season, and then the 2 guys you get would be in their 2nd full season also. That's a winning formula IMO. Also I just think that if AA is willing to put Pache on the table that's a move we need to try to make. An OF of Pache-Robert in CF-RF has the potential to be amazing.

^Oops. Well, I still stand by my major point: Abreu's value to the Sox is nowhere near what his value would be to another team that believes he helps them get into the playoffs.

"He is far more valuable to the Sox than any other team right now due to what he provides the clubhouse." I see this a lot. But it is not true, especially in the case of Boston. The value of Boston getting back into the playoffs in Mookie's walk year and after the Sale extension and Eovaldi deal, etc., is way, way, more important to Boston than Jose's leadership values are to the Sox. Dombrowski knows he needs to get back to the playoffs this year. The value of Abreu in that middle of the order is going to be worth giving up something from the farm that is far away, for sure. This season is a really, really big deal for Boston. If they miss the playoffs, their fans aren't going to be happy, and it's not going to be getting a whole lot easier to win that division in the future with the way their young players are getting paid.

As I said above, I would trade for Russell just to DFA him. He is salary. The key is that you help the Cubs out by taking on some bad salary and keeping them under the tax. You give them useful players. In Chatwood's case, you take on his 2020 season and give them more FA room. In turn, you try to get some talent. Other salary ideas with Boston which someone else mentioned is Castillo. Also they have Pearce. Yasmany Tomas in AZ might get you something. I would love to buy low on Jeff Hoffman but I don't know how we make a deal with them as a noncontender. Taking on Ian Desmond's contract? I would not touch Wade Davis' contract with a 10 ft. pole.

Do you guys really, honestly believe he is worth nothing? It was reported last year that the Astros strongly considered giving up Martes for Avi, even though Avi was having a very disappointing season overall. And I know Avi is an OF etc etc but he's not exactly a GGer out there, and his value was mostly in his bat, I think both Boston and Houston would like to have him. I am not a pro scout, etc., but I am going to bet that the Sox have guys who know the lower levels of both Boston and Houston's farm very well, and I can't imagine there isn't an interesting upside-type player out there for Abreu. His power numbers are very good and in a tougher lineup he's especially going to be a force. I'd take Groome from Boston, and I'm not sure what HOU has to offer, but I would take pitching. I think there is a bit of truth to the "leadership" talk. I also think there's a lot of bullshit in that speak, which is a GM trying to let it be publicly known that he wants some better offers. But of the truth of the leadership talk, I am going to guess that the Sox (at least hopefully) don't want TA to be the "clubhouse leader," and that Yoan (who I would imagine is the guy they ideally would want to be the clubhouse leader) isn't really the type to do it. And of course McCann has only been here half a season and is only under control for 1 more season. I do wonder if, legitimately, the Sox think about Robert coming up, and they want Abreu to kind of temper his enthusiasm a bit and not let him get a superstar attitude going when he gets here. Obviously TA isn't going to do anything to stop that, and if Yoan isn't that type of leader, maybe they feel they need Abreu to stick around and keep the next wave of kids coming up in check. Still, even if there is some truth to that above, they should be able to bring a guy in over the offseason for that purpose, and the manager is supposed to be able to handle that stuff.

This is the last thread I am going to make for now. Simple poll. I answered Yes all 3 times. I love Jose's contributions but his leadership -- if necessary -- should be replaced by a veteran bench player, like an Ian Kinsler in a bench role, or something like that. We don't need to give him ABs any more. He shouldn't be the 1B or DH on the next Sox team that contends for a pennant IMO.

Any thought of giving up a bunch of relievers for a guy with less than 5.5 years control who is going to be in arbitration before we're a threat to win a title is a very bad idea. We need to definitely not go after Benintendi. Our relievers should be shopped for multiple prospects who have higher ceilings as position players, starting pitchers, or closers. We need a Luzardo, Felipe Vazquez, we need to find a Van Wagonen or whatever to give us a Kelenic, etc. Also I am going to guess that if Benintendi is out there, Dombrowski is trying to get an ace similar to trading Austin Jackson in the Price deal or similar to the Cespedes for Lester deal. He's probably trying to get creative for a big name SP. We do not have that unless we talk Gio, and there is no way I would trade Gio to Boston with their system the way it is. I would however be interested in picking up Groome from them. We can eat Pearce's shitty deal, give them Goins who would be useful for them, and some other small pieces if necessary, on top of an Abreu deal. Groome's ceiling is worth it if he's healthy, though the more we would add, the more pieces we would need back. And I am actually unhappy to see them DFA Nunez because his bad deal and Pearce's bad deal would have been a good start to an Abreu deal.

List some bad contract deals that you would like to see but which you know will almost never be considered by our shitty ownership. I will start with Tyler Chatwood. The Cubs have some interesting young pitching further away on the farm, most notably Brailyn Marquez. They also have a lot of needs. I would be interested in assuming Chatwood and Russell, and then DFAing Russell, to basically pick up Marquez. I think the Cubs could really use Leury, Jay, and our relievers, though I don't know what the price should be. If I could get Marquez by taking on that salary and giving up 2 or even all 3 of Leury, Jay, and Marshall or Fry I would do that, but would probably want a smaller piece in return. Anyway, I think Chatwood is a decent bet to get "fixed" enough to bring back some value as a closer next deadline. Maybe a top-15-20 guy in a good system and half a season's salary relief could be had if we put Chatwood in the closers role for about a year and worked with him a bit.

Seriously let's say you are AA and the guy in Detroit is asking for Ian Anderson and Folty plus for Boyd and Greene. Really? If that kind of talk is on the table, I am putting Gio out there who actually has the pedigree and I'm putting Colome and Bummer on the table also. Similarly, imagine being the Dodgers and you're getting told you'll have to give up the world for some rentals in SF. If I were them I'd rather go for a big fish. Legitimately, if you are a contender, what is out there this year pretty much sucks and it looks like you're really going to have to overpay for the rentals. This is a bad year for the Sox to not have much good to sell, IMO.

So I would like to see the Sox try to make 2 megadeals: (1) Giolito + 1 or both of Colome + Bummer to the Braves **only***. I would try to get Pache, Anderson, and 3 more players which would be 2 SPs and an OF like Waters, or 3 SPs. I am not interested in doing this trade with another team, unless the Rays want to get kinda crazy. That said, the Braves are led by AA who was the guy that made a whole pile of huge moves in Toronto, and just seems to love this kind of deal. (2) Anderson to LAD or MIL for a haul. I am not sure if there are other fits, but I am a little bit tired of watching Anderson's act and I definitely believe he could be replaced in a way that only makes the team better. I wouldn't trade him for scraps, but from the Dodgers, Anderson for Lux + Ruiz + May is a nice deal. I think TA's general bullshit fits well in LA with the rest of the general bullshit they do out there. Oh and May would have to shave that ugly mop here which is great. From the BrewCrew, I bet they would give up Turang and pitching. Ashby as a 3rd piece sounds interesting to me.

I think the Sox should make another megadeal. Here are my reasons: 1) The Sox need impact starting pitching. 2) The Sox do not have impact starting pitching down on the farm. 3) Most likely, the Sox will need 6-8 impact starting pitching prospects who are near-MLB ready in order to get 4 SPs who are #3s or better, and then probably one will end up as a reliever. 4) The Sox will not spend big money and years on an impact SP in free agency. There is another thread that suggests otherwise but as far as I know the same trash that has been running things is still running things, so yeah, that's not happening, 5) The contention window can not reasonably be expected to begin until at least 2021. It is unreasonable to expect Kopech returning from TJ and Cease, both in their first full years, to anchor a rotation that competes legitimately into October. It is stupid to even expect that. Reasonably, we have to assume these guys will be learning and developing while stuck on innings limits. 6) I do not even want to try to contend until 2021, for the above reasons. I would like to officially "contend" when the team has a legitimate shot at winning a WS. I don't want to see a young bunch of tired and overthrowing young pitchers trying to turn a seasonal overachievement into something impossibly more. I'd rather lose the divison in 2020 and come out of ST in 2021 after a big offseason looking to win a title, with the young core freshly rested, healthy, experienced, and hungry. I believe that this rebuild shouldn't be "rushed across the finish line" a year early, even though I expect it given the car full of clowns running the show here.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Sep 20, 2014 -> 05:01 PM) Good stuff there, Ultimate. TYVM! I will rate your profile 5 stars! Above in this thread hi8is mocked my long, essay-like posting habits so I'm glad someone at least reads them (other than caulfield who reads everything). But he's right though, my posts are seriously FRAT most the time. Oh well. I've been stuck in front of my computer a lot more than usual these last couple weeks having to/choosing to work on some things I'm not really that good at/don't want to do, and so I start on/resume something, then I just click on SoxTalk and start thinking about baseball and piss the time away. Then I get all in depth about it and really, it's just all an escape for me, when my brain doesn't want to focus on what it really needs to focus on (work, life) I open my browser and go here. But I really do need to stop posting here, I do it way too much now and really sports just don't matter anyway. I always know that, but then sometimes I f*** up and start thinking about baseball again. What a happy little escape sports are. I know I can't be the only one that thinks that way. So anyway I'm glad someone reads some of this s*** I type. It's funny because I think the nature of this thread dovetails fairly well with what I'm saying. Sports are so easy to be opinionated about, you can lash out at, defend, define, detail in depth, anything you like right on down the rabbithole until you're just lost in it. But it really doesn't matter. Matt Davidson really doesn't matter, neither did Reed, this trade like the majority of baseball trades, 10 years from now is porbably best described as a non-event. But holy s*** can these things be drug out into the open and beaten down into pulp & pudding. That's one thing I'm great at. Hahn's doing a fine job overall, nothing wrong with him at all, and there was never anything wrong with KW either IMO. But b****ing about it all and arguing over it all is at least something, it's at least engaging if not always fun, and seems a lot more benign in terms of its overall counterproductivity than it really is. It's just funny because no matter what there is so much depth in baseball and so much history and it's such a massive part of our culture that it's completely impossible to ever permanently resolve anything, like all these themes just keep repeating themselves year after year, and somehow the subject matter seems fresh when its really not. The game of baseball is really bottomless, but rather than a pit its more like a gopher hole where eventually you're right back on the surface looking at the same thing from a different vantage point. But it's just a total waste of time really. Maybe it's just best to be a casual fan, and never pay attention to anything, never look at anything in detail, because then you don't get sucked in. But then you could still get sucked into something else. Baseball is my little sickness but goddamn what a waste of time. At least its not video games & porn, or drugs or tv or something. Not as bad but still a waste of time. I've now just wasted whatever time it took my to type this, f*** it I'm going to make some coffee. So thanks for reading this stuff, I think I'm going to quit this site for a while. I'm sure Hahn is going to be really busy & if we're going to spend some money we've got a real shot at contention with Danks not in the rotation & Rodon in there instead. December will be fun.