ChiSox59

QUOTE (midway @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 12:54 PM) I agree with what you are saying here about what it would take to get for Chris Sale and many of the other posts here. There is one thing that hasn't been brought up and that is Boston thought they were getting a Ace last offseason when they signed David Price for 30+ million a year contract. I damn near fell out of chair when I saw that and it wasn't because I was a huge fan of Price. I think it just shows how much teams will pay for what they feel will be a true Ace. This and what Arizona paid for Zack Greinke which at the time I thought was one of the worst Free Agent contracts of all time. Right. That's a big reason why he's so valuable. Yah, he's a really freakin' good pitcher, but he also gives your team enormous payroll flexibility.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 11:40 AM) I don't think either of us really wants to have them mess this up by having them trade for whatever they can get. My point is mostly that a team like Boston is already a playoff caliber team. The White Sox haven't been close in years. They're the ones who need to make something happen way more than the Red Sox. The problem with trading for a Jackie Bradley Jr. type is that his value is very nearly that of Sale, and you might not be able to get much more out of the Red Sox other than him. I'm not sure that's the trade they need to be making right now, but it could make for an interesting retool on the fly situation. Jackie Bradley Jr's value is not anywhere near Sale, IMO. He's a nice first piece, but I'd still want 4 of their top prospects with him. JBJ, Beintendi, Devers, Kopech and Rodriguez. If they're unwilling to include JBJ, then take Moncada. The Red Sox are about to get knocked out of the playoffs in the first round because they have mediocre SP. There will be pressure to make a move, and there are no moves to be made on the FA market. That's called leverage.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 11:21 AM) The market appears good this offseason, but it also appeared good at the deadline. They weren't able to get what they were asking for then, and if they keep asking for the same players that they wanted then, I don't think they'll be able to get what they're asking for now. The Sox have had both of these players in their starting rotation since 2012, and have 0 playoff appearances to show for it. Maybe holding onto their assets will eventually result in a playoff appearance, but I'm not exactly holding my breath on it. Ultimately, as long as the Sox don't give up a bunch of draft picks this offseason, I'll be ok with whatever they do. I just don't consider them to be holding anything resembling an upper hand. Teams generally aren't going to trade meaningful pieces off the ML roster during a playoff hunt. Boston, for example, was probably unwilling to trade JBJ. I am sure the Sox want Betts (who wouldn't?), but that ship has sailed. Not to mention that teams not in contention probably aren't going to be interested at that point in time. I am not advocating for the Sox to hold onto assets for the hope of making the playoffs - though I do hope they supplement the roster with some pieces if they do indeed decide to hold Sale and Q for the time being - but moreso advocating for them maximizing the return they get on these guys. Making a trade to make a trade is the worst thing the Sox could do. They need to clean someones minor league system of all the top talent, not settle for 2nd tier guys because team X, Y or Z wasn't willing to trade their top young talent. Well guess what - then you're not getting Chris Sale, and you can keep running out your garbage back end starters or go and pay Jeremy Hellickson $55M over the next three years.

QUOTE (gatnom @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 10:40 AM) Yeah, with the organization in such a strong position, the Sox really have the upper hand here. Not sure if this is sarcasm or not, but let me break it down if it is. The Sox hold a top 3 pitcher in all of the game for 3 years @ $38M (last 2 are team options which increases value in case of injury). If Chris Sale were a free agent this winter, he'd likely sign a 7 or 8 year deal worth with an AAV north of $30M. Think about that. The Sox also hold a top 30 pitcher in the game (I tend to think he is better than that, but going conservative) for the next 4 years at $37.85M (last 2 are again team options). If Jose Quintana were a free agent this winter, he'd likely sign at least a 5 year deal worth no less than $100M (AAV of $20M), which again, is probably conservative. Think about that. The best free agent SP this winter are, in no particular order: Andrew Casher, Rich Hill, Jeremy Hellickson, Colby Lewis, Ivan Nova, and Edinson Volquez. The next tier is Brett Anderson, Bartolo Colon, RA Dicky, Doug Fister, Jake Peavy and Jered Weaver. Those are the top arms available, and the best one is maybe a #3 starter. These dudes are about to get PAID. Think about that. The Sox are in an absolutely wonderful position. Yes, it probably makes sense to trade these guys and start this rebuild. But they don't HAVE TO trade them. The Sox can sit back and ask for the moon, and they should. If you don't get what you want, you keep these guys who aren't breaking the bank and who's values are not going to diminish. Maybe no one will pay what it takes to get a Chris Sale - I mean when has a legitimate ace signed for 3 years at a 1/3 of what he'd get on the open market on an AAV-basis ever been traded? Its never happened. If you have to hold on to Sale for another year because the offers aren't what you want, you do that. That is without even mentioning their other extremely valuable assets in Adam Eaton and Carlos Rodon. The Sox are in a very unique position. I understand why some don't have faith that this front office has what it takes to execute this correctly. But this is the same front office that has given us each and every one of these assets. The fact that Sale and Quintana weren't traded last July when the market seemed primed was in all liklihood because they are asking for the moon. Be patient - the Sox absolutely NEED to hit home runs with these trades. The time will come, and hopefully when it does, it is because the Sox finally got what they are asking for, and not because they settled.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 08:12 AM) Every team could use Sale. To pin one start or so as the reason they would "need" him at virtuously any cost I just don't think is going to happen. Porcello and Price were awful. Hamels was awful. It does happen. To me the real question with Boston is Porcello really a top of the rotation guy, or did he just have everything go right for a career year? It is possible if Sale started for these teams in the postseason, everything still would have gone bad. He wasn't exactly lights out against Minnesota the last game of the year. It will be interesting to see if any team is willing to pay the White Sox price, and at what level the White Sox are willing to go to get a deal done. I still think most of these proposals are overstated. I know Shelby Miller cost a huge price, and Sale is a lot better and will cost a huge price. But everyone knew the Miller price was ridiculous, and it not working out for Arizona doesn't help the White Sox cause here. Whether it is correct or not, similar things effect each other. If Abreu sucked, the Cuban players behind him would have received a lot less money. If Kaz Matsui was as good as advertised, Iguchi would never have been available to the White Sox at a bargain rate. Trading Sale with his contract situation is pretty close to unprecedented. It's one reason why I think there is a cap on what teams would be willing to give up, and while the package would be huge, not as huge as using previous trades and adding Sale's increased value would make it. The Sox do hold the cards here. I don't think they're taking anything less than an overpay, and they shouldn't.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Oct 9, 2016 -> 10:27 AM) I think there is no chance the Red Sox trade both JBJ & Benintendi for Sale. They're simply not going to create two holes in their outfield. Meh. If we gave them Melky back that fills one hole. They have Brock Holt. They can always sign a FA. We're talking about one of the best 3 pitchers in the game here. We have the leverage. It's going to have to be painful for the Red Sox.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Oct 9, 2016 -> 10:06 AM) JBJ, Benintendi, Rodriguez, Devers and Kopech for Sale. Let the Red Sox keep Moncada, trade Devers who would then be blocked. Gives Sox Sales replacement in rotation in Rodriguez and another high upside arm in Kopech. Melky goes to DH. Sox OF defense is fantastic. That team could compete without Sale and signing a big time FA. Could even give them Melky in that deal if it gets it done. Resign Morneau or some other LH 1B/DH type. Id obviously prefer to keep Melky if they'd do that deal without him. Boston is going to want to make a big splash when they get swept today. Think this is a real possibility.

JBJ, Benintendi, Rodriguez, Devers and Kopech for Sale. Let the Red Sox keep Moncada, trade Devers who would then be blocked. Gives Sox Sales replacement in rotation in Rodriguez and another high upside arm in Kopech. Melky goes to DH. Sox OF defense is fantastic. That team could compete without Sale and signing a big time FA.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:07 AM) I hope the Red Sox sign him. Gotta replace the power somewhere. Or sign Desmond or Reddick. Then they deal us Benintendi in a deal to strengthen their rotation. The Red Sox are going to lose this series and be desperate. I think Benintendi, Moncada plus is a real possibility for Sale.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 09:56 AM) Not really. They had the same fWAR but Avila did so with less than 2/3 the PAs that Flowers had. Avila was clearly the superior player when healthy this year. Which is saying something....

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Oct 6, 2016 -> 04:22 PM) I don't believe he would have a draft pick attached to him if he chooses to opt out. I don't think that makes him eligible for a QO. Is that the case for sure? Seems to me more players would demand opt outs if it got them out of the QO.

MAde more sense last year when the Sox had a) a protected pack and b) Cespedes didn't have draft pick compensation tied to him. I just cannot see the Sox forfeiting the #12 pick all things considered.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Oct 6, 2016 -> 09:21 AM) I completely disagree. He's rebuilding. He's talked about how Sox fans are ready for it. He also said that "they've tried the adding FA route" to patch it together. Key word there is "tried". They don't have the pieces to move. He's also talked about how it's a poor free agent class. I'd be stunned if they gave up the 12th pick in the draft to sign a free agent as well. I think Sale gets moved early in the offseason and they go from there. I think you're probably right. I just hope Rick sticks to his guns on what he wants. No settling for Chris Sale. We need a g'damn ransom.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 5, 2016 -> 03:01 PM) No big surprise there. First year in forever that he was healthy, and he just fell on his face. Yah, he sucks.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Oct 5, 2016 -> 07:22 AM) Boston will not want Sale now that Porcello has emerged to join Price at the top of the rotation. They will want a 3-4 starter and bullpen pieces. They will probably trade Holt, Young or Shaw w some 2nd tier prospects to fill the few holes they have. They did move Moncada to 3B and Devers is behind him so they could move one of them if needed. Non sense. Every team in baseball "wants" Chris Sale. Rick friggin Porcello doesn't change that. Now only a few teams have what it takes to get him, and maybe they aren't willing to match that price, but that doesn't mean they don't want him.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 02:13 PM) It's still the same problem the White Sox have...they're not going to have enough offense if they trade Sano/Kepler AND they're not going to be able to afford to keep Dozier by signing him to an extension. Buxton played really well the second half and is untouchable in the sense his value is still lower than it was a year ago, where 75% of it is still potential, like the White Sox return would be for Carlos Rodon today. Let's say the offer was Sano, Berrios and Kepler/Rosario but no Buxton? That's going to do too much damage to their major league roster on the offensive side and only gives you a short window with the unaffordability going forward with Dozier. Sano, Berrios, and Kepler is a nice start, but they'd need to add more. Maybe a Kohl Stewart and Alex Kirilloff. I'd want Buxton as a part of any deal. Rosario sucks. Santana, Gibson, Hughes, May and Taylor Rogers are likely to be the rotation. In Rogers, they have their own potential hopes for a Sale-like breakout. It's a rotation that's still a bit short even with a Sale or Q inserted. No idea where you're getting your "sale-like breakout from Taylor Rodgers. That is comical stuff. And yes, their rotation would still suck. And you're missing Santiago. Isn't Suzuki a free agent? Yes. And that affects this how? Their lineup will be catcher, Buxton, Mauer, Dozier, Vargas, Grossman (will he repeat?), Polanco, Kepler/Rosario and Sano. If you believe that Vargas and Grossman are for real, maybe...but that lineup comes up short without Sano IMO. Do you honestly trust Kintzler as closer on a competitive team? Not sure what you're trying to convince me of here other than looking at MLB.com and listing off 75% of their roster. I don't think the Twins are good or will be good anytime soon. But they definitely aren't going to be good running out #5 or AAAA pitchers every 4/5 days. I just don't see a match because Berrios has some serious warts, they won't trade Buxton and Sano together, and they're going to try to push Kepler/Plouffe/Rosario/Vargas to the Sox as the third part of the deal...leaving it Sano, Berrios and Rosario for Sale. Who makes that particular trade? Even sending Nate Jones along doesn't get you Buxton...I just think there's too much downside risk for the Twins to trade Buxton and Sano together for a three year window when that would create too many other holes they don't have the payroll to fill, starting with the expected loss of Dozier after 2017 or 2018 (unless they sign him to an extension, his arbitration numbers will be huge based on this season.) For the third or fourth time - I don't think they'll trade these guys. It was just an idea of a team that would theoretically have the bullets that needs pitching. Lol - comments above.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 06:05 AM) Polanco was the name...I knew a P was in there somewhere. At any rate, they still don't have a SS unless Nick Gordon undergoes an amazing transformation. Right. Polanco is their SS. He's a back end top 100 guy and they like him. If you think they need a SS more than SP, I don't know what to tell you, but clearly you're not up to speed with their needs. I don't disagree that the Twins are unlikely to move Buxton/Sano/Berrios but again, its a team with interesting young offensive pieces that badly needs pitching. With an outsider now running the front office, perhaps he won't be as married to their prospects as the previous regime was. If they don't trade for controllable top of the rotation pitching, they're never going to get it.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 06:59 PM) Trading Buxton or Sano makes as much sense as the Sox dealing Anderson or Rodon. They need a good young SS more than they need to overpay for Sale or Q. Someone like Jean Segura was available to nearly every team in baseball for almost nothing...they went with Florimon/Escobar/Santana instead. At best, they'd offer Berrios (if they have, in fact, soured on him) and Kepler, who they'd be selling high on...and then one other piece, but an obvious match doesn't exist. The main problem is Sale would be leaving too early for their contention window, and Q just isn't returning the premium package because he's worth more to the Sox than other teams. As it is, they have to figure out how to pay Dozier and what to do with Plouffe. Pedro Florimon hasn't played for the Twins since 2014 when he had 70 ABs. I agree that the Twins probably won't trade Buxton or Sano, but they need pitching and they have peices to trade to get it. The Twins think they're closer to contention than you do (I tend to agree they're still a long way away), but again, that's mainly due to their horrific pitching. Like I said, probably not a fit there, but it's an out of the box trade partner whose needs match up.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:38 PM) A big problem with rebuilding this offseason is that a lot of the best prospects in the game right now are in rebuilding organizations. You can sit there and hope the Red Sox will trade a package of Benintendi, Moncada, Devers, etc., but they don't need to trade for pitching. The Dodgers don't really need to either honestly. The good teams have insulated themselves so they don't have to overpay. I dont see a ton of guys out there right now that are going to come up and be no doubt offensive studs. Would you trade a guy like Q to the Pirates for a deal centered around Austin Meadows maybe? Do you really foresee the Yankees trading a bunch of the guys they just acquired for an ace? This looks like a really bad situation the Sox are in. Hope Jerry is ready to break open that piggy bank. You rarely see huge trades amongst division rivals but you have to wonder if the Twins would get involved in Sale or Q bidding. They need pitching in a MAJOR way and have the bullets. Some of their top prospects/young players have lost a bit of their glimmer, but that may even help the Sox. Buxton, Sano, Berrios, Kepler, etc...plus some of the younger pieces that are still in the minors. Twins never going to be able to spend to acquire top of the rotation FAs so this would be a way. Twins had 5.40 ERA from their starters this year.. Long shot for sure, but an interesting trade partner.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:14 PM) It's not like they want to throw him out. It's just if a team wants to deal with the Sox for one of our two lefties, they would rather deal Sale. I don't argue with this at all. Just arguing that he is not a "clubhouse cancer". I think trading Sale over Q is the right move if you're just moving one for multiple reasons. I would, however, probably move both if you move one.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:10 PM) Are you sure that everyone in the clubhouse likes him? Would you like him causing a media sh*tstorm for your team and destroying your jersey with scissors? I doubt they gave a s*** about their jerseys. He's clearly a bit of a hothead, but his performance on the field far outweighs a few temper tantrums. Hell just a few weeks ago Rodon said (I am paraphrasing)..the Sox would be complete idiots to trade away Chris. I have learned a ton from him and he is one of the best pitchers in baseball. I obviously wouldn't expect one of his understudies to say he's a complete asshat and I hope he's traded, but I think the media took an easy story to run with and did just that. Chris is fine clubhouse guy that just wants to win.

QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:04 PM) Maybe the players don't, but what about management? Who gives a s*** what the suits think? He's not a clubhouse cancer in the traditional sense if the guys in the clubhouse like him. He may be a pain in KW's ass, but that doesn't make him a cancer.

QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 02:54 PM) Rodon should absolutely be a trade chip if you are unloading everyone Rodon is they type of guy you'd be hoping to get in deals. Trading him makes no sense. He has FIVE years of control left. Sale - 3 years Q - 4 years Rodon - 5 years

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 02:40 PM) That makes sense, especially since Sale is the power pitcher than many covet, he's something of a clubhouse cancer, and he's under team control for one season less than Q. I really, really, really don't think the Sox players view Chris as a clubhouse cancer.

QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 02:29 PM) If they go for it, I fully expect Carlos Gomez in CF I'd be fine with GoGo in CF even if they aren't clearly going for it. He's going to be relatively cheap, the man can go it in CF (or at least could), keeps Eaton in RF, and perhaps gives you a nice trade chip if he bounces back. He's OPSing .900 with Texas. I think he makes a ton of sense, outside of the fact he doesn't walk much (prior to SSS in Tex).