Lip Man 1

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 13, 2015 -> 06:19 PM) Loyal fans mean money when things aren't good. Wouldn't that be nice now. Loyalty is a two way street especially when you are dealing with a public trust. Baseball like business is a results orientated business. The results the last nine years speak for themselves. With MLB a nine billion dollar industry right now that's really the only thing the Sox don't have to worry about. They are making money rest easy on that score. I have this mental image of JR (like Nero) fiddling while the Sox (like Rome) are burning to the ground... Not a pleseant image on many levels. Mark

QUOTE (Lillian @ Oct 13, 2015 -> 02:26 PM) The off season last year clearly seemed to consist of a prioritized check list, which Hahn proceeded to check off. Unfortunately, he made a couple of bad choices. Moreover, unless you intend to meet every objective, with unlimited resources, wouldn't that almost necessitate that you prioritize? They filled some areas but the point I was trying to make was that it wasn't Hahn saying..."OK first thing we get a DH..." until then we don't do anything. "Second thing we get a starting pitcher..." etc. There is fluidity to an off season plan since no team has the power to control everything, get exactly what they want, when they want and in the order that they want. I'm sure this off season Kenny will tell Hahn what he expects and then we'll see if it happens or not. Mark

QUOTE (raBBit @ Oct 13, 2015 -> 03:26 PM) Hahn is a modern mind. Let him work. I agree he deserves his chance. Unfortunately until Kenny goes far away it's not happening (i.e. Kenny's public comments to the media this June which I found condescending and arrogant towards Hahn) Mark

QUOTE (raBBit @ Oct 13, 2015 -> 03:05 PM) Danks and LaRoche aren't currently FA's and I am aware of that, obvious typo there. My bad. I could have sworn that it was reported the Sox offered Samardzija a contract. Regardless, at face value, they were intent on at least vying for his services. He was a guy penned for a hundred million dollar contract prior to this season so they were aware of the expenditure's nature and that they had the ability to extend as much. I would have to see the offseason before I guessed on attendance but there are reasons to believe attendance will go down. I am not going to go into this quasi-accounting where year X's profit supposedly equals the succeeding year's maximum increase for operating cost. Nor am I going to take the Forbes numbers with any credence. The Sox have one of the most drastic capital/labor splits in baseball. We can't look at the numbers from 2011 and compare them to 2015 as if they are equal. You have to consider in 2011, after attendance went down 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010. In 2011, the Sox had their highest payroll ever at 128 million. 128 million in 2015 dollars is much less than 128 in 2015. When you factor in inflation, revenue sharing, national/local TV deals the average payroll increase significantly and steadily annually. Despite the payrolls and average player salary growing tremendously, the players share of revenue has decreased 33% over the last thirteen years. In the largest two year growth ever, the average MLB player salary is up to 4.2 million for the 2015 season. That's a 16.4% growth rate over two years on the average player salary. Despite that, players got a lesser share of revenue in both years! Owners are raking in the money. This is a huge issue for the MLBPA with the CBA expiring after 2016. It's not a matter of whether the Sox have the money to spend, it's a matter of whether the Sox choose to spend the money and to what extent. I don't remember seeing anything specific but I thought I read around mid season where Hahn was quoted as saying along the lines that the Sox wanted to keep Shark and talked but the agent said he was going through the free agent process. He was quoted directly on that. I don't think it ever actually got to the point where a formal offer was made. Again that's just from memory. Mark

QUOTE (raBBit @ Oct 13, 2015 -> 02:36 PM) What exactly have they tried to do? 1st point: They've never signed a free agent over 68 million. I suggest one big signing so you're offbase there. 2nd point: Who have they sign that is like Steve Pearce? I guess Andruw Jones after '09 would be similar despite difference in name value but Jones worked out well so why complain about that? 3rd point: If you're referring to Q, Sox have never sold high on a pitcher of his pedigree like I would be open to considering. Buehrle was kept for sentimental reasons which I agreed with. I wanted them to trade Danks and Floyd, they never did it. They got zero value for both of them. 4th point: The Sox have no presence in South America. They were screwed by Kenny's put that retarded the process all the way up to a few years ago. They considered ditching investing in the South American market as a whole. So I am not trying to be sarcastic or snide when I ask you what exactly they have been doing the last nine years that would be a parallel to my post? The situation the Sox find themselves in is a result of Kenny Williams' complete disregard for the CBA and the inability to produce position players. If the Sox correct themselves there, which I think Hahn can do, they will be in a better position. My plan is for the immediate future. What they've done the last nine years that is comparable to your points in my opinion is to try to toe the middle line between tearing it down to the foundation and starting over or going for it regardless of cost. That was what I was trying to say. I continue to believe that the 'middle ground' is like the Twilight Zone, just keep spinning wheels and hoping for success. Nothing against your points per se, they are solid. I just think trying to "rebuild while contending" simply does not work and I want the Sox to fully commit to go one way or the other and see what happens. The don't appear to have the money or the desire to sign a bunch of top level free agents (assuming they are even available) and they seem to be deathly afraid of tearing it all down and starting over. Bottom line, I don't think they know what they want to do or can do and are trying to go someplace in the middle...which again according to the last nine years does not work. Mark

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 13, 2015 -> 02:52 PM) Sure, load up the bandwagon. Bandwagon fans means more money for the franchise to spend (hopefully) at least part of it on getting good players to keep coming in and continuing winning baseball. Mark

Surprised they are that high given the last nine years from falling attendance, to winning seasons to TV ratings. Mark

QUOTE (raBBit @ Oct 13, 2015 -> 02:12 PM) I think some people want the Sox to tear it down and get a bunch of young guys. Others want the Sox to acquire a bunch of veterans through FA. I prefer that the Sox do a little bit of both. 1.) One big expenditure. Preferably a guy who doesn't have a QO attached. For the right price, I think you can make an exception for a guy like Justin Upton who the FO covets. Seems like a lot of people are down on him so if you could get him for 6/120ish that's a nice deal for a guy who's averaged almost 4 WAR/year that past five years. 2.) Steve Pearce. He had a .233 BABIP which is 7th worst for players who had 300 PAs. His ISO is still over .200. You sign him cheapish to be the RH side of the DH platoon with LaRoche. He played at least 100 innings at 1B, OF and 2B for the Orioles last year. Give him a role in a position he should succeed in (hitting LHP) and if he excels there is more opportunity available. If his BABIP normalizes, which I suspect it will, he can be a great pick up. At the very least he's a cheap power option who cold hit 20HRs. 3.) Trade pitching for some YOUTH on the offense. If it's Q that goes, get multiple pieces that can step in and potentially join the core of Abreu/Eaton. 4.) Have an international presence. There is a big opportunity for the July 2 International period this year. Do something the team has never done and blow past the limits. Look to Cuba and Asia. Isn't that what they have been trying to do for the last nine years? Not trying to be snide or sarcastic but this sounds like more of the same that hasn't worked. Commit to a plan and stay there come hell or high water. I'd prefer a tear down but at this point I'll take that or a complete 'go for it' charge regardless of how much it costs. Mark

QUOTE (Lillian @ Oct 13, 2015 -> 02:14 PM) Is that the way the front office will approach it? I thought they try to be more specific than that. But then, I have no idea how they do it. I'm sure every front office has an off season plan that they try to follow but so many things aren't in their control that they have to have options and back up's plans for everything. At least I assume the good ones do. It doesn't haapen often that you print out a list and check off the needs in order 1, 2, 3, or A,B,C. What happens if B falls through, what then? Do you pass up C to do something differently for the B position? What if you can't get A? Do you throw the plan out because another team 'suddenly' says, 'we've got so and so available are you interested?' It's not easy being a G.M. in this sport. See what I mean. Mark

1. 1A. 1B. 1C.....Acquire talent by any means available...buying free agents, signing international players, rule 5 draft, solid trades. Really when you get down to it the Sox still have so many needs that filling any position has got to help overall. So while I understand trying to focus on a particular area or areas, I'll take a talent upgrade anyplace. You can usually move some players around to other spots if needed. Mark

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Oct 13, 2015 -> 09:56 AM) Funny though. Wasn't the rumor we fires Parent for sabotaging Ventura and wanting his job? I mean this move couldn't be more transparent for what it is. Be careful not to run into that problem again, not that I think Sandy would actually do that. I was told that, yes. Mark

QUOTE (ron883 @ Oct 13, 2015 -> 08:17 AM) "Advanced degree in quantum theory" lmao. This is why people aren't taking you seriously. You don't even need to understand advanced stats to see zobrists value. He has put up 5+ war seasons in 5 of the last 7. But yeah, he's a "stiff". The inability to adapt to advanced statistics is just lazy. And I think zobrists gets a big contract this off season. He is valuable to any team. The White Sox in my opinion are not ready to "contend" next season. You do apparently and that's fine. Getting another veteran player in his 30's regardless of how good his "advanced" stats (what the regular stats weren't good enough LOL) may be is going down the same hole and throwing more money down the toilet. Again just my opinion. We'll see how it shakes out this winter and then we'll see what happens on the field next April. They could bring in five Zorbrist's and frankly I don't think it would do a damn bit of good because the issues go higher than just on the field, those are bad enough to be sure, but the real, deeper issues start in the dugout and go up to the front office. Until those are fixed, you're spinning your wheels and "hoping." Hope gets you exactly what it has for the past nine years, one playoff spot and an early exit and six losing seasons. Mark

QUOTE (Lillian @ Oct 13, 2015 -> 08:08 AM) Just a few comments in response to yours: 1) It appears that Danks has slowly, but steadily, been gaining strength in his shoulder. His velocity was back to the low 90's and combined with the change up, which he has refined, his second half success may not be a fluke. He has become a better pitcher, out of necessity, during the time that he lost so much velocity. At this point, I think he is a decent bet to be a very solid 4TH or 5TH starter, who can provide a quality start most of the time. Erik Johnson is likely capable of being the 5TH guy. I think Fulmer may follow Sale and Rodon in coming quickly, even if only in the Pen. The Sox are in the enviable position of not really needing to add any pitching. 2) Find a potent clean up hitter to DH, and the offense should be vastly improved over the pathetic output they got from that spot in the order last season. 3) Don't exercise the $10 Million option on Alexei, and find a slick fielding SS, who can do a credible job in the "2 hole" of the order. They don't need an All Star there, but someone who can hit behind the runner, lay down a bunt and be a plus fielder. I'd prefer a veteran, as Anderson could be ready soon. 4) Give Olt a shot at 3RD. He is a capable defender with huge power potential. 5) Leave Flowers behind the plate, as the pitching staff seems to flourish with him there, and the pitchers like throwing to him. 6) If Thompson can beat out Avi in RF, the outfield defense should be fine with Melky in LF, Eaton in CF and Trayce in RF. Infield defense would be fine with Olt at 3RD, a new good defensive SS and Sanchez at 2ND. 7) In conclusion, I see two holes, not 4. Just get that big bat to DH and a good defender at SS, who can hit in the 2 hole. What's wrong with that plan? Lillian: With respect to you. Flowers is a black hole and no, no, no ,no to Olt. Still with four gigantic holes in the lineup offensively...just my opinion. Mark

QUOTE (nitetrain8601 @ Oct 12, 2015 -> 08:28 PM) I like the names mentioned as ideas: Brandon Phillips Neil Walker Juan Uribe David Freese Daniel Murphy Javier Baez Starlin Castro Jason Heyward Justin Upton Yoenis Cespedes Alex Gordon Dexter Fowler Denard Span Gerardo Parra Austin Jackson Steve Pearce Colby Rasmus. The trade market could include Carlos Gonzalez, Ryan Braun, Marcell Ozuna, and Yasiel Puig. Ozuna would be particularly interesting for Chicago, as he’s yet to reach arbitration and will be earning less than $600K. He’ll be appealing to many teams, however. In the end, the Sox have options, but they're going to have to play them right. Agreed but can they? That's the million dollar question isn't it and to add one more will JR authorize the drastic increase in money to get some of these guys or take on their current contracts? We'll see. mark

QUOTE (oldsox @ Oct 12, 2015 -> 08:50 PM) Lipster, please don't try to convince me that trading Aparicio was wise. Please. I'm simply telling you what Chuck Tanner told me. That's something you'll have to take up with him where ever his spirit is. Mark

QUOTE (Lillian @ Oct 12, 2015 -> 08:44 PM) Lip, do you really think the Sox would have to sign a bunch of free agents, at the cost of raising the payroll by $75 million? Again, if they can keep the pitching, while bringing in a clean up hitter, and a SS who can bat second, I don't know why the Sox couldn't win a lot of the games they lost, giving up 2 or 3 runs. I just don't understand the rationale behind trying to fix every hole in the lineup. How many teams have good hitters 1 through 9? When you are as bad at defense, fielding and base running as the Sox are you have to compensate by outscoring your opponent (for example the 1977 White Sox). Keep in mind the Sox are going to lose Shark a guy who if nothing else gave you innings and had some, repeat some good games. You are assuming Johnson can fill that void...maybe he can...and maybe he can't. Danks had a remarkable second half for a guy with a bad arm. The odds of that happening again? No one can say but I wouldn't bet your life that he can repeat it. And if the Sox decide to trade Q then what? So basically the only real constants you have in the rotation right now are Sale and Rodon, if Q stays that's three. How many teams made the playoffs with three starters? Let me give you another example. In 2009 Kenny decided that the Sox rotation was storong enough with Buehrle, Floyd and Danks at the top so that he could gamble with 40% of it being filled with a beat up Jose Contraras and a pre steroid Bartolo Colon. That didn't work out to well did it? Same situation here if you think the Sox could get by with three starters and 'hope' there's that word again that Danks or Johnson or both can produce. It could happen, and it also could blow up in their faces. So you either go out and have to get pitching (which is a tough get today) or compensate by scoring say six runs a game. I never said the Sox had to have great hitters 1-9, no team has that. On a good team Sanchez would be welcome to hit #9 regardless of what he'd produce offensively because he seems to be a skilled defender. What the Sox do need, and in typical Sox luck, they basically aren't available are good hitters / power bats for DH, catcher, a corner outfield spot and third base. That's four gaping holes which honestly I don't think they could fill even if JR gave the go ahead to raise the payroll by a gigantic amount (which I'm confident he won't do...) The Sox are between a rock and a hard place and I don't know if they can find a way out. That's why I'd like to see them blow it up and start over but to do that you have to bring in skilled talent evaluators or you'd just be spinning your wheels (like they are already doing under Kenny Williams) Mark

So many needs. Can't possibly all be filled no matter what the Sox do. Black holes all over the place. Mark

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Oct 12, 2015 -> 03:50 PM) A couple things: Zobrist being a "stiff" and Zobrist not being the best fit for the 2016 White Sox are very different things. Ben Zobrist is an outstandingly productive and valuable player that any team in MLB would like to have. Is he worth throwing a long term big money deal at? No, but at his age, he is more likely looking at a 2-3 year deal in the $12-$15M AAV range. Not exactly earth shattering in today's game. You've made it clear in the past that you don't like advanced stats (another reason why your historical view on baseball is tired), but take a look at Zobrist's. The numbers don't lie. I agree that patching a bad team with high priced veterans doesn't always pay off. Sometimes it does, but you can't just look at all of this stuff in a vacuum. If the Sox mostly stand pat, I don't think Zobrist makes much sense. But look, the Sox have one of the best pitchers in baseball on their roster, and decent offensive core. They have the makings of a solid team, if smart moves are made to supplement the roster. You have to stop wasting Chris Sale's prime years...if you throw a bunch of kids out there, you need to trade Sale, and the Sox will never get even money for Sale, so they shouldn't and won't trade him. That is pretty much exactly why I think the Sox will continue to try to supplement their roster rather than tearing it up and trading their best assets. You can pretty much apply this same line of though to Quintana, but obviously down a tier. In that case, a guy like Zobrist makes a ton of sense if you can find other places to improve this teams line up and defense, which I am confident Rick Hahn will leave no stone unturned in his search. Reasonable and worth reading. Well done. To me the Sox have basically three general options and only three short of a radical turnover in either ownership or the front office. And unfortunately because it's the White Sox, none are ideal: 1. Raise payroll 75 million and sign every decent free agent out there. Now folks on this site have said time and time again the free agent crop this year simply isn't that good especially at the positions the Sox are in desperate need of. Throw in the probability of a drop in season ticket holders due to the results after the last off season and I seriously doubt JR is going to be willing to go this route. 2. Bite the bullet and trade players like Sale, Jose, Q and so on. Not because you are 'throwing in the towel" but because IT'S THE BEST WAY TO INCREASE THE TALENT ON THE MAJOR LEAGUE ROSTER. I go back to my interview with Chuck Tanner before he died. When he and Roland Hemond took over the Sox were the worst franchise in baseball even worse than the expansion teams...yet in a single year they went from 56 wins to 79. How? According to Tanner it was because while he and Roland knew that trading the main assets the team had Luis Aparicio and Ken Berry weren't going to be popular, there was a plan. As Tanner told me (paraphrasing) 'we knew Mike Andrews wasn't as good of a player as Aparicio but Andrews AND Alvarado gave us two good players for one very good player. Rick Reichardt and Jay Johnstone weren't as good of outfielders as Berry but we got two good players for one very good one.' They received or traded 18 players in a 24 period and when it was said and done, the big league roster was better overall, the depth was better, the talent was better. It came at a cost but that's how you can quickly turn a team around "overnight." No one wants to trade say Sale but if you are going to get three or four good players for him only an imbecile would say, "no." You at least have to consider it. You say the Sox can't keep wasting their good years and I agree but the problem is they aren't close to winning anything with those guys and sooner or later either they are going to hit free agency and leave because they want to win or they are going to tell their agents to get them the hell out of Chicago by hook or crook. Do you want to trade them when you have the upper hand or wait until you've got no choice and basically are forced to give them away for scraps? 3. Do what I think the Sox WILL DO. Make some smaller moves, try to shore up an area or two and hope for the best. I think despite all the talk Rick Hahn understands the lack of talent still on the big league roster and in the higher reaches of the farm. He's going to shoot for 2017. Of the three options I think this probably works best although to me personally I wish the Sox would simply commit to a philosophy and STAY WITH IT come hell or high water. This 'rebuilding while contending' SIMPLY DOES NOT WORK. History shows it the past nine years. Finally regarding advanced stats. I'll simply say this...they obviously have a part in the game but baseball is played by real life humans with billions of variables in play literally throughout the season...from injuries, to slumps to bad weather to bad calls and fluke bounces. THOSE SIMPLY ARE NOT, CAN NOT AND WILL NEVER BE QUATIFIABLE...period. I think those who think they can are delusional. Plus I like to think I'm a fairly intelligent individual. I want to be able to enjoy baseball and not need a f***ing advanced degree in quantum theory or advanced mechanics to be able to...let alone to be able to even try to understand most of the gobbledygook that is being spewed out by some computer geek in his basement on his laptop. (Not directed towards you or anyone in particular but just as a general comment.) Mark

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Oct 12, 2015 -> 01:03 PM) Zobrist is far from a "stiff". From reading you posts the past few months, I often wonder if you have any idea what you're talking about. I think this seals it. 59: One definition of insanity is doing the same failing thing over and over again and expecting it to work. You bring in vets to fill holes when you are ready to contend. The Sox in my opinion are not ready to contend, there are still far to many major black holes in this lineup and on the team. Let me ask one simple question, why would you want the Sox to get into the same position again that Hahn was trying to dig them out of in 2013? Signing expensive guys (even assuming someone like Zobrist would even WANT to play for the Sox - which is a mighty big assumption) to deals when they are in their 30's is another recipe for disaster. What you are suggesting is a "Kenny Williams special" and history shows that has worked out SO WELL for this franchise since the start of the 2007 season hasn't it? They need young talent (which is hard to get granted) not going back to the same philosophy that hasn't worked. I repeat, I'd rather lose with kids who maybe...just maybe have an upside then lose with guys who simply are not going to get better and don't solve the major issues on this club. Like Mark Gonzales told me one time, the absolute worst position a team can be in is to have a bunch of declining guys on the roster with big deals who are unmotivated. I'd rather not have the Sox go back to that place...no thank you. But then again obviously as a Sox historian I have no idea what I'm talking about. LOL! Mark

QUOTE (brett05 @ Oct 12, 2015 -> 11:12 AM) Hawk has always pulled for Carmen DeFalco. He subbed in once or twice a couple years back. I'd also love a return of Dave Wills. Dave is very happy in Tampa and I can't see him leaving. Never say never but the odds are pretty slim. Mark

Impossible to say or think anything right now. No trades have been made, no free agent or rule 5 signings. Some of the guys you mentioned might not be with the club in two months, who can tell right now? Let's wait and see after the winter meetings... than if the reports are true that the Sox think they are close and will basically stand pat, something can be 'predicted.' Mark

A little something from the 1993 A.L.C.S.: http://www.chicagonow.com/soxnet/2015/10/t...ck-sox-scandal/ Mark

For those who may not understand the context please allow me to explain. The time period from 2007 through 2015 has netted the Sox six losing seasons in nine years. From that historical standpoint it is the worst stretch of baseball for the franchise since 1968 through 1980. That time period resulted in two winning seasons, one .500 season and nine losing seasons. I trust this will clear up the confusion. The late 80's and the late 90's have nothing on right now as far as sustained poor baseball results. The late 80's had four losing seasons in a row, that's all. The late 90's had four losing seasons in five years, that's all. Both of those stretches also had the Sox then going on some very good periods...something very hard to imagine at this point in time. Mark

QUOTE (AlSoxfan @ Oct 11, 2015 -> 03:01 PM) Yes, I heard both Robin and Hahn say we just got off to a bad start, just after the AS break. I think they believe they're close. Personally I think even if we had started the year 10-0 we would of never been close. I really don't expect much this off yr. because of this line of thinking. We'll see what happens but given the realistic chance season ticket sales are going to drop perhaps dramatically the Sox probably won't have as much money to throw away on guys in their 30's heading downhill. Honestly I don't see how they can go about getting the talent they need other than trying to sign some guys and hope and maybe swing a deal. They still don't have enough young major league ready talent in the minors to either replace the guys they deal or somehow get younger talent who may be ready to play. I think they are between a rock and a hard place and don't really know yet what the plan is, despite Kenny assuring everyone he has one. The proof is in the pudding, we'll see, but the bottom line is the same folks who got the Sox into this mess are supposedly the ones going to get them out of it. Hate being so negative but that's what you get when the franchise is going through their worst period of baseball record wise since 1968-1980. Win games (a lot of them) and everything is solved from attendance to fan reaction to advertising and such. Right now the record shows the Sox seem incapable of doing this. Mark

Saw an interesting quote today from Tony LaRussa and how much impact a manager has on a game / season. Just wanted to share it for discussion purposes and you can apply it or not to Ventura: "To be really good you have to be a solid decision maker but if your team doesn't play with effort, though, you're a total failure." Mark