Lip Man 1

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:18 PM) First, there is a big difference between trying to win and failing, and putting a product you know isn't good enough on the field. White Sox attendance will rise this year for the first time since 2006. Walk up crowds were terrible in 2012 when they were in first place most of the year. Walk up crowds are pretty much a thing of the past. They really marketed Buehrle vs. Sale and Sale going for a record and sold 4,000 more seats. That was considered huge. I read somewhere where the biggest day of game sale in 2012 was somewhere around 2,000. I think overall the reason for White Sox "walk-up" issues is the fact that this team has never consistently won. By that I mean making the playoffs three years in a row or stringing together something like six years in eight. The Sox were in first place for three months for example in 2012 but in 2011 when they went "all in" they failed miserably and the team was extremely disliked. Ozzie quitting on the team didn't help matters. In 2010 they had a good chance for the post season before falling apart in August. 2009 was yet another losing year. The White Sox are the only one of the original 16 pre expansion (1961) major league franchises to have never made the playoffs in consecutive seasons.And remember expanded playoffs have been around since 1969. It's hard to get a consistent walk up crowd when you can't even string together winning seasons anymore. Having a good season 'out of the blue' as it were, like in 2012, simply doesn't convince fans to come out. (and given what happened the final three weeks that year showed as Paul Konerko said, that they "knew something".) I know this is off the topic thread but I just wanted to pass my opinion along. Mark

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:04 PM) They have made it clear they intend to compete the next 3 years, so no rebuild. I think Oakland has done the rebuild/compete thing with limited success. The problem the White Sox have is shutting it down the 3 or 4 or 5 seasons minimum it would take for a total overhaul will decrease the fanbase. Look at Cleveland. They sold out for years, then got bad for a while, and now even with a few good teams, can't get anywhere near that level. I think the White Sox would be the same way. To get back to 25k a game after a rebuild would take either a lot of luck or several really good years. Dick: This is more of a rhetorical statement / question. Given the attendance issues particularly the past few years would it really matter if they went to a rebuild instead of a reload philosophy and stated that? Does it really matter if instead of averaging 23 thousand they averaged 18 for the time they were rebuilding? (Especially when you factor in possibly the best lease agreement for the stadium in all of MLB as the Tribune explained in great detail a few months ago) Given the massive revenue streams coming in including from web / internet sources, the former commissioner saying MLB is now a nine billion dollar industry (which is NFL territory) I get the strong sense attendance isn't the "make or break" issue anymore. Just my opinion. Mark

One general perception that I'm getting from all this discussion is that is that the Sox organization as a whole have done a poor job of communicating what "the plan" is and how they intend to carry it out. Talk of this three year "window / plan" seems to have come out when Kenny talked with the media in June for example. For so many fans to have different ideas / perceptions / thoughts of what to do, who to blame, who to fire gives me that impression. Say want you will about Epstein but he made it pretty clear to everyone what he was going to do when he took over the Cubs and he stayed with that philosophy despite the backlash from some in the media for example. Sox fans seem to have little to no sense of what the Sox are trying to do, which is why I made the statement in my column that they have lost credibility with their fan base. I don't expect the organization to have gone into minute detail of their plans but a good overall comment could have helped and then more importantly to stayed true to that. If you are going to rebuild...then rebuild. If you are going to reload, then reload. Fine. I don't think you can "rebuild and contend" at the same time which for years has been a philosophy of Kenny and he has stated that but that's simply my opinion. I think a lot of the questions about who is running the show stem from Hahn's public comments and what he did towards purging the major league roster and trying to patiently rebuild the minor league system and then what took place this off season to go along with Kenny's strident comments in June to the media about Hahn and his staff having to clear everything with him. That starts people wondering, even though that may actually be the status quo for a number of major league teams. Looking back Kenny may have wanted to be more tactful in what he said or perhaps not said anything at all. Mark

QUOTE (Greyone @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 11:33 AM) At the end of the day it is time for JR to go... and anybody else in his inner circle that wants to as well. Let his son take over, and forge a new path for this team. JR has publicly said many times that when he's gone he recommended to his family that they sell the team. He's also said publicly that they have no interest in running the show when he's gone for what that's worth. Mark

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 11:29 AM) Mike Matheny didn't have any experience. There's a theory, don't know if there is any truth to it or not that catchers because they have to look at the game from a different standpoint than other positional players make the best managers. Could be part of the reason Mike is doing so well. Plus I don't think anybody would disagree that the Cardinals are a better organization with a far superior minor league operation. Mark

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 10:58 AM) But from the periods you are discussing, they have made changes. Laumann does the draft. Hahn is the GM. Marco Paddy was hired. Ventura is a change. They have done exactly what you are calling for except for one guy, and now, all of a sudden, after a winter of giddiness from Sox fans. Soxfest sellouts, everyone bowing to Hahn, failure happens. Guess what? Now all those moves that couldn't have been more praised by media and the fans, they had nothing to do with Rick Hahn. It clearly was Kenny Williams, the guy that did build the only team that has won in about 100 years, now hasn't a clue, and is forcing Hahn to sign players, and has a gun to JR's head telling him he has to approve the payroll increase. That's fine and dandy, but now let's get back to the facts, which aren't so entertaining. JR was told his team had a lot of holes and was a bit away from contending. JR wanted to win right away and told his guys they needed to do what they could to make that happen. They don't have much they can trade away for anything that helps, but they took that, and got Samardzija. They did the other thing they could do and signed several free agents. This wasn't KW running the ship, this was JR. Maybe KW goes to Toronto or somewhere else this offseason, but he and Hahn did what JR ordered. Baseball, not being like other things in life, sometimes doesn't go as planned no matter how much effort and thought you put into it. Dick: Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough and if so that's on me, but the point I was trying to make with the comparison to 1970 was to go outside the organization. I did mention something along those lines but perhaps not strongly enough. There are simply far to many people in the organization from top to bottom with loyalty ties to JR, to many people having worked for the Bulls organization and crossed over or folks who basically owe their careers to JR. They certainly made changes, how could they not in 10 years, but the mind set seems to be the same since many of the individuals have ties to either the White Sox or JR. I simply wish completely outside people would be brought in from successful winning organizations like the Cardinals, Rays, Tigers, Angels for example. That's what I meant when I wrote about "fresh eyes / fresh ideas..." Again if I didn't make that clear I apologize. Mark

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 11:03 AM) The main point in all of this that's missed is that Ventura has no previous coaching experience on any level outside of his kids' teams. Who gets hired to a top level job by any sane/employed person that has zero experience in lower levels to show that they actually know what they're doing? Well Kenny hired Robin after asking Konerko to become a player / manager. Konerko turned him down saying it would be to much to try to do. JR then approved Kenny's decision since he has the final say on positions like that. So if blame needs to be assigned, I assume it goes mainly to Kenny for floating those ideas and then JR for continuing his philosophy of not hiring a manager with previous managerial experience at the major league level since Jeff Torborg in 1989. Mark

Dick: Kenny in my view is a big part of the problem but pinning the entire situation on one guy is wrong in my opinion. Do I think the organization would be better off if JR allows him to leave to say Toronto this off season? Absolutely and many of the off season moves have a Kenny feel to them given his M.O. for over a decade. But that won't solve all the problems, especially in drafting and minor league player development. Kenny doesn't have a lot of hands-on stuff in those areas from what I know. Mark

QUOTE (Lillian @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 08:20 PM) Why isn't Leury Garcia in the mix to temporarily fill the hole at SS, if Alexei is not brought back? He's a strong defender, with a canon for an arm, and is having a pretty good year at AAA. L. Garcia in my opinion is another one of those "Four A" players (and the Sox have a bunch of them). Impressive stats in the minor leagues but when they get their chance at the major league level they can't do a thing. Garcia had a chance last year and didn't show much. Sox need to do better than him. Mark

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 04:47 PM) So Alexei leads all AL SS in assists. Is that an indication that he plays more than most SS or is it because the fuss about his fielding is slightly overblown ? It's not just the fielding although many of his errors come on really simple plays...to me it's his mental mistakes, his tendency to let his mind drift on the field as well as his inability to work a count usually swinging at the first pitch and generally grounding out to short in key situations with runners in scoring position. Mark

This from Monday's Sun-Times just FYI: "Ventura said the team chose to keep little-used infielder Emilio Bonifacio because he’s used as a pinch hitter and a pinch runner." Mark

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 09:57 AM) I always remember the 2nd time we traded Doug Drabek as he was part of our famous white flag trades. I think the White Flag Trade involved Wilson Alvarez, Roberto Hernandez and Danny Darwin to the Giants for six minor league players. The best of the bunch turned out to be Keith Foulke and Bobby Howry. Doug Drabek was actually released at the end of that 1997 season. He was there for the entire year going 12-11 with an ERA close to six. Mark

I'd be curious to see who are free agent infielders / shortstops for next year. Maybe the Sox can get one on a short term deal. They need to get rid of Ramirez in my opinion. He is the poster boy for "baseball-stupid" that has been plaguing this team for the past few years. Mark

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 19, 2015 -> 08:46 PM) Yes, he was reputed to be, but I certainly haven't seen much of that. I guess it was unreasonable to expect a radical change, but I did expect to see some changes. He deals with same teams Williams did. Hitting coach from Oakland. Invest in utility infielders and past their prime veterans. Extend the insider manager (who doesn't know a thing about sabremetrics) off of a 99 loss season, instead of bringing in his own manager. There has been virtually no change. Maybe we'll see some this trading season....some selling high, for example, but I doubt it. Green: Valid points to be sure but again to continue a discussion we simply don't know how much power Hahn has, if his moves were vetoed by Kenny, if he was 'forced' (for wont of a better word) to make certain moves because of Kenny (as I discussed the off season appeared to be radically different from the plan Hahn was following.) We simply don't know what is really going on. With that in mind it's hard to make a judgment. And also history shows JR is a very "hands-on" owner for better or worse. Just my opinion. Mark

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jul 19, 2015 -> 09:35 PM) Lip welcome aboard! Do you still post over at WSI? Yes I do. Mark

QUOTE (Baron @ Jul 19, 2015 -> 08:23 PM) Hasnt it been already established that Rick Hahn was trained by the guys currently above him in the front office? Why would you expect a radically different philosophy when that first fact is available? It makes zero sense. Not saying this is good or bad but Hahn appears to be more sabermetrics orientated then Kenny. And he seems to be much more patient and willing to trust the "process" or "plan" then Kenny. Just my opinion. Mark

Remember folks to keep checking in over at Sox Net for (almost) daily looks back at This Date In Sox History. Mark

QUOTE (Baron @ Jul 19, 2015 -> 06:24 PM) and if he has actually done any of that has not been proven. So the talk that Kenny is somehow impeding his progress is complete speculation. Absolutely no argument on that point. I'd simply like to see Rick have the same situation that Kenny did when he was G.M. and remove all doubt and end the speculation. Personally I hope Kenny gets permission to move on to another organization this off season. Mark

QUOTE (reiks12 @ Jul 19, 2015 -> 06:45 PM) Drafting Jared Mitchell ahead of Mike Trout There were 21 or 22 other teams that made the same mistake. Certainly not just on the Sox for that one. Mark

QUOTE (Baron @ Jul 19, 2015 -> 06:06 PM) Ah so it's all Kenny's fault. Rick Hahn had nothing to do with the influx in money? He was just an innocent bystander bowing down to the powers of Kenny Williams. I'm sure Kenny would have said no to another year of building. I mean we didnt just go through a 2 year building starting in 2013...oh wait. This power structure is very similar to what most teams have in baseball. Almost make it sound like Hahn has earned Bill Parcells type of credibility. Might as well make him the manager while you at it. Of course Rick has input but again by his own words Kenny has to approve everything which means by the nature of the structure that if Kenny wants a trade or a signing he has the power to tell Hahn to get it done.

Kenny has talked a lot to the press the past few months and he's made it very clear by his own words that before Hahn or his people can do anything they have to run it by him. Let's put it this way, Hahn appeared to be patiently rebuilding the major league team and the minor league system since July 2013. Then "suddenly" the Sox spend a lot of money this off season, much of it spent on veterans in their 30's. That's been Kenny's M.O. for years right? "Win now!", "Go for It," "It's Time!" and his football mentality. Pretty clear to me he's still running the show. I'd also love to see Hahn get his chance without interference...let's put it this way (again)...when Kenny was G.M. did he have to answer / clear things with anybody? Answer: No...Roland Hemond was simply an advisor, not his boss. Hahn deserves the same situation. The White Sox front office is simply to unwieldy in my opinion. Mark

Offense is still brutal. Can't beat divisional opponents (because they don't stack up to them talent-wise) Time to call it a night on another season and start trading whatever you can for the future. Mark

QUOTE (scs787 @ Jul 18, 2015 -> 10:51 PM) Great work and welcome aboard....I must ask, are you of any relation to Thomas? Don't know of any Thomas...sorry. Thanks for the nice words! Appreciate it. Mark

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 18, 2015 -> 06:28 PM) Then why warm him up? Didn't realize he was warming up. Mark

QUOTE (fathom @ Jul 18, 2015 -> 06:00 PM) Sounds like Robertson is healthy, so no clue why he wasn't used. Maybe he was promised the day off...Robin has done that before with him this season. Mark