TheFutureIsNear

QUOTE (scs787 @ Nov 10, 2013 -> 12:55 PM) If you wanna go for another top 3 pick then sure, go for it. Only way I'm giving up Dunn is if they get a LH middle of the line bat in here. Even then I might not do it. Paul Konerko offered close to nothing against RH pitching, which is what the Sox predominantly face. Dunn had an OPS nearly 200 points higher than PK against RHers. And if we keep Dunn until the deadline we finish with the 7th worst record instead? Who cares? Save $ and get younger, this team won't be serious contenders with or without Dunn.

Nobody would be willing to drop Dunn for a couple of B level prospects and bring PK back to DH? Provided he wants to of course.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 9, 2013 -> 11:04 PM) I'm sure some team would take Dunn if the sox paid half his salary but they wouldn't give a valuable prospect back. So if the White Sox have to send $7 million along to trade Dunn and they don't get anything of large value back, why should they move him? If they're paying for him either way they may as well get the 30 HR in their lineup and see if either they remember how to catch the ball and win some games or get a decent offer at the deadline. The only reason why they'd trade him for a pittance and not get anything back is of someone in the minors was demanding at bats at his position...but he's a DH and there's no DH pushing him. I was thinking we could pay more like $5M of his salary and get a couple of decent prospects in return. Again, I know any top prospect is unrealistic, but a couple of 20/21 year olds with potential wouldn't be worth it? Unless you think the offer would be significantly better at the deadline.

Provided we eat some $, do you think there would a team willing to trade for Dunn? Trust me, I'm no fan of Dunn at this point, but is 34 HR's enough to entice an AL team? With no obligation past this year and a team only having to pay $10-12M for 30+ HR's I think it could be a real possibility. Could get a team to bite if they strike out on 1 of the few sluggers available in FA. Not saying we could get a top 100 prospect or anything, but a couple more young talented guys in the farm system would be nice.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 9, 2013 -> 09:17 AM) I think to quite a few fans, rebuilding means dealing Chris Sale for that much speculated about huge prospect package (or Stanton/Harper/Trout, etc). And also trading Ramirez, Beckham/Keppinger (if anyone would take them), Santiago/Quintana, DeAza and Addison Reed. Although you could certainly argue that trading Santiago/Quintana would be to improve the team at catcher or 3B, and that closers are completely replaceable and essentially nice luxuries on 99 loss teams. So probably the two players that would be hardest to replace would be Sale and Ramirez (not really counting Viciedo, Abreu and Garcia, since they're all young hitters and part of a "rebuilding/retooling" effort). I'm all for rebuilding and I think the idea of trading Sale is ridiculous. We already have 1/2, and the hardest part, of rebuilding done with a good young pitching staff. Continue to rebuild the offense/defense this year and in 2015 we could easily be contenders with the right moves. Abreu and Garcia is a good start, but we are still a couple good bats away from having the necessary offense to compete in my opinion. And unfortunately I just don't see any of those type of guys coming from our minor league system anytime soon, so trading some more vets to continue to get younger.

Iwakuma was 3rd in ERA, 2nd in WHIP, 3rd in IP, and 1st in WAR (depending on where you look). Not sure how you could be upset with him being a finalist. Sale has an amazing year and will have plenty of more chances to win it. I'd be pretty surprised if he doesn't win 1 by the time he's 30.

Iwakuma was 3rd in ERA, 2nd in WHIP, 3rd in IP, and 1st in WAR (depending on where you look). Not sure how you could be upset with him being a finalist. Sale has an amazing year and will have plenty of more chances to win it. I'd be pretty surprised if he doesn't win 1 by the time he's 30.

Hopefully we don't go after him. We have enough guys with an OBP below .330.

Not sure if this has been done before, but just getting a feel on the consensus of this board.

I live about 20 mins outside of Philly so I watched Halladay pitch on a regular basis and I really think he might be done. He's sitting around 86 mph and his sinker doesn't have the same bite it had when it he was throwing it 92-93. Might be that he wasn't healthy, but I think its more likely that a 36 year old who is at the end of the road. Besides that it still doesn't make sense. Why bring in an old pitcher who will just eat up innings that could be used for developing a young pitcher? Roy Halladay isn't making us a playoff team.

Very underwhelming free agency class this year. Would anybody take a look at Sizemore? I know theres a good chance he ends up not playing or he just has nothing left, but what do we have to lose?

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Nov 2, 2013 -> 09:19 PM) I didn't sneak anything anywhere. The only number I used was the average OPS for AL second basemen the past 2 years: .682 in 2012, .707 in 2013. Beckham's .694 in an injury-plagued 2013 combined with his defensive value adds up to about league average in my book. He was having a very good season well into August despite playing through those injuries. But my point stands: anyone bothering to complain about Gordon Beckham should only be doing so after they've already spent a bunch of time complaining about our 3rd basemen, our catchers, Adam Dunn, Viciedo's 1.1 total WAR through 1200 career PAs, and Alexei Ramirez making $9.5 million next year despite worse offense than Beckham each of the past 2 years (and the most errors in the AL this year) Injury plagued season also makes it a much smaller sample size. That .694 OPS is heavily skewed by a good 30-40 game stretch, but other than that he was his usual .660-.670 OPS self. Beckham is probably best suited to be a good utility infielder. And yes, I am also complaining about the rest of the guys you listed. Our offense stinks as a whole and needs to be completely retooled.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Nov 2, 2013 -> 02:58 PM) I agree fully on Santiago. Q is a different story. I think Q is pretty good. Whether he can take the next step, who knows? Yeah I think Q has already cemented himself as a legit #3 starter and should be a staple to our rotation for a while.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Nov 2, 2013 -> 01:02 PM) I love when posters adamantly claim to know the specific value of a player. And I love when hometown fans overvalue every player on their favorite team. Its only been a few days since I joined this site, but already I've learned..... - Viciedo and Beckham are good players who are just slumping. They'll be better next year. - Alexei Ramirez is a very good player who should only be traded for a top prospect. He's too valuable for anything less. - Hector Santiago is legit frontline starter and possibly even a #2. - Chris Beck is a top prospect with a bright future.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 2, 2013 -> 12:01 PM) Beck's a sinker-baller. Santiago's trade value ought to be really high. The Sox really f***ed with him the last 2 years and he still put up an ERA in the mid 3's. His fWAR is hurt because he didn't get put in a position where he could throw enough innings - he'd probably have doubled his WAR value if he'd been able to get closer to 200 innings, but they put him in the bullpen for over a year and bounced him back and forth to the rotation over and over so he never got stretched out and tired out. Worse, he never got the time to really refine his offspeed stuff he needed. His ceiling is through the roof...but I fear he may not reach it in Chicago because I feel they won't commit to him. I think he's a #3 starter on a good team or maybe even a #2. You're bias is clouding you're judgement. Santiago is 4/5 starter on a good team. He has good, not great stuff, marginal control, and has never shown the ability to get into the 7th inning on a regular basis. He'll keep you in the game for 6 innings, which is definitely a good thing and he is a valuable member of a team. But he's just not a premium talent, he kinda is what he is. His trade value really isn't as high as you think it is.

QUOTE (SoxFan1 @ Nov 2, 2013 -> 02:28 AM) I think it's funny that "David Freese sucks" but would have had the 2nd best OPS+ on the WSox last season and highest OBP. Ok. Thank you sir. And not to mention last year was his career low in OPS.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Oct 31, 2013 -> 05:29 AM) It doesn't make a lot of sense to sell low on Beckham and I doubt it happens. We wouldn't get value. Anyone who's "confident" Semien would outplay Beckham next year is a silly person. Semien's played 1 month at AAA. He hit well, but not nearly as well as Phegley did there for half a season. We've all seen what a can't-miss predictor of success that is. No one's a bigger Semien fan than me, but it'd be great to see him have more than a month of success at AAA. Despite having wrist surgery, Beckham was hitting .346 with an .828 OPS on July 13 after the 1st game of a double header. He left the second game with a quad injury. He didn't play 6 out of the next 8 games. It clearly negatively affected his play, but he played through it and on Aug 20 he was still hitting .300 with a .765 OPS. League average for the AL was .707 for a second baseman last year. As of Aug 20, did he "need a change of scenery"? He obviously had a crap month from there on to finish the injury plagued season somewhere in the neighborhood of league average for a 2nd baseman. He's more than outperformed his small salary every year. The guy has over 2,000 AB's in the majors. At what point are you going to give up? His career OPS in the those 2000+ AB's is .697. That's clearly a good enough sample size to determine that he isn't a quality starting player in the majors. I'm not even saying Semien is the answer (really hope he is but who knows), but I can say with confidence that Beckham isn't the guy. Time to move on, its time to move on from a lot of guys on this team.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Oct 31, 2013 -> 05:29 AM) It doesn't make a lot of sense to sell low on Beckham and I doubt it happens. We wouldn't get value. Anyone who's "confident" Semien would outplay Beckham next year is a silly person. Semien's played 1 month at AAA. He hit well, but not nearly as well as Phegley did there for half a season. We've all seen what a can't-miss predictor of success that is. No one's a bigger Semien fan than me, but it'd be great to see him have more than a month of success at AAA. Despite having wrist surgery, Beckham was hitting .346 with an .828 OPS on July 13 after the 1st game of a double header. He left the second game with a quad injury. He didn't play 6 out of the next 8 games. It clearly negatively affected his play, but he played through it and on Aug 20 he was still hitting .300 with a .765 OPS. League average for the AL was .707 for a second baseman last year. As of Aug 20, did he "need a change of scenery"? He obviously had a crap month from there on to finish the injury plagued season somewhere in the neighborhood of league average for a 2nd baseman. He's more than outperformed his small salary every year. The guy has over 2,000 AB's in the majors. At what point are you going to give up? His career OPS in the those 2000+ AB's is .697. That's clearly a good enough sample size to determine that he isn't a quality starting player in the majors. I'm not even saying Semien is the answer (really hope he is but who knows), but I can say with confidence that Beckham isn't the guy. Time to move on, its time to move on from a lot of guys on this team.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Nov 1, 2013 -> 06:29 PM) Um, yes. A 22 year old already in AA who was a 2nd round draft pick and has an ERA in the low 3's at each stop is quite a valuable commodity. A 25 year old, left-handed starting pitcher who has 4 years of team control remaining, threw 150 innings this year, throws in the low to mid 90's, put up a 120 ERA+ (3.56 ERA in the Cell) and put up really solid strikeout numbers is extremely valuable and should be treated as such. Sure, Beck had a nice ERA but he managed to strike out a grand total of 4 guys per 9 in A+ ball. Unless he somehow develops a strikeout pitch he's never going to be able to consistently succeed in the majors. He's a pretty marginal prospect that was a throw in for me to be honest. And what exactly do you think of Santiago going forward and what do you think his trade value is?

Wow. I realize this is White Sox board and everything, but there is a pretty ridiculous overvaluing of our players here. Beckham, Santiago, and Beck is a lot to give up? For anything??? The questions of Eithier's contract are legit, but get out of here with Beckham and Santiago getting us any real players in return. And my trades are crazy but people actually think we can get a 21 year old pitcher who is a top 20 prospect in return for Alexei Ramirez?? I'd say that's way more out of touch with reality than my trades.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Oct 31, 2013 -> 07:12 PM) Welcome to Sox talk ! You can't talk about Ethier without talking about his contract and who picks up how much of it . We're not in a position to give away youth for a high contract . The other trade then who plays SS for the Sox ? And beleive it or not but Gillaspie was better than Freese last year and is younger and one of our few LH bats. Freese turns 31 in April. Gillaspe was only better than Freese if you think HR's are the only stat that matters. Because he literally didn't do anything else better. And you're also factoring in Freese's career worst year.

How are Eithier and Freese not good players? Eithier is going to hit .280+/.350+ with 15-20 hr's and play a very solid LF. Not saying he's great or anything, but how is he bad? And how would he not represent a HUGE upgrade to our OF? Ramirez is bad by the way. Very good glove, but he can't get on base and has lost almost all of his power at this point. What use does he have offensively at this point? Less than 10 hr's and a OBP barely above .300 is pretty horrible. Freese presents a huge upgrade to our lineup.

Trade 1: White Sox trade Gordon Beckham, Hector Santiago, and Chris Beck to Dodgers for Andre Eithier. Why it makes sense to me: - Its no secret that LA has 1 too many OF'ers and Eithier seems to be the odd man out. - Beckham can play either 2b or 3b and both are positions of weakness for the Dodgers. Uribe, Schumaker, and Mark Ellis saw a lot of PT for them - Although hes been a bit of disappointment for us, Beckham is a good buy low option for a team like LA. - Santiago is a young, cost controlled SP who should excel in the NL west. Presents a very cheap #4 starter for the next 3-5 years. - Beck is a decent arm that could be a 5h/middle reliever in the near future. - Don't think I need to explain why Either is a good fit for us. Trade 2: Alexei Ramirez for David Freese -No need for me to ramble here. They need a SS and we need a 3B. Freese's down yeaer of .260/.340 is sadly a huge upgrade for us at 3b but he should be much better next year, especially at The Cell. Let me know what you guys think....