BlackSox13

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Oct 14, 2014 -> 08:48 AM) It's just my personal feeling that Lee is done. I could be way off on that, but he just looked and acted like a guy who knew he was done at the end of last year. He had nothing left even after spending like 30 days on the DL in August. Plus, the track record for 36/37 year old starters succeeding isn't exactly great. Like I said, it's my personal gut feeling with nothing to really back it up, but I wouldn't take the chance on wasting the $10M on Lee. I get what your saying. There's no doubt Lee comes with a risk factor and even I wouldn't count on him for the entire season, more hoping than anything. I am still curious about Domonic Brown and what it would cost to grab him. If he could bounce back he would be perfect for the DH spot. QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 14, 2014 -> 09:53 AM) Yeah, Andre Ethier He's coming off a similar season to Danks, he's owed more money, he's locked up longer, and he's older. The Dodgers pick up $12 mill of the final year of the deal, which still saves them money overall and cuts the Sox cost from $18 mill to $8.5 mill ($6 mill plus $2.5 mill buyout). Frankly, to me, that's the deal that makes the most sense if there's any deal that makes sense. It only makes sense if the Dodgers are willing to spend send that 12M to the Sox when the time comes. 18M for each of the next two seasons is expensive for Ethier don't ya think? I like the idea of grabbing Ethier, just not wild about paying him 18M for the next two years.

QUOTE (woods of ypres @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 09:46 PM) I kind of actually like that idea, StRoostifer. But why would Philly do that? Just to clarify, I meant its not the optimal plan. Sorry for missing that. Philly is desperate to shed some payroll so they can have some space to work with. I'm guessing the Sox would have to send a few prospects with Danks although I have no idea how many or what value each would/should have. Danks + prospects for Lee saves the Phillies 10.5M and gives them some room to work with. If I remember right their preference was to trade Lee but teams were calling about Hamel's which is a guy they would rather keep, unless that's changed since July/August. Like I said earlier, I'm just throwing s*** out there since its a dead time for trade rumors with the playoffs still going on. Just trying to think outside the box.

I never gave LaRoche much thought but he could be a good fit for the Sox. I'm not against the idea.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 08:21 PM) I just think Johnson still has to have SOME value. There's no way his stuff that made him a top 100 prospect just vanished in 1 year. He's too young for that, some team would take a gamble on him just like we would on Brown after the year he had. But Beck is expendable imo so if he got the deal done I would do it. Ehh no thanks on Lee. That elbow scares me. Now Papelbon? Yeah I think it would make a whole lot of sense for us to listen. The fans hate him there too so there's even more reason for the front office to move him. They were trying pretty desperately to get rid of him at the deadline to no avail. No idea what a Papelbon and Brown package would be though. Carlos Sanchez, Chris Beck, Trayce Thompson, and Chris Bassit? IDK that doesn't really seem like enough, but this is s*** throwing at its finest. For one season, I would take a chance on Lee in a trade that involved Danks. There are some potential upsides to consider... 1- a healthy Lee is a huge improvement over Danks, granted that's an if. 2- Lee has to pitch 200 innings for his 2016 option to vest. If the Sox contend, he pitches and if not they can shut him down and let him walk after the season. 3- Lee would only add roughly 10M more to the payroll leaving plenty of room to get higher salary players to fill holes. 4- Since its likely Lee would only pitch for the Sox in 2015, Lee not only helps the Sox to contending but helps bridge the gap to one of the young Sox pitchers that will hopefully be ready for 2016. I see Lee as a one year commitment kind of guy and a chance for the Sox to rid Danks contract. I admit, its the optimal plan but given the pitching FA market, its not the worst plan either. As for the Papelbon/ Brown proposal. I think you're offering too much to be honest, maybe try substituting Bassitt's name with E.Johnson?I know Papelbon had a statistically good season but 13M for a 33 year old closer is a lot. Isn't Papelbon another guy Philly tried to unload at the deadline and couldn't? High asking price? Lost value due to high salary? Maybe Philly would kick in a few bucks to help offset the expense...

Guess I made the right choice. I tried WSI back in 06 and made a few posts but didn't like it. Then joined Southsiders and was there for quite a while but there were some homers I just did not get along with and just forgot about the place. When I joined here I also started a new account at WSI but never posted and in fact forgot that I had an account there until this thread reminded me.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 07:31 PM) Well he wouldn't be very easy to get if he was good last year now would he lol? He was the #4 prospect in all of baseball just 3 years ago and hit .270 with 27 HR's last year in his 1st full season in the majors...he's for sure not perfect and I'm not even saying he's a sure thing, but I'd say he's definitely worth a shot. This is why my original offer of Johnson and Thompson works a lot better, they are 2 pieces we can definitely do without imo and make sense for the Phillies who have absolutely 0 young talent. In the scenerio you speak of , it makes more sense. I'm not sure how interested Philly would be in Johnson though. His stock took a huge hit in 2015. Might have to offer up someone like, Beck to go with Thompson? From what I've read, Philly is desperate to shed payroll. I wonder just how much value Lee actually has given a recent injury, his salary, his age, only one year left on his contract and the fact Philly is desperate to open up some payroll. I would take a chance on Lee for year if the Phillies expectations were reasonable. I'm only curious due to the Sox desire to contend and the fact its likely Lee becomes a FA after 2015.

QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 04:06 PM) As NSS has said, the ceiling is based upon the tools, at least until a certain age is reached. The ceiling is not necessarily a realistic outcome at a certain point, and Trayce's multiple repeats of the same level with little if any discernible improvement, have made his potential for reaching it (or anything close to it) rather minute. Still, the skills are there, so the ceiling remains. But sure, the floor is a bit lower than Jordan's because Jordan has had decent success in AAA and a few mlb cups-o-coffee, and there's a good chance Trayce never makes it even that far. I understand what you all are getting at. IMO, to say a player has a high ceiling, yet likely will not make the majors is an oxymoron. I think I'll just leave it at that.

QUOTE (bear_brian @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 06:31 PM) I continue to think that Melky Cabrera makes the most sense for the Sox. I cannot believe Toronto, with an estimated 2015 payroll of almost $ 150M without Melky, is going to make a $15.3M qualifying offer for him. Melky is only 30, is a switch hitter, would absolutely thrive hitting in front of Abreu, would offer more speed and defense than Viciedo, and has already paid the price for using PED's. I see him as an optimum addition for us, and think a $12 to $13M per year contract could land him. He would upgrade our lineup and allow us to consider a short-term deal for a DH, Kendry Morales being my own sleeper choice. I would take Cabrera in a heartbeat! He would solve the LF issue for the next 3-5 years and I agree that he would hit well in front of Abreu. I do think it will take more than 12-13M annually to get him. Even if Toronto elects not to offer the QO its probably likely he will get about 15M annually because there will be plenty of teams bidding on him thus driving up the price a bit. No matter, I would take the chance regardless.

QUOTE (LDF @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 05:59 PM) with all due respect, Dank can't be traded with that scenario. the only way it might be done if we accept a huge contract or 2 in rtn. I don't know man. IMO, its possible but I admit the stars must align first. 1- Danks has to pitch well. 2- a team must be kind of desperate due to unfortunate injury to a starter, which does happen. 3- that team would have to have some room in the payroll to take on 50-80% of Danks contract. 4- the Sox would have to be willing to take whatever as far as prospect(s) go. I do think Memorial Day is possible but mid to late June is much more probable, assuming Danks is or still is pitching well.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 03:19 PM) Yeah people need to realize that no one actually wants Danks, we are most likely stuck with that contract. I wish I could tell you what Ruben Amaro is thinking, but I'm fairly sure he doesn't even know. That team and farm system is such a mess. The only thing I could say that would make the Tank trade make sense is that the Phillies are indeed LH heavy at the top of their order, so its possible that a new face that hits RH would make some sense for them from that standpoint. Agreed. I am not expecting Danks to be traded. I think the best Sox fans can hope for is that Danks pitches well and is traded in June/July next year or that he pitches well for a contending White Sox team and could be traded after next season. As for Brown. I just read an article that projected Brown to make between 1.25-2M in 2015 while Tank is projected to make around 4.4M so given the Phillies payroll situation, that trade might not be all that realistic. Plus, in AL honest I think Tank has more value than Brown seeing as how bad Brown's numbers were last year. Uhgg were they bad. Might be better off not even looking into Brown to be honest. I really like the idea raBBit has of Brandon Belt. Not sure if he will be available or at what price but the idea is a good one to ponder.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 02:53 PM) I hear you on just throwing s**** out...that's what the off season is for. Although to crush your trade just a little more I'll throw in that Rollins has a no trade clause and I don't think Chicago is where he wants to end his career. When I suggested Brown I was thinking a failed prospect for failed prospect type of deal that is always popular in the MLB. Like a Dom Brown for Erik Johnson and Trayce Thompson type of deal. Idk, maybe the Phillies laugh at that deal, but it just seems to me that the organization and coach are over him and ready to move on. Or at lest I can assure you that's the fan bases mindset from listening to sports talk radio here in Philly. I didn't know/think about Rollins NTC so your insight from living in the area is very helpful and I appreciate it. Back to the s*** throwing drawing board I guess. Now your idea of failed prospects swap makes far more sense than trying to dump John Danks and his salary onto a team that's pretty much tapped at this point. Im thinking that since Brown is about to hit arbitration and get raise, his 2015 salary will be closer to Tank's so maybe a Tank for Brown could be a possibility seeing how neither has lived up to expectations so far. I don't know if Philly would have interest in Tank or not? You would have a better idea than I would.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Oct 12, 2014 -> 11:15 AM) You have a clear misunderstanding of ceilings for prospects. Ceiling is everything goes right and clicks for them, not his current production. Not at all, I understand ceilings. I get " if everything goes right". The reality is that not everything is going right. When a young player does well, their projected ceiling goes up based on performance does it not? Then why does Trayce still project such a high ceiling when he continues to struggle two levels below the majors? A player that, for now, has stalled out at AA does not project much ceiling to due the stalled developed... for now. QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 09:41 AM) His ceiling can still be pretty damn high because he's an incredibly talented individual. Trayce Thompson's ceiling and talent level is that of a 3-4 WAR player who makes an All-Star appearance or two, but his floor is that of a guy who will never get out of AAA. I also doubt Thompson will ever get to the majors and turn into a steady performer. Jared Mitchell's ceiling is higher than Jordan Danks' too. Just because a guy has a higher ceiling and is more talented overall means relatively jack squat. Don't take this as my being a smart ass but... How can you give a higher ceiling to player (Trayce) that has struggled at AA than a player (Danks) that has actually made it to the MLB while admitting you doubt Trayce will ever make it to the major league level? In all honesty it makes no sense. I understand Trayce has good tools, but any tool is useless if a person cannot utilize them.

QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 01:02 PM) I was joking Rooster! ?? QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 01:34 PM) F+ Reason for Grade: Missing the joke from Jerksticks My bad dudes. Use the emoticons or green, or something. Throw me a fricken bone here. I do appreciate the + though. That said, I will do my best to improve my grade.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 11:45 AM) please explain why three more times. Use double space and college rule paper, make sure you spell check and please cite all of your sources. Papers will be graded within 3 minutes of turn in Oh s***, that's funny. Good one! QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 12:46 PM) I don't really understand how Rollins is your top target this offseason with all our other holes and weaknesses. But go ahead it's a free country. If you think Rollins is the single missing piece, preach on. If you think Rollins is my top target then you don't read very well and should thinking because you're not very good at it because not once have I said Rollins is my top target, in fact he isn't.

You guys are missing the point in all this. 1- I said from the beginning that I was throwing s*** out there. 2- a deal was proposed by another poster that suggested both Danks brothers be sent to Philli. The Phillies payroll is pretty well maxed last I read so in order for Philli to take on payroll, they would have to trade payroll as well. That's why I threw the names of Rollins and Lee into the mix. The proposed trade of John/Jordan Danks for Domonic Brown just isn't going to happen. I could see Danks and Tank as a possibility IF the Sox were willing to take on a higher salary player or two from Philli. Let me stress again, just throwing s*** out there. There are better players out there to go after than Brown, I'm just entertaining the possibility is all.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 13, 2014 -> 01:11 AM) I mean, that you're banking on Rolins being traded at midseason next year...or you're "all in" and keeping him for the remainder of 2015 (with accompanying moves to improve starting rotation, DH, bullpen)? Basically, you believe if the team underperforms again that Rollins with 2-3 months on his contract would be a lot easier to trade than Danks with 1 year and 2-3 months, yes? And in this scenario, you're moving Alexei Ramirez to 2B? Once again, to compete in 2015, or to "hold the position/s" for Micah Johnson/Semien/Sanchez one more year? Good grief Caulfield. I've explained this in previous posts and am not about to rewrite again. Read the last few pages and you will know why it was brought up in the first place. Its not that difficult, really.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 12, 2014 -> 10:02 PM) Why would we want Rollins exactly? Because you think he'd be easier to trade than Danks? Because all indications are they want to give that position to Micah Johnson at some point next season. Rollins is a defensive upgrade. Easier to trade than Danks? Not sure what you mean by that... If by indicators you Scott Merkin declaring Johnson the 2B of 2015, I'd take that with a huge grain of salt until ST is over. As I've already explained, Rollins instantly improves the defense and gives the lineup a number two hitter while allowing Johnson to improve his defense at Charlotte for one more season. Rollins is a FA at the end of 2015 so hopefully Johnson, Sanchez or even Anderson ( if he doesn't stick at SS) will be ready for the 2016 season.

QUOTE (LDF @ Oct 12, 2014 -> 05:12 PM) Peavy, it might be an interesting piece. the only problem, at least for me is the cost. re: Philly, the cost to get Lee would be too high in prospects to make that trade. during the trading deadline, Philly was asking for a huge rtn. I don't think they are in that much of a dire need to trade. The combo of Lee's age (36), 2014 injury ( only 81IP in 2014), salary ( 25M) and the Phillies being desperate to open up room in their payroll hurt Lee's value a lot. Essentially , Lee would be more along the lines of a salary dump but that doesn't mean he's worth nothing, just not as much as one might think. Its been speculated that the Phillies would prefer to trade the likes of Lee, Howard, Papelbon to give their payroll some space. None of which hold the value they once did due to injury/ performance/ salary reasons. Depending on the players involved coming from Philly, I don't think it would too costly prospect wise from the Sox.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Oct 12, 2014 -> 12:51 PM) If we did that (and it's interesting), we'd need to trade Alexei. We've got to give some of these young IFs some room. I do like the idea of a Vic-Dom Brown change of scenery. I actually think Brown could be pretty good. I'm still intrigued with that FAn-Graphs list. Noesi and Danks were ranked in the top 80 starters. That's close to top 1/2, right? (30 teams x 5 starters per team). So they are average. It sure didn't feel that way. Peavy did pretty well with the Giants, but it sure looked like he was all shot when with the Red Sox. I still like my Danks bros plan better; although not as much as the Danks+Flowers for Puig idea above. Problem with trading Alexei is none of Sanchez, Johnson, or Semien are natural short stops so the defense will surely take a hit. Its likely Sanchez and Johnson could use a bit more time in Charlotte anyway and the Sox could always trade Gillaspie to put Semien at 3B. Brown would be the DH and now the Sox just need to find a LH left fielder and the offense would be set, on paper anyway. Could shift Alexei to 2B and play Rollins at SS since his defense is better anyway. The defense up the middle ( Rollins, Ramirez, Eaton) would be very good and what's needed for a contender. Keep in mind that the Phillies payroll is about tapped so if the Sox are to unload Danks on Philly, the Sox will have to take some payroll off of the Phillies. Another idea would be if the Philly traded Cliff Lee, Domonic Brown and some cash to the Sox for John Danks and Tank. Unless Lee pitches 200 innings in 2015 his vesting option for 2016 will not kick in therefore making a free agent after the 2015 season so the Sox would only be on the hook for one year with Lee. Should Lee pitch 200 innings, something can be put in the trade agreement that Philly would have to kick in a few bucks towards Lee's 2016 salary. Either way, if the Sox were to make a trade with Philly, the Sox would have to take some salary off of the Philly payroll. I will say that a healthy Cliff Lee would help the Sox rotation and bridge the gap to Montas/ Danish. A healthy rotation of Sale, Lee, Q, Noesi, Rodon sounds pretty damn good to me. Philly is desperate and the Sox have room so it could be a fit. Maybe even Lee, Brown and Rollins for John Danks, Tank and one of Semien/ Johnson/ Sanchez. I don't know if that's close, just throwing it out there.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Oct 12, 2014 -> 11:07 AM) we shouldn't be dealing prospects of any worth, esp for expensive risks. Bruce is another high K player - I'd like to see a Sox moratorium on those players. See if we can get Dom Brown for the Danks bros. No chance Philli can take on more salary without relieving some salary. Dominic Brown is goes to get a raise this year as he enters his first year of arbitration so its quite possible Philly would not mind moving him. I can see a possibility of something like John Danks and Tank for Domonic Brown and Jimmy Rollins. The Sox would move Rollins to second and bat him second which buys some development time for the Sox future 2B. Rollins should bring good defense to second as well as a LH bat, good contact and base stealing potential to the two hole in the batting order. Heck, I'd be willing to send money with Danks and Tank to be sure a deal could be done, provided Philly was interested of course. Fwiw, Rollins is owed 11M for 2015 and is FA after the 2015 season is over. Also want to add. I would be fine with the Sox kicking the tires on Peavy. Sale, Q, Peavy, Rodon, Noesi looks better than the 2014 rotation. s***, I really like how that looks!

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Oct 12, 2014 -> 10:13 AM) This may not be a popular opinion, but I think Jay Bruce solves a lot of problems for us. I would take a chance on Bruce despite a down 2014 and would MUCH prefer him over CarGo. I'm curious what a guy like Bruce would cost in Sox prospects.

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 10, 2014 -> 02:26 PM) There's no way Thompson's ceiling is lower than Danks' floor. Basically you are saying that if everything goes right and he develops into all of his talent, he'd be no better than Danks at his worst. That's crazy. Even with his struggles, Thompson is still a 4 tool player. If he doesn't hit for a high average, he could still further develop his power and turn into a Chris Young or Drew Stubbs type of player. That has value and it's a hell of a lot more than Danks' floor. For the record, here was the average line at AA: .254/.328/.382/.711. And here is Thompson: .237/.324/.419/.743. Danks has already proven he can be a player of some value, so that's good, but Thompson has a ceiling that is still very high, and I'm not even a big fan of Trayce Thompson. Just better hope danman doesn't see this. How high of a ceiling can be projected for a player that's struggling to hit his way out of AA? That's why I say, AT THIS POINT, when I refer to his ceiling is lower than Danks floor. Danks has made it to the big league club, something ( at this point) I doubt Trayce will be able to do. I hope I'm wrong.

QUOTE (LDF @ Oct 10, 2014 -> 08:18 PM) I am not a stat guy so I might be really out of my element here. let me start by saying that I am not a fan of DV since the 2 or 3 yr playing. fast forward, today, I keep hearing how bad he is. well you are all correct, however lets look at the 1 thing that is positive about him ..... it is his power and 21 hrs this season. a lot of players can not crack 15 let alone 20. he is what 25 yrs old. is he going to get better, I don't think so. but lets look at a different way. is he the only one who has 500 at bats, hit 15+ hrs and batting 230. NO, there are many. http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/stats/players...ategory-batting I get what you're saying and I agree. I think his age, current power and his future power potential is why he still has decent value. He might be an odd case where another team may value him more than the Sox do. I think DV is expendable because the Sox need better defense in the OF, a left handed power hitter behind Abreu in the lineup and a left handed DH. None of which DV can fulfill. I'm not against keeping Tank but he would have to be the DH and that would kill the idea of having four starting outfielders and using the DH to keep some legs fresh. This would force the Sox to search for left handed power from at least one of if not both the LF and 3B positions. I was thinking a little while ago about all the trade speculation between the Sox and Dodgers. Anyone think the Sox could have interest in Adrien Gonzalez? Just throwing it out there but the Dodgers ( if willing to trade him) could move Kemp to 1B and open a hole for Pederson. Not that I want to trade Alexei but he could be used in a trade for Gonzalez, unless they move Gordon to SS. Just trying to think outside the box is all.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 10, 2014 -> 06:19 PM) I am perfectly content with Kenny Williams in his current role and would be disappointed if he were to leave as a fan of the White Sox. As a "top level scout" he is incredibly useful and Jose Dariel Abreu re-proves that. I think we all Sox fans (including us) need to keep in mind that while KW had a hand in some good moves, he also made moves that were bad. Im not going to turn this into a debate where we list KW's good and bad moves but I will say that I respect KW for 2005 and in recent times trying to put together a winner, but KW is also a reason for the rebuild we are enduring now. It must not have been easy for Hahn to step into the roll of GM.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 10, 2014 -> 04:54 PM) Yeah, what has that bum done for us lately. We never even heard anything about that 1b he scouted last offseason, that must have wound up as a disaster. All I said was please let this be true, nothing dirogitory about KW and this is the response I get? Somebody call the whaaaaaaambulance, someone hurt Balta's feewings. Whaaaaa!