steveno89

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 12:57 PM) Inarguably, the best starter of our lifetime (Pedro) and one of the hardest throwers (Wagner) were both tiny guys. I understand they're outliers, however, it just shows how unpredictable these things can be. Pedro is a hall of famer and outlier If you look at the top 25 mlb starting pitcher WAR the vast majority are 6'2" to 6'5" and weigh 195 to 220 lbs

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:51 PM) This is where my disconnect is. "Massive flaws" = nowhere near being included on a top 10 prospect list in all of baseball, at least to my way of thinking. I, of course, acknowledge that these various lists out there are not the end all/be all, that as some other posters have pointed out, each team operates under their own understanding of a player's capabilities based on what their scouts are telling them. I would just think someone with such a "big red flag" as you point out which hasn't been corrected by "one of the top pitching organizations in baseball" would not be on ANY of these lists if whatever issue(s) he has is/are as bad as you suggest. Massive flaw might be exaggerated, but a 5.2 BB/9 in AAA this season is concerning moving forward You simply cannot walk that many batters and expect to have consistent success at the mlb level where the hitters are even more patient. I'm not saying he does not deserve to be a top 25 prospect, he does based on stuff and talent.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:45 PM) I get that, and I don't disagree, but the Sox badly need hitting prospects. I am all for acquiring and hording as many top prospects as we can. That said, it is obvious that there is a premium on hitting prospects, so I don't think it is as simple as "oh well, we'll just turn Glasnow into a top 5 positional player down the line". Position player prospects are considered to be much less risky and less likely to have injury problems than pitchers Sox might consider the current market to be tapped out and would rather wait until the trade deadline to see what is available

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 01:34 PM) I keep seeing this observation made over and over again, but how is it that one of the top 3 pitching prospects in all of baseball as recognized by every legitimate source out there is somehow "not good enough" to headline this potential trade for Quintana? The guy IS a TOP 10 prospect in the game, and is actually rated ahead of the likes of the Torres' and Fraziers' of the world on almost every top prospect list out there. Yes, there is a scouting report here or there making certain comments about his stuff, but if it were that bad, he wouldn't continue to be at the top of all of these lists. I think perhaps our fan base's desire for prospects of the positional player variety may be muddling the true value of this guy as an elite prospect in the game today. Dave Cameron of fangraphs specifically said that Glasnow is not good enough to headline a Quintana deal on his own He guessed the White Sox will require 2 out of Meadows / Bell / Glasnow plus other stuff to get a deal done I am not saying Glasnow is a "bad" prospect, but he is pretty risky considering he has yet to show the ability to consistently throw strikes.

QUOTE (reiks12 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 12:56 PM) I actually really like the idea of Glasnow/Keller/Newman/ and Diaz I dont find it light at all It is light for several reasons #1 Surplus Value Quintana's cheap contract makes him worth roughly $133 million in surplus value over the next four seasons Glasnow + Newman + Keller + Diaz #2 Organizational need We have acquired Giolito, Kopech, Lopez, Dunning and Diaz in the Sale and Eaton trades. While you can truly never have too much pitching, these acquisitions lessen our need for right handed pitching in a Quintana deal We are seriously lacking in quality position player prospects, and my guess is that Hahn and Co. would like a premium position player prospect as part of the Quintana return. I do not consider Newman to be a "premium" prospect worthy of headlining a Quintana deal due to a lack of power potential. Meadows is pretty clearly the sticking point here. I do not see the Sox agreeing without him in the deal. Newman's value is tied with his ability to stick at SS. His bat is far less attractive at 2B/3B or a corner outfield spot due to the lack of pop. Great hitting approach, but he's far less valuable if he's not playing SS. Diaz projects to be a defense first, backup catcher at the mlb level. He has had multiple 60 day DL stints. Limited upside offensively.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 12:29 PM) I wouldn't take Tate or Jay over Fulmer even now. Tate and Jay were perhaps overdrafted, but any of those position player prospects the Sox would have taken for sure

QUOTE (PolishPrince34 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 12:18 PM) I actually tend to agree with Law's evaluations of starting pitchers/frames. 5'11"-6'1"" who have dominated in the last 40 years have been very few ( Pedro, Cueto, Oswalt, Tim Hudson, Guidry, Lincecum, Valenzuela, Gio Gonzalez). Yes some of these players have really panned out and were elite pitchers and Cy Young winners, but more often than not pitchers with smaller frames end up in bullpen (Wagner, Kimbrel, Robertson, Rodnery, Flash Gordon, etc) lose their plus stuff quicker, or arm/body breaks down. One of the concerns and worries I have with Carson Fulmer and Reynoldo Lopez are their size and being to withstand 162 games in the starting rotation. It's not the #1 concern with Fulmer and Lopez (Mechanics #1), but it's very high up their. Sox were stuck in a tough spot picking #8 in 2015 Every player picked above them I think they would have drafted over Fulmer: 1) Swanson 2) Bregman 3) Rodgers 4) Tate 5) Tucker 6) Jay 7) Benintendi They did what they felt was the best selection at the time was in Fulmer. At 6' 200 lbs he has less than ideal size for a starting pitcher and likely is best suited to a bullpen role, but he should be given the opportunity to start in AAA this season

QUOTE (oneofthemikes @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 12:16 PM) Meadows, Newman, Keller , Hayes, Diaz. Pirates are not trading 5 of their top 10 prospects for Quintana

QUOTE (beautox @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 12:10 PM) If rumbunter's right and Hahn had/has the deal on the table, good for him for holding out. Meadows / Bell / Keller and Q is in the black and gold. I don't think the Pirates are willing to trade Bell as they view his bat as being essential to the middle of their order moving forward

QUOTE (bighurt574 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 11:08 AM) For a top prospect like Glasnow, scouts sure seem pretty split on him. If the Sox' scouts and coaches aren't sold, then he's not much of a headliner. Plain and simple. We're not just going by prospect rankings here. It's entirely possible the Sox just don't like him all that much. If the Sox value him as a top 10 prospect, I suspect a deal would probably be done by now. Glasnow on his own is not a good enough prospect to headline a Quintana deal 5.2 BB/9 in the minors this season does not make anyone warm and fuzzy about his control developing. I am not saying he can't or will not improve, but right now he seems like the kind of pitcher that will rack up a bunch of k's, but also a bunch of 5+ walk games leading to maddening inconsistency Glasnow + Keller + Newman + one more is not the right package for the White Sox. We need at least one premium bat and one premium arm coming back to us in order to deal Quintana Something along the liens of: Meadows + Glasnow + Diaz + Comp Balance Pick for Quintana

QUOTE (WBWSF @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 06:58 AM) Hopefully he won't be on the team in 2017. He can't hit, field or throw anybody out. He's a bum. Having him as the starting catcher should tell everybody what type of a team the White Sox will have in 2017. I'm real curious to see what the advertising campaign is going to be this year. Maybe it will be "Wait til next year". Narvaez to me seems like he could develop into a solid backup catcher He offers no power, but does draw walks and limit strikeouts With even average defense you can't ask much more from a backup Now should he be starting? No

QUOTE (peavy44 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 09:33 AM) well astros are out and looks like pirates too. Astros are "out" until they pick up the phone and call Hahn whenevr they choose Boston was thought to be out on Sale, until they weren't

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 09:25 AM) I could argue that Meadows and Glasnow is a better haul than the Sale deal. No chance that happens for Q IMO. Meadows has had injury problems, whereas Moncada has been healthy as far as I know. That does play a factor in prospect value. Glasnow's upside is considerable, but some scouts appear to be down on him because the control has not really developed and he still walks too many batters. Meadows + Glasnow is similar in return to Moncada + Kopech. It's arguable which is a "better" return, but Kopech is three years younger than Glasnow and still has quite a bit of projection left. Moncada > Meadows, not by a massive margin, but the injury history certainly gives Moncada the edge Glasnow > Kopech right now, but not by a huge margin

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 09:46 AM) Law's evaluations of bats have been as good as any publication writer over the internet age. He's outstanding. If I like a guy (on the position side) and then I hear Law likes him, I'll dive in and usually come out looking good. Law's evaluations of pitchers is almost like punching in numbers into a system. Under 6'1"? Under 185? Automatic reliever. 6'3"+ but very thin frame? Automatic reliever. Throws hard with bad mechanics? Automatic reliever. Law wants every pitcher to be 6'4" 215 lbs with perfect mechanics. I just don't think mechanics are as predictable as Law's writeups would give credence to. It's not even like he would argue that but he just bets on the workhorse bodies and does his presumptuous, writing-off of any guy who doesn't apply. Frankly, it's not the worst strategy given the tough task that Law has to do but at the same time, he knows some of these unconventional deliver/smaller body guys are going to work out and they're going to keep making him like bad (See Sale, See Carlos Martinez, Hopefully see Reynaldo Lopez). Physical analysis is not a horrible way to scout players, but it does need to be considered amongst other factors. Fulmer and Lopez both have the physical build more prone to becoming relievers. Giolito, Kopech, Dunning, Hansen and Burdi have excellent pitchers frames though

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 09:35 AM) http://m.mlb.com/news/article/213958338/20...picid=151437456 It's hindsight for sure but I wish the Sox took Ian Happ instead of Fulmer. Happ has not proven anything to this point either. His defense is questionable. Sox should not have rushed Fulmer to the majors in 2016, and a season in AAA will hopefully help him get back on track It's too soon to call Fulmer a bust

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 09:39 AM) Listening to Collins and the White Sox org speak I really get the feeling his chances behind the plate are being underrated by a lot of national guys. I dont expect Law to spend 3 hours of his life listening to podcasts about Zack Collins, BUT I HAVE! and I think if he did too he'd change his tune a little on the defensive side of his evaluation. So you take that kind of bullish offensive report and combine with his a positive defensive trajectory....to me I'm encouraged. I dont care about #95 whatever, I feel better about Collins after reading Law's take on him despite the ranking. I am very confident in Collins bat, approach and power potential. Even passable defense will make him an elite prospect in my opinion.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 09:17 AM) Law doesn't think favorably of any White Sox prospect. Our position player prospects leave a ton to be desired Outside of Moncada, Collins, and Basabe none of our position player prospects currently project to be mlb regulars Fisher and Call were solid draft picks, but they have a bunch of questions to answer Beyond that the farm is pretty depressing position player wise

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 09:00 AM) I would do that deal as well. And I definitely didn't see it in his series of tweets. My bad. I see that offer as a depth package, but one with fairly limited upside Newman's value is tied to him sticking at SS, which is no guaranty with Tim Anderson at the position right now. Sox likely want to keep Moncada at 2B, and I do not like how Newman's bat profiles at 2B or 3B with the lack of power. 50 FV at SS/45 FV if he has to move positions. Hayes is a long ways off the majors, but I don't hate him as a final piece 50 FV, I'd go 45 FV at this point due to how far from the bigs he is. Glasnow is a great second piece in a Quintana deal, but his control issues make him far too risky to headline on his own. 55 FV Keller had a great 2016 season, but forearm issues have me concerned. He has mid rotation potential, but is a ways off the mlb. 55 FV Meadows is the gem of the Pirates system right now and would need to be packaged with Glasnow to headline a Quintana deal

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 08:52 AM) As I pointed above, Rumbunter never hinted or suggested that the above package is the offer Hahn recently rejected. Rumors seem to indicate the Pirates are offering up a Glasnow + Newman headlined deal, perhaps with Keller on the table as well. While those are all good prospects, I would not trade Quintana for a package like that. Newman has far below average power (.100 ISO), which limits his upside to a contact/obp middle infielder.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 08:49 AM) Would be interested to know where Law had Schwarber ranked the year after he was drafted. I think most experts agree Collins has a better chance of sticking at catcher than Scwarber. #95 feels a bit low to me. Collins is a guy I can see being a top 50 prospect by mid season if he plays up to his ability. I fully expect that bat to perform really well and he should get moved up to AA at some point before the end of the season. It's too soon to write him off at catcher

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 08:14 AM) I actually don't see where he says this. Another poster just said that Hahn isn't crazy for rejecting that package but don't see Rumbunter saying that is the deal. I would turn down that proposal as well Pirates are not getting Quintana if both Meadows and Bell are off the table

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jan 23, 2017 -> 07:13 AM) This sounds like a Donald Trump speech. You aren't going to say it out right. You are just going to make a bunch of innuendo and hints about it, and pretend that isn't what you are saying so you can be right with both sides, and then just make up anything else to fit the narrative. You can't just take an offer to another team for another player and assume that is what we are being offered, especially when a report is out there that contradicts that. As has been stated before, Hahn did not "give up" on Devers really. He was already getting the consensus #1 overall prospect in baseball and a top 5 right handed pitching prospect as well. DD knew that no other team could beat those headliners and that the White Sox would be foolish to pass up a Moncada + Kopech centered deal. Q has not been traded because teams have been unwilling to put the correct headlining pieces into a trade offer. Meadows and/or Bell absolutely have to be in a Pirates proposal or a deal will not work. Martes + Tucker have to be in a proposal, along with alot more. Torres needs to be in a Yankees offer, etc. We have the leverage in negotiations with Quintana being under control for 4 more seasons. That is huge. If the right deal is not presenting itself right now then we absolutely should reevaluate at the deadline. There very well could be new suitors that emerge, as well as prospect who take big steps forward. Ideally, our price gets met soon, but it's looking like Quintana will break camp with the Sox. Just be patient and let this process play out.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 22, 2017 -> 03:45 PM) I can reasonably assume that the Sox have been offered a similar deal that the Rays were sent for Archer and that the Sox are leaving it on the table because they want Musgrove or Bregman. Not taking much of a leap on that, and I think that's a good deal that makes the Sox better long term. Also if they had been shopping Sale for a year I would hope they have also had talks on Quintana. This FO can do more than one thing at a time. Your reaching to assume a certain trade offer was made. We just don't know. Tucker, martes and paulino is not getting it done. We are better keeping Quintana than dealing him for a subpar offer like that

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 22, 2017 -> 03:35 PM) I'm not asking anyone to sell me on the Boston players. What I am asking is if Hahn was so eager to trade Sale even if his price wasn't met why won't he do the same for Quintana? And why is everyone so willing to excuse this double standard? I mean I see a lot of people who say "well if they won't meet Hahn's price they should jus t keep him", but Boston didn't meet Hahn's price on Sale and everyone rushes to tell me how great that trade was. I want the Sox to do well, but I'm getting to the point where I have serious issues with how this rebuild is taking shape. There is no reason Melky, Fraz, Abreu, Jones, Robertson, Migo etc. should ALL be on the team to open the season. The "well the market for these guys hasn't developed" excuse doesn't work. A serious market has developed for Quintana but they're not trading him, multiple teams have been connected to Robertson but talks around him are dead (they should feel lucky to give him away to avoid paying him), Frazier and Melky both walk away for nothing in a year...I don't know. It's not even February yet so I'm not going to start assuming things, but I am going to ask questions about the motivations of the front office to move the players they did. We have no idea what offers have been made on any of the players you mentioned. If a deal could be made then Hahn would pull the trigger, obviously that has not happened. You're advocating settling for less on Quintana, which we have no reason to do. It took at least a year of sale trade talks for the deal to finally happen, be patient. Trust the organization with the rebuild until they fail

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jan 22, 2017 -> 11:12 AM) Sorry Sox system is better than 10, top 5 easy. SOS from Law when it comes to the Sox. Our system is very top heavy right now, and really tails off after the top ten. This is not the end of the world, but we need to improve our prospect depth, especially with position players and left handed pitchers