steveno89

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 01:08 PM) If Kahnle is such a huge injury risk, aren't all the White Sox pitchers, including their prospects? Sox had two choices: Option 1 = cash in on Kahnle now while he is hot and healthy Option 2 = cash in on Kahnle next season for a potentially higher return, but also risk injury and/or poor performance. Value can go up, but also could go down. Option 3 = we keep Kahnle (doesn't make much sense to not deal him) There is no shame in striking while the iron is hot on a relief asset. We should deal Swarzak soon as well.

QUOTE (shipps @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 12:48 PM) I am not in the belief that Rick is going to just give anyone away in this rebuild. Now I know some might not agree with that LOL I wouldnt put it past Rick to get a top 100 at the very bottom type guy for Swarzak. Someone is going to get desperate after they strike out landing the other guys. That would be incredible, but unlikely. I would be very happy with a B, even B- prospect in exchange for a Swarzak rental.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 12:02 PM) I think that's the realistic timeline for most people. I also don't think it's completely out of the equation they arrive a year early since the rotation has a chance to be loaded and some of the top hitters in A ball might get here quicker than expected. Am I betting on that? Of course not. Do I think it's impossible? Absolutely not. I'm with you. 2018 is not going to be pretty as we go through growing pains, but 2019 should see significant progress. There is a chance of things clicking and we surprise, but I'll stick to a more conservative estimate of 2020-2021 being when we start to make some noise

QUOTE (GenericUserName @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 11:48 AM) I don't understand how this is a factor in making this trade happen. It absolutely is a reason for why we were going to trade them, but it doesn't matter in terms of making this trade versus making a different trade. MLB is a business in which the owner's goal is to make money, don't lose sight of that. When Hahn can save his boss about $20 million after shelling out $50+ for Robert it really helps lessen the sting. Hahn stated twice in the press conference about how the Yankees paying the entire salaries of Frazier/Kahnle/Robertson did play a factor. Was it the only factor? No, but a factor nonetheless. As fans we sometimes lose sight that ownership can only stomach spending so much money before it stops making sense. $20 million is considerable savings in this case.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:59 AM) Updated Fangraphs ROS projections: Before the trade we were projected to finish at 65 wins, 5 games ahead of the Phillies. It's now down to 63, 3 games ahead of the Phillies. #1 overall pick could still happen. http://www.fangraphs.com/coolstandings.aspx When/if we deal Swarzak/Avi/Melky/anyone else I see this team being very real contenders for the #1 overall selection. Our bullpen will be in complete shambles. #thetankison

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 11:50 AM) Hahn made it seem last night that this season and next are the rebuilding years, and some trades and/or free agency should fill in the holes after next season. That the money they don't spend this season and next would be used for 2019 and beyond. So his target to contend is 2019. I think it's a bit aggressive, but if these guys are as advertised with minimal busts, it's possible. 2017 = suck 2018 = suck 2019 = ideally a return to respectability, should see progress. Team works its way back to around .500 baseball 2020 = should contend for the division

QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 11:49 AM) We felt it was long overdue that we brought some new blood into our group, and these two have shown their commitment and desire to make this site a better place. Please help them feel welcome (by hurling insults at them and breaking them in)! Congrats guys!

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:54 AM) I basically ignore the pitching lines for those teams. Is there anyone I should follow? Tyler Johnson, Kade McClure, JB Olson, Will Kincanon are worth following

QUOTE (2005thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 11:11 AM) I don't think Kahnle for Rutherford is too far off. But did anyone actually expect only two C level prospects for Frazier and Robertson before deal went down? I think that's even worse than A's got for two lesser players, which was considered a slim return. Money saving is nice on paper but we're in good spot financially, would have prefer to eat some money with another team to get a B level prospect in return. Zero chance Kahnle straight up for Rutherford would ever happen if not for the rest of the deal. As great as he has been this year, there is no track record of this level of success. I do believe he has turned a corner and could be a very good reliever, but he does not have the history that Chapman/Miller did at all. Any higher up the prospect list starts to get into what most clubs consider to be an "untouchable" prospect, or one who is only moved in exchange for a cost controlled starting pitcher for example. Rutherford was very much on the table is Quintana trade discussions. Trust in the moves Hahn and Co. are making.

QUOTE (soxfan49 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 11:15 AM) 12/360 for MM Sox will look into signing a guy like Harper/Machado, but I don't know if it would be in the club's best interest at this point. The bidding could easily get to an insane level, both in terms of years and salary.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 11:11 AM) It should be noted the salary dump was a massive reason this trade was made to the point where Hahn mentioned it twice during his announcement presser. That's the very likely reason why the player return ended up so disappointing, moreso than any Sox players perceived value. Saving $20 million was absolutely a big factor in this trade. Sox shelled out $50+ for Robert, so saving $20 makes that more palatable to ownership I am sure. This is a business after all.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:48 AM) What does that have to do with it? Q was a 6 year minor league free agent. Mark Buehrle was a 38th round draft pick. Kahnle averages 15 k per 9 innings in the major leagues this year. Rutherford has been ho hum in A ball. Yet Kahnle is sure to have a bad month and be worthless, while if Rutherford has a good month or 2, he's untouchable. I just hope some posters here are prepared when some of these guys (and not necessarily Rutherford) bust. It will happen, yet being ranked #1 on the farm seems to mean as much to some as winning the WS. Who cares what you are ranked. What matters is what these guys become. The Sox staff is on the clock. Kahnle has been great, no doubt. He very well could continue to be great, no doubt. The point of this was that Hahn felt his best chance at landing a top prospect was to package our assets together. The organization is high on Rutherford and Clarkin obviously.

QUOTE (2005thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:24 AM) I think that is the fallacy of prospects in baseball. Your take on Kahnle who is having a breakout year backed by improvement in stuff - he's a few bad months away from being worthless. Then for Rutherford who is off to a relatively slow start in Low A - he's a few good months away from being untouchable. Right, because historical trends tells us players in midst of breakout aren't continue to sustain performance, while prospects are very much likely going to pan out? The saying goes, rebuilding clubs should always be trading relievers. The trade really breaks down like this: Robertson + Frazier for Ian Clarkin + Tito Polo + Tyler Clippard ($2.5 million owed, Sox pay) + Yankees pay entire remaining salaries for Robertson/Frazier (Sox save roughly $20 million) Kahnle for Rutherford I like Kahnle, I really do. I know he has shown great improvement this year and has been outstanding, and very well may continue to do so. I also know what happened to Jesse Crain, Scott Linebrink and Nate Jones though. Relief pitching is arguably one of the most volatile positions in the sport. Overall we should be very happy with this deal, as it both saved the club money and added young talent. Hahn has done a tremendous job stocking our farm system with interesting young players. Not all of them will pan out, but the team certainly has plenty of potential options and depth that it did not have 12 months ago. This deal also greatly aids our tank efforts, as I do not see them winning very many games with such a shaky bullpen. Also, consider we traded Gordon Beckham for Yency Almonte...Yency Almonte for Tommy Kahnle...Tommy Kahnle for Blake Rutherford.................we basically used Gordon Beckham to acquire Blake Rutherford

QUOTE (oneofthemikes @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 10:04 AM) Based on the amount of "We got screwed!" I'm seeing both here and on the Yankee forums, I'm going to say that this is actually a very even trade. I thought Polo was pretty underwhelming when I first saw the deal come through, but after seeing his numbers and reading up on him a bit I like him more and more. That's not to say that he's going to make a major impact on the next great Sox team, but I like him more than the guys in the back half of the Q deal. Polo can actually hit fairly well and does have very good speed. I think he ends up playing a role in the majors at some point, unlike Flete or Rose.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:33 AM) Uh nobody thinks that he sucks. But, as a fan, I have seen the sox get screwed by a dominant jesse crain losing his arm, nate jones losing his arm, robertson blowing 8 run leads last year, etc. You would be much better off constantly trading overperforming relief pitchers like Kahnle than trusting that they will continue their performance. I respect that system because it will be right more often than not. You want to bet that Kahnle will be in the "not", and that's a bet I don't want to take. How many relief pitchers have been good for more than 3 years? Spot on. Exactly my line of thinking as well. What more can we expect if Kahnle keeps this up? Rutherford is a good few months away from being considered untouchable. He's not an easy player to part with due to his potential.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 09:16 AM) Seems you just don't like the deal. Might as well not even comment on it anymore. After what happened to Nate Jones I have no idea how you can be an advocate of waiting. That could end up being two pieces that should be traded we lost all value for. And after the A's deal all the Robles talk went out the window. http://pinstripedprospects.com/pinstriped-...utherford-23411 Scouts really like the makeup, bat speed and swing. Not certain he sticks in center field, but Rutherford could develop into a key player for the White Sox in a few years. If he pans out this trade is a major victory for us.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 04:08 AM) Hmm.. I got my eye on you Yordi Rosario. Talk about the deepest of dives haha^^^

QUOTE (StrykerSox @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 06:18 AM) 1. Moncada 2. Jimenez 3. Kopech 4. Robert 5. Rutherford 6. Lopez 7. Hansen 8. Cease 9. Giolito 10. Collins 11. Dunning 12. Burger 13. Adams 14. Fulmer 15. Sheets 16. Stephens 17. Guerrero 18. Burdi 19. Skoug 20. Adolfo 21. Delmonico 22. Fisher 23. Basabe 24. Zavala 25. L. Gonzalez 26. Flores 27. Clarkin 28. Call 29. Yrizarri 30. Yurchak So happy to omit Michalczewski, May, Alvarez, Peter, and other junk that would have possibly been top 10 two years ago. I like this list. Great to see scrubs taken off the list.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:59 AM) There is nothing "depreciating" about Kahnle. Kahnle is a bad two months away from being back to worthless. If he's the next Andrew Miller we made a mistake, but now that we have no bullpen we should be on track for the #1 overall draft pick. Can't see this team winning many more games down the stretch given our rotation, bullpen and offense.

QUOTE (2005thxfrthmmrs @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:53 AM) Yes, the only reason to accept a deal like this is if Rutherford is your guy, and you value him higher than the industry ranks him. (Trading 3 quality ML'er for one top 40 guy is not a good return). The bolded part nails it. I also find it funny that some guys want to treat it as if we traded Robertson for Clarkin, when in the Nationals thread they wanted guys like Kieboom, Soto, etc for Robertson. Clearly we also did not get good return on Robertson either. I like Rutherford a lot, but still feel like this isn't quite enough. A top 10 guy like Andujar, Adams, Sheffield or Mateo instead of Polo would have made this deal much more palatable. Of course we always want more, but the Yankees absorbing Robertson's entire contract I'm sure played into the negotiations. I'm sure we offered to take on salary for a better prospect return, but the Yankees were probably not willing to give up more. Each side has to view the deal as fair to them, and we ended up getting a solid overall package. Sox fans should be thrilled.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:42 AM) If Kahnle becomes elite and Rutherford busts, the trade blew up in their faces. 60 strike outs in 36 innings. I saw something that if he has you 0-2, you are screwed. MLB hitters are 2-39 with 32 strikeouts if they fall behind him 0-2. Sox decided not to be greedy and hold out for a bigger return on Kahnle. A bad month and his trade value would be in the toilet instead of being viewed as a great trade piece. Sox were wise to cash in their main reliever chips now for a quality package. Clarkin is not a bad left handed pitching prospect, his issue has been injuries. Our system needed another lefty. Polo has some upside, and has a decent bat/speed Clippard sucks, but whatever

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:24 AM) Come on, this is completely crazy talk. If that is the thinking, then who is Rutherford in the grand scheme of things? My point is nothing personal against the players themselves, but rather we should deal Robertson/Kahnle now to get what we can. A good closer does nothing for us in 17/18, nor does a great setup man in Kahnle. I'll take the prospects all day for where we are at in the rebuild. Rutherford is certainly the gem of the deal, and despite being several years away could be an impact player. What more were Sox fans really expecting? Have you seen what the return was for JD Martinez and Doolittle/Madson?

QUOTE (GenericUserName @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:21 AM) This point is completely irrelevant. First, I believe most people would agree that Robertson is highly priced, it is a fair price when looking at the markert for closers. Secondly, we were going to trade him, so the value of getting his salary off the books is the same for any trade we would make where we didn't take money. Except we did have to take money in the form of Clippard. Irrelevant to most fans? Probably, but it makes business sense for the Sox to save roughly $20 million for a rebuilding club. I can guarantee you Hahn shopped Robertson and Kahnle on their own and was not thrilled with the offers. A rebuilding club should always be trading relievers due to their volatility as I have stated many times. We will not miss any of the players we just traded, especially by the time we are ready to compete.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:19 AM) The big disconnect here was basically money. Robertson got basically a non return because of the Frazier/robo cash. Kind of annoying but Robert and all. I'm sure Hahn shopped hard and felt this was going to be the best overall return. We all have skewed views from the insane returns that Chapman and Miller received last season. Lets not kid ourselves and pretend we really care all that much about dealing Robertson or Kahnle. Kahnle broke out and helped us land a top 50 prospect in Rutherford, we should all be happy. Cashman is a smart GM, he's not going to let us completely fleece him.

QUOTE (GenericUserName @ Jul 19, 2017 -> 08:07 AM) Here is what I don't get right now: people were throwing around trade ideas of packaging Robertson & Kahnle and a third piece for Robles straight up and everyone said that was crazy and we would never do that. Instead we get a lesser prospect and two lotto tickets and suddenly everyone loves it? This whole deal basically revolves around Rutherford now. I feel like the only way we can win this trade is if Rutherford hits his cieling AND Kahnle regresses to an average ML pitcher or one of the lotto tickets becomes a good player or we are able to flip Clippard for something of value. You are overvaluing what we just traded. 1) Frazier is a pure rental and not worth much in a deal on his own 2) Robertson is a fairly high priced closer on a team with no use for him. Nice to get that salary off of our books. 3) Kahnle has had 3 months of good production, but the track record does not back it up. Could it be a full breakout? Sure, but given what happened to Jones I'm not sure we want to try and get greedy. "Hogs get fat, pigs get slaughtered"