harkness99

Can't remember the last win like that... where wasn't nailbiting until the end...

I never said I thought closers were worth more... just that its their job.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 10:04 AM) Pretty much. Everybody thought saves were useful for a long time; arbitration is still especially broken in that regard, but luckily most GM's today are living in reality. If Wade Davis and Dellin Betances were free agents in 2016 they would get monster crazy bucks, and they have 16 career saves between them. I'm not breaking new ground here; people have been arguing for a long time that saves are horrible. Thank you. Miller is the perfect example. Miller isn't a closer.... If you want to argue that Roberston deserves to go to the all star game just because of Whip/ERA and leave out saves... He still doesn't have as good of stats as a lot of guys. Call me old school though I guess.... I believe a good closer slams that door. Roberston is one of the worst in the AL comparatively at shutting that door.

QUOTE (shysocks @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 09:24 AM) He was signed to pitch well and he has. Saves are and always have been arbitrary and uninformative and I'm not that interested in a detailed discussion of why, but yes, I'll continue to ignore them. But I'm fully aware that they're a big part of how all-stars are chosen. Saves are arbitrary and uninformative... Well agents, managers, GM's, coaches, arbitrators all must be crazy (since this is how Closers get paid).

QUOTE (shysocks @ Jun 23, 2015 -> 09:16 AM) The saves stat is dumb and he's had a damn fine year. That said, I think he at least belongs in the conversation, but there enough other relievers doing ridiculous things in the AL that I'd be unsurprised if he is left out. Sale is a lock. So when he comes into the game and loses the lead/game WHEN THAT'S HIS JOB? that's a "dumb" stat we should ignore... the very thing he was signed to do. lol.... Roberston has been okay - but if you look at the list of closers in the American League... he aint an all star.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 22, 2015 -> 10:37 PM) I guess you measure starters by how many losses they have. .84 WHIP, 12+Ks/9 is an excellent year. I measure a closer by his ability to close games. ERA. WHIP those are all nice (honestly they mean a lot more to me for a starting pitcher) but a closers job is to close. Roberston was great early in the year since then he has been folding like a lawn chair more often then not. He gets in with the lead his job is to keep that lead - the stats say the he leads the American League in FAILING at that job. That's not all star material - I don't recall any defensive lapses behind him either. I can remember 3 of the blown saves for sure and it was 100% him. I cant remember the other but I could look it up.

When nearly every players I underperforming in multiple facets of the game... you have to look at the coaching. I feel like there is some serious head in the sand business going on.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 22, 2015 -> 10:18 PM) Robertson's had an excellent year. Great numbers. But they won't pick him off of a horrible team. Are you serious? Roberston is tied for the AL lead in blown saves. He has not had an excellent year... not even close.

QUOTE (Big Hurtin @ Jun 22, 2015 -> 10:04 PM) Who didn't love to see the substitute teacher come into the classroom? This is exactly how I feel about Ventura. Great White sox player - monumentally misplaced as a major league manager.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jun 22, 2015 -> 08:42 PM) Why did LaRoche bunt? Yeah that made me lol... bunt with 2 outs and a guy batting .222 behind you...

I like how we have a guy batting .172 0 Hr's as a right handed batter cleanup.

hawk is right about the defense... but he better include Danks in that. Might as well just let the other team hit off a tee.

wow that's crazy.

QUOTE (kev211 @ Jun 20, 2015 -> 05:11 PM) I'm not. I'm simply puppeting things people would say if that happened. If Robin gets blamed for putting his closer into the game in the ninth then he cannot win with anyone. That could be. If he left Sale in and Sale gave up a couple base runners - then he should bring in Roberston to be a hero. Ventura has been watching the same Robertson we have been. The guy has been very shaky lately (tied for league lead in blown saves). It was the wrong move. Today was different he didn't have the option to leave the most dominating pitcher in baseball in for 10 more pitches. Robertson was the only choice.

QUOTE (kev211 @ Jun 20, 2015 -> 04:48 PM) Hilarious. If he leaves sale in and sale blows it you'd tear him apart. Or if sale blows his arm out in July people would b**** about riding him too hard earlier in the season. Your closer blowing it isn't robins fault. The defensive miscues and complete lack of offense might be robins fault. Pretty much ignored all the details I posted about the situation. How and why pitchers blow their arms out is highly debatable... I see you are another believe in the fallacy of pitch counts.

Looked it up - Robertson died for AL lead in Blown Saves

Yes was good for Roberston - he needs to go on a good run if he gets opportunities.

QUOTE (Mike F. @ Jun 20, 2015 -> 04:18 PM) You guys are complaining after a win? Jesus. YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY WE WON!!!

Yeah.... I guess Robertson was better. Besides that this team still sucks hard.

QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Jun 20, 2015 -> 03:37 PM) Sure, they're performing to expectations, but they would have sucked anyway. It's really poorly put together baseball team. You were one of the few people not fooled... Talking heads all around baseball... including some pretty respectable ex players/managers of the hall of fame variety thought we were going to be a contender with our moves.

Josh Strong ... I'm not sure you have watched a lot of games or the games Robertson has pitched. Robertson has been not very good at all lately. It was the wrong move in every way.

QUOTE (Joshua Strong @ Jun 20, 2015 -> 01:59 PM) I would've taken Sale out too, he threw 125 pitches his last start and you're playing a guy $11M to close games out in Robertson, who has been money but unfortunately had a bad outing. If it was anything but a 1-0 game I MIGHT have put in Robertson. I don't give a flying eff what I'm paying Robertson. Win the game. I'll put Robertson in when its the right move not just because I paid him (Robertson has been far from money lately) But at the least I let Sale start the inning. Pitch counts are so overrated.

Hahn made good moves... Most of it is on the players they have performed horribly. But when the VAST MAJORITY or your players absolutely play well beneath there capability. How can you know look at the coaching staff? It's all just bad luck?

QUOTE (scs787 @ Jun 20, 2015 -> 12:21 PM) Takes me back to the Angels game last year. Sale was dealing but up over 100 pitches. He ended up giving up a HR to Trout and Robin got absolutely blasted for not pulling him sooner. Hindsight is a funny thing. Not even close to the same thing - Was a 5-0 game and a bunch of other factors. I'm not even going to argue that game because there were a lot of other things that happened (one being which I mentioned above,,, Sale giving up a couple baserunners) That's just another example of failure though and its has Jackchit to do with hindsight - Not one thing do to with it. I'm sitting there and watching the game- RIGHT when I see Robertson on the mound I turn to my wife and tell her this game is over- another loss. She looks at me questioningly and I say this pitcher right here doesn't have his confidence lately. Minutes later its a 2-1 game. My wife says "If you know that ... how come the coach doesn't?" Hindsight my rear end. Now you could say well you just got lucky in the prediction there... But be honest when we saw Roberston come in we knew what was going to happen.. we all did. It was so obvious.

QUOTE (reiks12 @ Jun 20, 2015 -> 11:25 AM) And if Sale was left in and gave up a run or two you would have made a thread stating we should have put Robertson in BullS*** I guess you missed the part where I said if Sale gave up a baserunner or two then put Roberston in. But if they left Sale in we wouldn't have been having this discussion. Sure as can GD be sure - they weren't touching him all game and he wasn't getting tired. Those thinking Robertson was supposed to be the guy... well yeah earlier in the year I would have believed it. But lately the guy has been shaky, he hasn't looked confident. - the situation, the losing streak - a 1-0 game. The guy with the stones to handle it in this situation was Chris Sale and only Chris Sale. I