VAfan

Perhaps this could be added as a subtitle of the Paul Konerko: Mild Concussion thread, which dwells mostly on our anemic bench? I did search post headings before I added this, and it wasn't obvious the Konerko thread would start this topic.

I started a "Sox need a bench" post not realizing that "Paulie has a concussion" was a post about our anemic bench. Maybe "Sox need a bench" could be made a subtitle of this thread and my post could be put here?

We may have one of the weakest benches of any team in the majors. Orlando Hudson -- he's horrible. John Danks -- not ready for the bench yet. Needs real playing time to be productive in backup role. Ray Olmedo -- just a body once we traded Escobar, who was probably our best bench player. Tyler Flowers -- the best of the lot, only because he can catch the ball. His hitting is as bad as the rest. These last two games against KC where we had multiple subs against sub-par KC pitching and scored only 3 runs prove that the bench is a valuable part of any team that aspires to win something meaningful. -- I'd rather see DeWayne Wise over Jordan Danks at the moment. -- We really need to cut Hudson and send Olmedo back down and find a good utility infielder -- switch hitter would be nice. -- I'd love to see a right handed power guy who could pinch hit and help rest Dunn against lefties. If he's good enough, he might also give Konerko a breather. -- Flowers has to stay, for better or worse. But we need him to be the only sub in games he plays. I have no idea who may be available. But we can't wait for September call-ups to fill these holes. Get on it, Kenny!

Humber has been better on the road than at home, but not enough better to deserve starting over the other five. Still, it's better to have him in reserve than have no one. Maybe he can become effective in shorter stints.

QUOTE (GoodAsGould @ Jul 7, 2012 -> 12:55 PM) Dunn looked awful vs a lefty? Who would of thought that would happen. The Sox might benefit if they could add a right-handed bench bat in place of Hudson who could give Dunn some time off in the second half against lefties. You could go with Escobar more, with Youkilis at 1B and Konerko at DH, but that's not ideal. I have no idea who might be available.

It's not as if I'm having sleepless nights or anything. And I wouldn't give it more than a passing thought if this team hadn't turned into contenders overnight. Start of the season, I thought the Tigers would dominate the division. I thought there were too many things that had to go right for us to contend. But after this stretch, where nearly everything that needed to go right has, I think the team is very well positioned to fight for the division crown. But if we make the playoffs, will we have much chance? Possibly. With only Texas dominant, we'd have a chance. It's just that if we had one more dominant pitcher like Gonzalez .... I'd think we could beat Texas and make the World Series. Whatever. As I said, I just wanted to get this off my chest so I could move on. We actually could beat anyone. It will just take a few more things going right.

Because I live outside Washington, DC, I hear about Gio Gonzalez a fair amount. I don't really follow the Nats or the National League. But every time I hear about Gonzalez it pains me. I don't even want to watch him pitch. Could you imagine Gonzalez in a Sox uniform right now? We could have given him John Danks' money and traded Danks for whatever we could get. Here's Gio Gonzalez's stats page. We had Gonzalez twice. We traded him to the Phillies in the Jim Thome deal, and then got him back, with Gavin Floyd for Freddie Garcia. In January 2008, we traded him, Sweeney, and De Los Santos for Nick Swisher. And since we have nothing to show for trading Swisher to the Yankees, is this the worst trade that KW has ever made? If our rotation swapped out Gonzalez for Danks, we would be World Series contenders. We may be anyway, but you get my point. Just wanted to get this off my chest.

I can't see KW moving anyone until he sees where we are in early July. At our current pace, which includes our last 20 games, the Sox are certainly playoff contenders. We're much stronger than the Indians, with only the Tigers as legitimate rivals. And if the Sox are playoff contenders, KW's history is to do everything he can to add, never subtract. Some of the suggestions on this thread strike me as crazy. Trading Ramirez? His offense will come around, but his defense makes him worth his contract regardless Trade Dunn? That's been mostly shot down, as Dunn has returned to his regular form. Trade Rios? Possibly, but who would really take his whole contract, and who would replace him? Trade Thornton and Crain? Our bullpen has already cost us this season. KW won't dump bullpen vets the team will need when game pressure gets more intense. People didn't think this team could win because a lot of things had to fall in place. Dunn and Rios had to rebound. Viciedo had to hit. Beckham or Morel had to hit. De Aza had to hold up in the lead off spot. Peavy had to stay healthy and be decent. Sale had to make the transition to starter. Danks couldn't melt down like he did last year. Humber had to be okay. Floyd needed to be over .500. We needed to find a closer. Just about all the things that needed to happen have happened. The offense, which was pathetic last year, was tied for 3rd in runs scored going into today's game. Peavy has been the pitcher KW thought he was buying years ago. Sale is an ace already. Danks and Floyd don't have to be 1-2, but just 3-4. Humber has been ok. Quintana made a nice spot start, showing we have some depth. Reed has given us a solid closer, which lines up the rest of the bullpen. From this point forward, I expect things to get better in some areas, and to tail off in others. Offensively, I expect De Aza to stay about the same, Beckham to show considerable improvement, Dunn to end up his normal career numbers -- about 40 HRs, 100 RBI, .240-50 average, with enough walks to keep his OBP high. Konerko will tail off, but remain solid. Rios will be up and down; not fantastic but not terrible. AJ will tail off too, but will have an above-average year. He's already way ahead of norms for HRs and RBI. Viciedo will continue getting better. Ramirez has been worse than normal, but should improve. Hudson is a reasonable stop-gap at 3B. Even if his hitting isn't great, he walks and can still run. This is an offense that can compete. We have fewer automatic outs in the lineup, and more HR power. I actually worry more about the pitching, esp. the starting pitching. Danks has a sore shoulder. Floyd has bad stretches. Humber is not as steady as he was last year. Sale briefly had arm issues already; can he hold up for a full season? Peavy hasn't stayed healthy for years. I think the bullpen is good now that Reed is closing. If I was going to make a move, it would be for the starting staff. Maybe if you moved Floyd you could take on another starter. But I wouldn't do anything now. Floyd has had great stretches in the past -- the 26-5 stretch, e.g., and might easily again. Other than Texas, there isn't a dominant team in the AL. So, if the Sox make the playoffs, we could compete. Ventura's philosophy is one-day-at-a-time. I think that's where KW should be too. If we can compete now, which we are doing, don't sell out for the future, and don't mortgage the future for a marginal improvement this year. Sit tight and re-evaluate in early July.

Here's the day I most remember from the 1972 season. I was in high school, and a buddy of mine joined me for this doubleheader. We were sitting in the left field bleachers, and Dick Allen's pinch hit HR was headed straight for us when it left the bat, but we ended up missing it by a few rows of seats. Found this description on Sox Talk. 1972: Dick Allen’s three-run pinch-hit walkoff homer handed the White Sox a sweep-clinching 5-4 win over the Yankees in Game 2 of a doubleheader before a Bat Day crowd of 51,904 at Comiskey Park. The blast made a winner out of Cy Acosta, who pitched a scoreless top of the ninth in his big league debut. In the opener, the Sox rode a four-run third -- thanks to two-RBIs each by Mike Andrews and Carlos May -- to a 6-1 win. Tom Bradley gave up one run on six hits with one walk and eight strikeouts in a complete game effort to improve to 6-2.

QUOTE (VictoryMC98 @ Sep 24, 2011 -> 07:05 PM) huh? Firing KW, fixes allot of problems... if they hire his replacement correctly. BTW, KW created this team.. But, you don't want to fire him... Why? Firing KW won't make Dunn or Rios hit better, or Peavy pitch better. That's my point.

My own view is that Peavy is the one who might be tradeable, precisely because he does have only one year left on his deal. I think it will be very hard to trade Rios or Dunn, though I do like the idea of Dunn getting hot early and being moved at the trade deadline. At that point he will have had only one wretched season under his belt, and it will have been in the AL, so an NL team might think he'll revert to his NL norm. But isn't this the biggest downer for us Sox fans? How can we hope to compete next year unless these players earn their contracts, and how can we possibly hope for that? At least guys like Gordon Beckham, another underperformer, don't cost much. Ramirez WAR 4.4 Konerko WAR 3.2 Quentin WAR 2.6 De Aza WAR 2.2 Pierzynski WAR 1.7 Beckham WAR 1.1 Morel WAR 1.0 Flowers WAR 0.4 Viciedo WAR 0.3 Pierre WAR 0.3 Rios WAR -1.2 Dunn WAR -2.7 This is pretty pitiful. Jettisoning Pierra for De Aza has to help some. It might be better to DH Quentin to try to keep him healthy, with Viciedo in RF. But then where do you get lefty power? And can this team hit HRs? It's awful. Dunn's WAR was 3.5 in 2010 for Washington. And Rios posted a WAR of 3.7 for us in 2010. But can either one bounce back and put up those kind of numbers? Do we want to bet next season on it? BTW -- firing KW at this point doesn't fix the problem. I'd actually say letting Ozzie go has a much better chance of making a difference.

Dunn, Rios, and Peavy. These are three of the highest paid players on the Sox, and three of the least productive. Is there any chance the Sox can unload any of them this offseason? Wouldn't the Sox be better off without all 3 of them, even if they had to eat a chunk of each of their contracts? Or is the only option to try to get all of them to perform better in 2012? Perhaps with a new manager and new batting coach, and maybe a new pitching coach.

This is the sub-.600 OPS squad on the Sox. Adam Dunn 96 331 30 54 13 0 11 39 100 58 142 0 1 .163 .294 .302 .596 Brent Morel 79 255 22 66 10 0 1 19 79 4 29 2 4 .259 .278 .310 .587 Omar Vizquel 48 142 14 36 5 1 0 8 43 6 17 1 2 .254 .280 .303 .583 Mark Teahen† 51 118 11 24 3 0 3 11 36 12 28 0 1 .203 .277 .305 .582 Alex Rios 105 386 45 83 17 0 7 26 121 22 45 9 5 .215 .259 .313.572 Dunn and Rios have received well-deserved criticisms. Their bloated contracts make it impossible to move them, so we will have to hope they break out. But why is Brent Morel getting a pass? Is he ever going to hit well enough to be a legitimate ML 3rd baseman? Of all the ML 3B listed this year, he ranks 45th. A few others as bad or worse have gotten around his 255 ABs -- Miguel Tejada, Juan Uribe, Chone Figgins, Brandon Inge -- but this doesn't seem a worthy reason to keep trotting Morel out there. And clearly Vizquel is no better. My own view would be to bring up Dayan Viciedo to play 3B. He could also play some OF and DH, but the one place he'd make the most difference offensively would be 3B. We'd lose a little defensively, but we still need more offense, and Viciedo would be a significant upgrade.

Ok, I'll bite. I wouldn't get rid of either of them. I don't think the Sox are out of the race by any means. And they certainly aren't going to get back in the race by firing KW or Ozzie Guillen. In my view, things could be a LOT WORSE. Didn't we let Tony LaRussa go? How did that work out? Ozzie is an unconventional manager, and KW is an unconventional GM. But I would never count either one of them out. They are both intensely competitive. They bleed for the Sox. And for all the bad moves and bonehead deals, there are counter moves and good deals to balance them out and keep us competitive. I would ask anyone who has posted here to name the replacement for Ozzie or KW that is currently available, and then explain why that person is better and would clearly improve the Sox. It's easy to say "blow it up." It's much harder to figure out how to put it together again.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 11:36 PM) Just let Alexei leadoff. Then who hits second? I wouldn't mess with Alexei at this point. He's done well at #2. Rios, on the other hand, needs a change of scenery. The only time he's hit for us was nearer the top of the lineup.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 13, 2011 -> 11:33 PM) What dream world are you living in? Release a guy out of "respect to a veteran player?" I know you want him gone, but that is a total reach. The guy is hitting .260 which is not worthless no matter what you Juan-haters think. You don't just release the guy. You trade him or add Dayan and platoon him with Juan. I am assuming Viciedo is playing left in the minors. If he's playing right we really have problems cause Dayan probably will be a butcher in left if he's used to right. Pierre is still ranked by fangraphs as the worst OF in the AL with a -1 WAR. http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=...=2011&ind=0

I'd love to dump Pierre too. If he went, and Viciedo took over in LF, I would move Rios to the top of the lineup. I think he might hit much better there, knowing his role is to get on base and run. I'd keep Lillibridge in reserve and use him as we do now to give guys a break, and as a LIDP. Have Viciedo hit #6 behind Dunn. Rios Ramirez Quentin Konerko Dunn Viciedo AJ Beckham Morel Bench: Lillibridge, Vizquel, Castro, Teahan. If Dunn starts hitting, that lineup would hit a ton of HRs. We'd also strike out a lot.

Why exactly are we speculating about trading off elements of the team? The Sox are 3.5 games back. Cleveland is in free fall, so the only team ahead of us with a chance to win the division is Detroit. I wouldn't count the Twins out -- they have played only 25 home games v. 40 road games -- but we still have a lead on them. I would expect this group of guys to start playing even better, and therefore would not be expecting KW to be dealing them.

At what point do the Sox just bench Dunn for awhile because they need someone who can hit the ball better -- like Mark Teahan?? LOL. (Check out his numbers, he's no better than Dunn.) The most alarming of Dunn's numbers? He's being outslugged by Juan Pierre (.315 to .309). The Sox don't really have anyone to fill Dunn's shoes, unless we were to promote Dayan Viciedo. Maybe we should bring up the kid and play him for a week instead of Dunn. Another option is to sit Dunn until we resume interleague play when he'll get NL pitching, and if he shows signs then, put him back in. We don't want to bench Konerko, so that means play Dunn during IL games at home, when the DH is in effect. For Rios, my gut tells me that Ozzie should put more pressure on him by having him hit leadoff in place of Juan Pierre. The only good news out of this that I can see is that despite these horrid years from two high-paid players and other assorted woes, the Sox are only 6 games back of Cleveland. I think we can already see, however, that the Tigers are the real threat.

Has anyone mentioned John Danks for the pen? He's 0-7, overall the team has won only one game he started, and he has the worst ERA of our 6 starters at 4.34. If you are going to have a debate about who should move to the pen, Danks' name has to be discussed. Indeed, maybe the best way to hit "reset" on Danks' season would be to send him to the pen until the All Star Break (or until someone else falters or he starts pitching lights out from the pen), and then re-evaluate. Shouldn't the Sox consider what's best for the team? From all indications, John Danks has no intention of accepting a contract extension from the Sox.

If Konerko comes back, he's hitting clean up, period. That's where he's hit for years, and I don't see Ozzie moving him. Konerko has a better OBP, hit for a much higher average, strikes out much less, etc. There's every reason to hit him ahead of Dunn, not vice versa. I see Dunn at #5, right in the middle of the lineup. That leaves Rios back at #3. If Quentin found his hitting stroke, he could be #3. But he's more likely going to hit 6th. Beckham, if he hits, would be best hitting second. If he doesn't hit, he's going to be at the bottom of the lineup. Ramirez has no business hitting at the top unless he returns to the .300 hitting ways when he was a rookie. Pierre, Beckham, Rios, Konerko, Dunn, Quentin, AJ, Ramirez, Morel/Teahan.

Does health explain a lot of PK's and D Lee's 2010 seasons? PK was completely healthy for the first time in years, while Lee fought various ailments? If this is true, and there is any chance Lee is not fully healed, then it would be silly to invest in Lee when you are trying to win a championship. Konerko was a top-5 hitter in baseball, measured by RC 27. He generated 8.32 runs/game. Lee generated 4.77 runs/game, to rank 87th. Overall runs created was 121.1 to 76.9. Carlos Quentin was more productive than D Lee last year. If your interest was trying to maximize production on the cheap, then you might sign Lee and hope he rebounds by being healthier. But if you are trying to pass the Twins and win the championship, you can't give up the potential run-producing difference between PK and D Lee.

Why not two years and an option that vests at 500 PAs in 2012 for PK? PK was making noise even at the end of last year about "retiring." I don't think he wants to hang on if he's hurting or not productive. But I do think he'd love to make another run at a championship, and with the Sox.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Dec 4, 2010 -> 01:14 AM) From the rumors I have seen, it sounds like Werth is gonna get somewhere around 5 years, $75-$80 million. If thats the case, then the Sox would definitely be better off with Konerko. Do not want to spend that much money on Werth. I would agree that at that level, Werth would be beyond the Sox means.

It is obvious the Sox are trying to sign Konerko, now that Dunn is in hand. And I think that's a fine choice, unless Konerko is looking for a 4 year deal. Two years with an option would be ideal. Perhaps 3 years would be the compromise solution. But I wonder if the Sox would be better off with Jayson Werth instead of Konerko. I love Paulie, but from a pure baseball perspective, what would be better? Werth would give us a plus right fielder. His offense has improved each of the last 4 years. He's 31 instead of 34, which means we'd be getting years with the potential for upside, and much less potential for a slide. Konerko has had injury issues in the past, and is slow as molasses. Werth can actually steal a base, and almost never gets caught. With Werth in RF, Dunn would play 1B, and Quentin would DH. That make it easier to keep him healthy. He could play LF occasionally. What I don't know is how much Werth is demanding. He made only $7.5 mill last year, so he'll surely want a big raise. But if he came at the same price as Paulie, which would make for a better team? (Who would back up 1B? Teahan could, as could Viciedo.) Werth's agent is Scott Boras. That may well end this piece of speculation.