VAfan

Maybe I won't root for the Twins after all, unless they get the Yanks. I definitely don't want to see the Yanks win another WS.

I think people lose perspective rather quickly. It's like people wanting to vote back in the Republicans because the country hasn't rebounded from the ditch they drove us into over the 8 years of George Bush. INSANE! Ozzie and Kenny brought the Sox the only World Series winning team in my lifetime. My father lived into his 80s, but he never saw the White Sox win the World Series, and he only saw them play in it once. That buys them a huge amount of rope in my eyes. And it's not as if the Sox have failed to be competitive in the other years that KW and Ozzie were in charge. Only one year have we really been completely out of it. So, my short answer would be that I'd rather let these guys work it out and try to fix the team before I'd jettison either one of them. All of their moves do not work. But many of them have. Now, if Ozzie wants to jump ship to the Marlins, then I would say, BYE. I think Kenny's response is perfect. You were hired because you bleed for the Chicago White Sox. If Ozzie ever loses that passion, he's no longer valuable to the team. But if Ozzie realizes he was just saying that out of a momentary funk, then I'd have no problem keeping him around.

I hate the Minnesota Twins. I really hated their ridiculous ballpark that helped them win all those division crowns this decade. I hated the fact that they would win the division based on a huge home field advantage, then invariably get exposed in the playoffs by better teams from the East or West. I hated them for depriving the Sox of the chance to face off in the playoffs, where I think we often had a stronger team but just couldn't get keep it together for 162 games. Yet, this year my hat's off to them. They have won the division going away, even after the Sox caught and passed them before the ASB, and looked to have a team that could beat them down the stretch. They have won without their former MVP at first base for the entire second half. The Sox put a lot of pressure on them by winning the first 7 games of a road trip to Cleveland, Boston, and Detroit in late August, but the Twins matched the Sox win for win, and it was the Sox who blinked first, sending us into a tailspin that we never recovered from. Meanwhile, the Twins have caught and passed the Yanks and Rays for best record in the AL, with Texas a distant runner up. And they have won it all on a normal outdoor grass field ballpark. So, this year, I think I'm rooting for the Twins in the AL playoffs. If the Sox aren't in, then a team from the AL Central should rule. We will have lost to the best. (I say "I think" b/c when the playoffs start, I may have a hard time hoping Minny wins anything.) Feel free to blast me. But that's where I am at the moment.

Okay, this was not one of my best prediction threads.

I've been away for several days, during which the Sox went from 3-1/2 back to 6 back. But I don't think the season is over. I still think this is going to come down to the respective last series of the year when we host Cleveland and the Twins are at Toronto. The Twinkies have been playing above their heads for some time. I think they have to hit a reality stretch. The Sox just need to start it over the next 3 games. This has been a wierd year of streaks. There are enough games left to see one more.

QUOTE (WilliamTell @ Sep 6, 2010 -> 04:20 PM) The Twins are 35-19 in the AL Central and 23-10 in the AL West posting a 58-29 record in both divisions or a .667 winning percentage. They were only 8-10 in interleague and 14-18 against the AL East. Unfortunately they only have 4 more games with the AL East which are against the Blue Jays. 18 left against the AL Central and 3 against the AL West. This is one thing I hate about the Twins. They keep winning division titles by beating up on weak teams. But they are never a serious pennant contender. The Sox at least try to put together a team that can compete in the postseason if we get there. This year is no exception. Who do you think the other AL teams would rather face in the postseason? The Twins or Sox?

Didn't post yesterday, but Manny had a significant impact in Sunday's comeback win. By pinch hitting with one out in the 8th, he induced Francona to go get Papelbon, trying for a 5-out save. Well, it didn't work, as Papelbon tired in the 9th and was yanked after giving up the 2 tying runs. Today, Ramirez took Konerko's spot in the lineup. He went 3 for 5. His first hit started a 2-run inning to tie the game at 2. His last hit led off the 10th. He took an extra base when the outfielder booted the ball, and the pinch runner scored the winning run. To my count, Manny has had a valuable role in all 6 games since he came over. We've won 4 of them with late rallies -- 8th inning or later. Since the Twins have also continued winning, had any of these games been losses instead, the Sox would be really hurting.

I assume there is a A LOT more to managing than deciding when to pull a pitcher, or how to write a lineup card. Ozzie's decisions drive me a bit crazy too, but I give him a heck of a lot of credit for some of the other things he does. He takes the heat off his playera. He takes no guff. He bleeds for the White Sox. For the most part, his guys play hard for him. And he generally manages his pitchers well. I've seen a Sox fan since 1970. The only Sox manager I would rate ahead of Guillen since then would be Tony LaRussa, and he didn't bring us a World Series title. For Chicago baseball fans, there is only one manager that has led a Chicago team to the World Series since 1917, and it is Ozzie Guillen. I'd say that earns him more than the benefit of the doubt. You could have a ton of guys playing things more by the book, but there is no guarantee they could lead a locker room full of men to win a World Championship. You guys just sound like whiny babies railing against Ozzie all the time.

Wow, I didn't realize this until late this afternoon. I went to bed with a 7-3 Twins lead. This could be THE game that hurts the Twins, given the game swing in the standings and all the pitching issues it raises for them all of a sudden. I've been waiting for their pitching to come back to earth. They were bad at the end of the first half, then too good to start the second half. If they settle back to reality, a good Sox run can and will catch them.

Has anyone noticed that the Sox have scored the second most number of runs in baseball since the All-Star Break? http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/batting/split/182 I'd noticed we were hitting better, but when I ran the splits, this surprised me.

QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Sep 1, 2010 -> 08:49 AM) Ozzie didn't make a great call in sitting Manny. Yes, we won the game, but we won because AJ hit a 3-run homerun. Kotsay (who Manny would have been playing in place of) had nothing to do with the 3 runs that led to the Sox win. I'm not saying Manny would have created any more runs, but Kotsay certainly didn't. Kotsay drew the walk that became the tying run yesterday in the 8th.

To my mind, the value in the Manny deal is that he gives a HUGE mental boost to a team that really needed it after the repeated bullpen meltdowns in late July and August. Judging by back-to-back rallies in the 8th and 9th innings, I think the deal has already shown itself to be of value. I think the SOX believe they can win again and catch the Twins, and that's half the battle. We've already seen a motivated, focused Sox team go on a tremendous tear. With Manny on the team, the chances of it happening again are much improved. Plus, teams will pitch our guys differently with Manny in the lineup. And once he gets his timing back, Manny himself will start to rake.

At the time of the trade for Jackson, which I supported, I argued that Jackson's real value was that if we made the postseason this year -- and at the time we were in first place -- he could be dominant enough to win games for us in October, and that without him in the rotation our pitching didn't match up well against possible post-season opponents. I didn't think Hudson could be relied on in October this year, and regardless of his success in AZ, I still think that.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/early-lea...andez_ends.html Given the desperate state of our pen, anyone want to add him when rosters expand?

What is the lineup going to be with Manny in it? I would hope for: Pierre Rios Manny Konerko Quentin Pierzynski Alexei Vizquel/Viciedo/Teahan Beckham In this lineup, Quentin could be as important anyone, because he's going to be up with more guys on base.

The recent meltdowns by the Sox bullpen, and other assorted woes, could be enough to make many teams wilt and fade away down the stretch, much like the Tigers went into the tank recently. But if the Sox were the team with a 4 game lead with 41 games to go, including 3 more head-to-head, I would guarantee you that no one in the Minnesota clubhouse would think they were out of it. Indeed, they might think -- we've got them right where we want them! This Sox team has already put together one of the hottest month+-long stretches in team history. There should be no reason to think it can't play well enough to make up 4 games on the Twins by October. Heck, we may have finally burst the Carl Pavano bubble. And we otherwise hit Twin pitching pretty hard. So, buckle up. I don't think the ride for this season is over yet.

As long as the Sox continue to win, only KW will be able to move Kotsay. If the Sox started losing, I think even Ozzie would mix things up. So, we should be happy seeing Kotsay in the lineup -- it means we're still winning!

So what is the solution? It's easy to rail against Bobby, but if you bump him, then you weaken the set up core considerably. Right now, Putz and Thornton make a formidable duo that can cover any parts of the 7th and 8th innings. If you move one of them to closer, then either Bobby has to take their place, or you have to elevate Santos. That may be fine and good, but Santos has no real experience, so it is hard to know how he'll do in a pennant race. You could mix Sale in here as well, and demote Bobby all the way down to almost Linebrink status for a while. I think we're going to need the good Bobby Jenks to win the division, and the pennant, so I wouldn't write him off completely. I'd work on getting his curveball back so he's not so predictable.

Whitesoxfan, you and I both posted before last night's game. While I would say the sample size is small, and therefore the jury is still out, I wouild note that Mr. Cooper has already done a fair amount of magic with Mr. Jackson. Looking only at last night's game, and realizing further improvement could be made, don't you think the Jackson trade is looking a whole lot better than almost anyone on Sox Talk thought? Not only was he not tipping pitches, but he didn't walk anyone until the 8th inning, and didn't even get to 3 strikes on them. And for all the Tiger singles, I'm trying to remember if any of them even reached 3rd base before Jackson was pulled. I'm thrilled with the trade at this point. I think with further improvement -- for example, several of the Tigers hits looked like they came off Jackson's change up or whatever that soft-tossing pitch was that he threw up to guys he had 2 strikes on -- Jackson could perform as well as Jake Peavy might have. As for the Dunn v. Jackson debate, we aren't going to outslug the Yankees or Rangers with our without Dunn. We have to outpitch them to win. Jackson gives us a much better chance to do so than we had a week ago.

Most of this discussion took place while I was on vacation and away from the internet. And I confess I haven't read nearly 1800 posts. But I've read a lot of them, and I find myself disagreeing with most of the position's taken. Position #1 -- Jackson is a lousy pitcher. While I don't totally disagree with this view, I think the more accurate view is that Jackson is a pitcher with an electric arm who hasn't consistently harnessed his talent yet. As a 26-year old with several years of ML service, Jackson still has plenty of time to become not only a good pitcher, but a dominant one. He's got to learn how to locate the strike zone better, mostly. And not tip his pitches. These are fixable problems. Position #2 -- Jackson isn't worth Hudson and Holmberg. A lot of this argument was made on the length of Sox control and relative cost difference between the players. These are not invalid points. But almost no one seemed to notice that Jackson is the type of power pitcher the Sox do not have, and who could be immensely valuable in the postseason if he fixes his mechanical/tipping problems. Hudson would be almost worthless to the Sox in the postseason this year. (Anyone here willing to start him against the Yanks, Rays, or Rangers? Would you use him in relief in anything other than a game that has already been lost?) Jackson could be a starter that might pitch anywhere from the #1-#4 positions. He could get crushed. But he could also dominate and win you a ballgame almost by himself. Position #3 -- We shoulda gotten Dunn, and KW was an idiot for getting Jackson without a guaranteed flip for Dunn. I wrote a while ago that I didn't want Dunn, and I'm glad we didn't get him. He is the definition of the 2-month rental. IMHO, Jackson is the more valuable piece, especially if he rights himself, because he could win a postseason game by himself, and he's got a second year on his contract. I wanted Roy Oswalt, not Jackson. But Roy was refusing a deal to Chicago, and in Jackson we get a guy with Roy's power pitching arm albeit in a much less polished form. So the job is to straighten out Jackson, not pine for Dunn. Freddy Garcia made Dunn look silly this year. Don't you think the Yanks/Rays/Rangers lefties could do the same in the postseason? I think Jackson is a reasonable addition. Not ideal, perhaps, but very reasonable. Don Cooper can certainly fix his tipping pitches problem. If can also get him to control his wildness, he could be the key to the postseason. Danks, Floyd, Buehrle, Garcia look overmatched to me in postseason matchups against the Yanks and Rays at least. By inserting Jackson for Garcia, I think the Sox will have a better chance to advance. Again, I would rather have had Roy Oswalt, but he wasn't available.

I think Luke Scott and Bautista make a lot of sense, though I like Scott more because he'd cost less. Scott has played the same positions as Kotsay, which makes dumping Kotsay easier too.

Whether we get Oswalt or not, I don't want Dunn at the price of a major-league player like Viciedo or Hudson. These guys are not prospects in my opinion, they are current major league players. If you are going to pay that price, you should get the guy for more than one shot at the postseason.

I hope the Sox DO NOT trade for Adam Dunn. The reasons are many. 1. Carlos Quentin needs to DH much of the second half to stay healthy. Getting Dunn will relegate Quentin to the OF, where if he gets hurt, will negate much of the value of adding Dunn as a bat. 2. Dunn does not want to DH, and therefore would not be looking to help the Sox after this year. Why add a potential malcontent to a happy clubhouse? 3. What would Dunn's presence do for Paul Konerko? With his "retirement" comments, it looks like Konerko is positioning himself to return to the Sox on maybe a 2-year + option deal. If Dunn were here, you'd have to offer him arbitration to get the draft picks. What if he accepted? Would that mean having to cut payroll, i.e., Paul Konerko? 4. The W. Post talks about the price being Viciedo+ or Hudson+. Viciedo is likely our best young hitter not named Beckham. He can play 3B, 1B, DH, and probably the outfield. Why trade a young hitter for a rental before we know how good he is. Forget Cabrera -- remember Bobby Bonilla. Bonilla was traded for Doug Drabek I think. Drabek was done, Bonilla took off. Hudson is our 5th starter. We have nothing reliable behind him. After the semi-meltdown in Minnesota this week, we have to keep our identity, which is solid starting pitching. I wouldn't trade either for a rental player. I would trade Hudson for a better pitcher like Roy Oswalt. I probably wouldn't trade Viciedo at all -- not until I give him a better chance to see what his upside might be. 5. Let's say we get to the postseason. You are trading good young players under control for several years for basically 20 ABs from Adam Dunn. Pitching dominates the postseason, not lumbering sluggers like Adam Dunn. Dunn has no postseason experience, so we have nothing to go on. But given the struggles of guys like A-Rod and Bonds and others in the postseason, you might get nothing at all out of Dunn. In the only Sox game I've been to this year (at Nationals Park), Freddy Garcia handled him easily. How do you think he'll do against CC Sabathia and Andy Pettitte? 6. Dunn destroys flexibility. He's a lumbering DH who doesn't want to DH. If you put him in the field, it's worse. 7. Starting pitching is the key to the postseason. The Sox should be angling for a guy like Roy Oswalt. Gives us a power pitcher at the front of the rotation. Helps all pitching matchups in the postseason. Keeps him away from the Yanks/Tigers/Twins. Much more likely to win a postseason game than a slugger like Dunn. I would take Dunn only if the price were no front-line prospects, but I assume Washington would pass and take the draft picks instead if they can't sign him.

I remember Joe Crede making 3 or 4 game saving plays when we clinched the Series 1-0 over the Astros. And then Uribe closed it out with the last two outs -- the amazing dive into the stands and the great charge and throw to end it. It's one thing to make some very fine plays in the middle of July in a game that isn't that close. It's another thing to make them in the World Series in a 1-0 thriller. When this unit gets there, I'll give them all the props in the world. But let's remember the 05 team got there with pitching and D too.

The Dunn/Fielder speculation is just as much of a long shot. Dunn is long b/c when have the Sox gone for 3-month rentals? Fielder b/c his agent is Scott Boras and he wants Howard money. Dunn will also cost a lot b/c he's worth 2 compensation picks to the Nats if he walks. Fielder will cost more. Oswalt, arguably, will cost less in prospects because of his contract, or at least no more than Dunn. On the upside, if you get Oswalt, you get him for two seasons, not one. Two chances to win it all. And here's another factor we aren't really talking about. If any team would want Hudson, how can the Sox ship out Hudson for Dunn? Who's our 5th starter? Tony Pena?