VAfan

QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jul 8, 2009 -> 07:40 AM) I didn't learn about this trade until late last night. And the first thing that popped into my head was that I'm 100% certain that all of Soxtalk is going absolutely apes*** right about now. And after reading through this thread, you guys certainly didn't disappoint. First of all, who the hell is anybody from this god damn message board to say with absolute certainty (or even 50% certainty) that the Sox "could've gotten more" for Brandon f***in' Allen? Unless you can find a direct quote from any one of the 28 other general managers in baseball clearly stating they would've traded the Sox a lot more than Tony Pena for Brandon Allen then please, with all due respect, STFU! Because all you do is make yourself look and sound incredibly stupid. I like this board overall. But the ignorance/arrogance around here at times is simply incomprehensible. Unless your JPN or Scenario or BHAMBARONS and you happen to live close by one of our minor league affiliates or you're a subscriber to MILB.com, most of you have never seen a single f***ing live Brandon Allen at-bat. And that includes me. s***, I love to track prospects. But I have no first-hand knowledge about any of these guys. All I can do is go by stats, scouting reports, ect. Yet we've got message board "experts" around here on their f***ing high horses acting like they know more than guys that get PAID FOR A LIVING to scout and break these guys down? Get the f*** outta here. Brandon Allen for the most part appears to be a solid prospect. He could be really good, bad or somewhere inbetween. Who knows? And we won't know for a while. So let's stop acting like we traded away the next Ryan Howard.

Getting Quentin back is the key to the season. With him, I believe we can and should win the division. Without him, it's going to be a struggle. KW would definitely have to trade for a major bat.

Jose is an ultra-streaky pitcher. In 2005, he couldn't lose in the second half. Carried it over into the beginning of 2006, then fell off the face of the earth. Now he seems to be close to being back on one of those hot streaks. But at some point, it's going to go South again. I wouldn't want him on any kind of multi-year deal, and why would he settle for less? Just enjoy the good and hope he can keep it up through the end of this season. If he can, we'll definitely be in the running to win the division, and even make noise beyond. No more Javier Vazquez wimping out on us. Put Richard in the pen and we'd have a very nice playoff rotation.

I think it's fine for Beckham to be in the bottom third of the lineup for a while longer. It gives us juice down there; something for opposing pitchers to worry about. If we could only get Quentin back ... our offense could go from one of the worst early to one of the best.

It ain't happening this season, but the "solution" is for the Sox to get a left handed power hitting RF who is much better defensively than Jermaine Dye and hits better than Jim Thome. Then the Sox could re-sign Dye for his bat, which is still better than any other player the Sox have, and move him to DH next season. (The same player could also play LF or CF and we'd accomplish the same thing.) No way would I trade Dye or Thome. I think the most likely thing is for us to keep them beyond this season, frankly, on cheaper short-term deals. The real defensive move should be to put Beckham at 2B in the infield, where he ought to field as well or better than Getz. I'd even do that now, and give Fields another chance at 3B. But that's me. It's apparent it isn't going to happen.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 28, 2009 -> 11:31 PM) And what do you suppose we will be giving up to get him? I would guess it would take something like Fields, Poreda, and Jordan Danks.... For a end-of-season rental to a team that is out of the running, that's a ridiculous price to suggest to get Matt Holiday. On the other hand, the Sox just don't make this kind of trade. The only guys they have traded for have been players they intend to keep. I'm sure they expected to keep Swisher, for example, but they just weren't happy with him. So, I disagree with both the idea of trading for Holiday, and the price. The other factor about Holiday? He's shown a considerable post-Colorado-move-to-the-AL drop off in his stats. His current OPS is .805, down from .947 last year in Colorado. I don't think there's any chance we're going after Matt Holiday. I think what Kenny has been waiting for is the prognosis on Carlos Quentin. Recent reports suggest he may return, if not before the All-Star break then right after. I think KW expects the addition of Quentin, plus steadily increasing production out of Beckham and the warm-weather emergence of Ramirez will give the Sox enough offense to compete in the second half. Beyond that, what will we be trying to buy? I'm not sure it will be much. Our bullpen is solid. The starting staff is good enough. If Contreras struggles, they may move Poreda into the rotation. They key to us competing is improving our offense. But what can you do? I was all for getting Nate McLouth, and still think it would have been a good deal. But there aren't many guys like that available. And I just don't see the Sox making many infield moves from outside the organization. They want to give the young guys a chance to improve. I also don't see us as sellers unless someone makes us an offer we can't refuse. Dotel, who is often mentioned as out of here, has been quite valuable in our pen. Take him out and we're an inning thinner out there. With Dotel, Linebrink, Thornton, and Jenks, plus Carrasco and now Poreda (if they'd use him), we're very deep. But if you take out Dotel then it's not so easy to cover the 7th-9th. There's no way we're trading Jermaine Dye or Jim Thome. I expect both will be back next season if they are willing to sign for less than they are making now. Dye is our best hitter. We've got no one who can replace his bat in the minor leagues. The guy is #1 in HR for outfielders over the last several years. Best in baseball. Where are we going to replace that? I expect another 2-year deal in the offseason. Thome? He's going to keep going until he gets past 600 HRs I think, and I'm sure he'd love to do it for the Sox. People talk about these minor league players we have as if they can replace Thome. Are you kidding? Look at Getz, Fields, Beckham, Anderson. Can any of these guys hit? Only one of them may ever be a major league hitter, and he's certainly not up to the produciton of Jim Thome, and probably never will. It's going to take him a while. If you dump Thome and Dye, the Sox offense would be zilch. The one guy who could be replaced is Konerko, but he has no-trade protection, so he's likely to stay through his contract. I think KW would like to deal to help the club, but I don't expect him to do much, and certainly not until the prognosis on Quentin is clearer.

It was another horrible move by Ozzie against the Cubs. Marmol was shaky at best, and it would have been a nice way for Castro to contribute something to the team. As it is, he's probably wondering why the heck we traded for him, since he hasn't played at all. So far, I consider Ozzie to have lost both Cubs games with bad managing moves. We should be 4-0 against them.

Just want to VENT. Ozzie couldn't have picked a WORSE pitcher to put in the game in the 8th inning. I would have selected Jimmy Gobble over Linebrink. This loss was on OZZIE. The team is not good enough to be able to blow games like this. These are SEASON KILLERS. And to the pitiful CUBS, no less. Just totally sucks.

The Sox need offense more than they need pitching. Frankly, I would try to make a move for a key bat down the stretch, whether or not Quentin can return. The guy who would have been perfect was Nate McLouth. That's what the Sox need to be competitive. For next year, I wouldn't be surprised to see Thome back on a 1-year somewhat-discounted deal. I imagine Jim wants to keep trying to get to 600 HRs (or as much up the list as he can), and the Sox have no lefty power bat anywhere near ready in their system. If they don't sign Thome, they'll have to go after someone else who can hit the ball out. (E.g., NOT the Angels RF.) I also wouldn't be surprised to see the Sox try to convert Dye's option into a new 2-year deal with the option out in year 3. Dye is still the Sox best hitter (when Quentin's down), and again, we have no one in our system who can replace his power any time soon. If the Sox had an offense that could even hit in the middle of the AL pack, we'd be in first place. It's hard to see us getting that much better at starting pitching, especially if Contreras can even come close to keeping on his hot streak.

For all the guys posting that you want a "firesale," who do you expect to put out there in place of the guys you are dumping? Or do you just want to see the Sox drop to last place and stay there for a couple of years while we "rebuild"? Jermaine Dye. I don't want him moved. I'd want to extend his contract for another 2 years instead of the 1 year option we have now. The guy is still the most consistent hitter on the team, and the only one who has fully kept his HR stroke. (Thome and Konerko are dropping off. And Quentin is also in a bit of a funk, though I expect him to rebound.) I think Dye will not hold down RF if we got a legitimate replacement, instead moving to DH, but his bat is still valuable for a team that can't hit. We have absolutely no one on our team or in our system right now who can replace Jermaine Dye in RF this year or next year. And you can't expect some team to send us a younger version of Dye in trade. You get prospects. Maybe players. Who will take 2 or more years until they can even come close to replacing Dye's production. Jenks. Why would you want to move Big Bobby? The guy is still extremely solid as a closer. Plus, he's tied to us for a few more years before he can be a free agent. If you take Bobby out of the back end and put Thornton there, then who's covering Thornton's job? Instead of 4 really solid relievers -- Dotel, Linebrink, Thornton, Jenks -- you start thinning out and then you get overworked guys who aren't as sharp. Jenks is not costing us much. Why move him? Dotel. I could see trading Dotel because he is probably going to be gone next year by someone who will outbid us for him. I could also see offering him arbitration and taking the draft picks. I could also see extending his deal for another 2 years. He doesn't look like he's losing his fastball, and he's a reliable part of an excellent bullpen. Don't underestimate his value to keeping this pen together. Linebrink. He's signed for a bargain price. I can't see moving him. Thome. Frankly, unless the Sox make some moves for young sluggers, I'm not sure Jimmy is going to be gone next year either. I know he's going to want to keep hitting HRs. And I know he likes the Sox. Plus, we have no lefty power other than him. If we had a Nate McLouth, who could take Dye's place in RF and provide lefty power, you could move Dye to DH and let Jimmy go. But we didn't make that trade. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sox keep Thome for another year. He's the second most productive hitter on the team. I'd be happy to move on if we had some better alternative, but no rookie is going to fill his shoes, and I'm not eager to weaken our hitting even more. Konerko. I would move Paulie if we had an offer, but I expect with his no-trade status we're just going to keep him through next year when his contract is up. ************* The guys who need to be moved are the younger players who aren't really major league caliber. Wise, of course. But also Getz and probably Fields. Anderson has value as a LIDP, and always will. Fix those slots before you start talking about "firesale."

If the Sox do not keep the opposing team under 5 runs -- and almost always under 4 -- they lose. In only one game, a 10-6 win at Detroit April 13th, has that not proven out. These are the runs the Sox have given up in their wins: 2, 0, 1, 6, 2, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1, 3, 3, 0, 2, 4, 2, 4, 0, 0, 3, 2, 2, 3, 4, 2, 2. That's up through tonights game, which we are leading 6-0. What's the point? Just another way of noting that the offense is terrible. It has helped win only 1 game so far this year, the 10-6 game at Detroit. There are only 3 other games when we've given up 4 runs and won.

I would have demoted Getz when Beckham came up to make it clearer what roles each guy has. Fields at 3B, Beckham at 2B, Nix as backup. I would have done that because I think there's an outside chance for Fields, whereas I just can't fathom Chris Getz being anything other than deadweight on the offense. But with Fields whining, I'd say he's likely gone first. The Sox won't be better for it, but I can see why they would do it. Really, though, at this point I'd just as soon dump Getz too and bring up Viciedo to play 3B. Then we need to do something about CF. I guess Pods will hold it down when Quentin returns, and Wise will be dumped. The sooner we see Wise, Getz, and Fields out of there, the better. We won't likely start winning, but we'll at least see most of the future infield of the White Sox.

QUOTE (103 mph screwball @ Jun 8, 2009 -> 08:51 PM) Too early to give up. This team could win the next 15 out of 20. There may need to be a few shake ups to somehow hit the reset button on this team. I'm still in despite the recent poor play. You are dreaming. It would be one thing if the guys who know how to hit were just cold. The problem is that the Sox are loaded with players who can't hit, and may never hit. Wise, Getz, Anderson, Fields, etc. When only three guys on the team are hitting above league average at their positions, you aren't going to see much more offense unless Kenny trades for some proven hitters.

QUOTE (DBAHO @ Jun 8, 2009 -> 10:19 AM) The Sox are 45 runs below the AL average for runs scored, so that's obviously your major problem here. They have a negative Win Probability of -3.48 for their offense, 0.02 for their starters and 1.46 for the pen, a total of -2 altogether. And mainly it's because of a lack of power. Overall the offense has an OPS of .706 which is just abysmal. So when the weather warms up, and the bats get hot, this team will do better. But it's mainly down to 4 guys. Fields, Getz, Anderson/Wise and Ramirez. They all have OPS's below .650, and this team is just not going to be a good team if 4 of your players in your lineup who play half their games in an offensive ballpark are below par offensive players. Ramirez will get above .700 I've got no doubt about. Beckham should if he plays everyday, but b/w Getz, Anderson/Wise and Fields, I'm not so sure about at all. EDIT: And Orlando Hudson a guy who I really wanetd in the off-season has splits of .315/.396/.444 right now for an OPS of .840. He'd look real good in our lineup right now that's for sure. Either 2B or CF MUST be upgraded in the off-season without a doubt. I think your post is about the only one that sees it nearly the same way as I do. My quibble is that I would play Beckham at 2B because Fields might come around at 3B, and if he doesn't, we could rush Viciedo. For CF, see my post on why we should have traded for Nate McLouth. I wouldn't wait for the offseason, though. A couple astute trades right now, plus the return of Quentin and having Ramirez heat up, could actually put us back in the thick of this race. As bad as we've been, we're still in range.

I posted a thread as to why we are so bad. We have no power on this team. We're on pace for 162 HRs. The only time this decade we were below 200 HRs, it was our only losing season, when we tallied 90 losses. http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72061 We only have 3 players hitting above league average at their positions -- Jermaine Dye, Jim Thome, and AJ Pierzynski. Quentin is hitting at league average. Everyone else is below, usually WAY BELOW. It has nothing to do with pulling the ball, or not being very good at situational hitting. It has to do with the fact that we are trotting out guys at several positions who are not full-time major league players. And then you add in that Alexei Ramirez has mostly stunk it up too, and you have 5-6 gaping holes in a 9-man lineup. Plus, the 3 guys who are above league average are not hitting all that great. They can't begin to make up for the outs in the rest of the lineup. What's the solution? Kenny needs to trade for some new offense, or we aren't going to be competitive for a few years. Because if you are counting on the guys in AAA now, even if you brought them up today, it wouldn't be until 2011 that you could have any confidence as to how they might hit. I like Beckham and think he can be a fairly quick solution at one position, but that still leaves at least 3-4 holes to fill.

QUOTE (Kenny Hates Prospects @ Jun 7, 2009 -> 12:43 PM) No reason to write off Getz. I don't ever think he'll be an All-Star but he can definitely help a Major League team by playing a good 2B and hitting for a high average and drawing a few walks. He doesn't K much and has speed, so he can fill a role. When guys like Jose Lopez are starters you know a guy like Chris Getz can make it somewhere. Don't wait for BA then, go ahead and hate with runs created as your reasoning. What is all this about comparing CFers? He's not a true CF, he's a corner guy, and his power isn't all that great. He's an overrated player IMO. I've said this before, but I think he could easily be the next Eric Byrnes. If he was a much better player I'm sure Pittsburgh would have asked a lot more for him. Atlanta gave up 3 good prospects in a fair deal, and he wasn't worth a superstar. LOL about saying McLouth is probably better than Jordan will ever be. What makes you think that? Because Danks strikes out? Danks already fits in CF better than McLouth does. McLouth has to exceed league average in a corner to be viewed as a very good player, and Danks only has to do the same in CF. McLouth has higher offensive standards to reach because of his poor D in CF. Danks may not amount to anything, but it's dumb to say it's doubtful he'll be any good at this point in his career. McLouth would be another Swisher deal IMO. We're acquiring a non-CF to put in CF and hoping he can fit in a corner long-term. He is not a CF of the future type of talent. If a real CF of the future type of MLB-ready talent became available, then I would think very hard about the deal. We'd have had to give up prospects with higher ceilings than McLouth since we don't have the overall depth the Braves have/had, and I'm pretty much always against those types of deals. As far as CF goes, I'm sure KW could go out and get Randy Winn for next to nothing if he wanted to take on the full contract. There are other options out there that don't involve selling big pieces off the farm. I just think this is very poor baseball logic on multiple fronts. Chris Getz. "Hit for a high average and draw a few walks." The "high average" is an assumption that may never be proven out, but even it it eventually proved true, he's not going to get you enough power or on base percentage to make him a positive run producer. So far Getz has a runs created per game number of 3.84. To win the division, the Sox need to score 5 runs per game, which is exactly what they did last year. So, by playing Getz, you have to make up the offense somewhere else. Why do that when we have just called up Gordon Beckham, who is certainly going to exceed 5 runs per game when he gets acclimated, and who is going to play a better defensive 2B to boot. Getz is just a below average player who is going to be barely passable on any team he plays for. If you had no one else to play 2B, he can be trotted out there and will give you his best along with some decent fielding. But he's not making the team better. He's a negative. McLouth. He's certainly as good or better as a CF as everyone the Sox have put out there, except Brian Anderson, since we let Aaron Rowand go. We won the division last year with Nick Swisher in CF a ton of the time. McLouth has way more speed than Swisher, so he has to be better. McLouth is not a superstar, but he's an above-average player who would be a huge plus for the team. His 6.5 RC number is 3 runs/game better than Brian Anderson. And if you want late inning defense, you could still put Anderson out there. As I pointed out, McLouth's offense is even good enough to play him as a corner outfielder. He generates more runs per game than Jermaine Dye right now, and did last year too. Among right fielders, McLouth would still be in the top 10 in offense, around JD Drew. In other words, more than passable on a winning team. McLouth is better than Swisher in every way. But you know what? We'd be better with Nick Swisher still on this club. We dumped him because Ozzie didn't like him, apparently. He'd certainly be a better offensive option than Brian Anderson or DeWayne Wise in CF. Randy Winn would too. But Winn is 34, while McLouth is 27. If the Sox want to get better, trading for a young lefty power hitting speedy guy who can play CF or RF, not cost that much in prospects, and who is signed at a reasonable price for 3 more years, would be a very good move. The White Sox RC27 number, as a team, is down nearly a run per game this year, from 5.01 to 4.17. WE CAN'T WIN scoring at that rate. So, if you like losing, by all means keep defending non-hitters like Chris Getz. ****************** Let me add one more point. If the Sox keep scoring at this anemic rate, it's going to take a toll on our young pitchers, who are going to lose plenty of games where they pitch well. That's not a good way to build up their confidence. McLouth is gone, unfortunately. If we don't make a move or two like that very soon, so will the 2009 season.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Jun 7, 2009 -> 08:25 AM) Are you saying that Getz can't be a starter for the Sox because the Cell's a home run hitter's park, yet would be OK in a pitcher's park? IMO, Getz' approach to offense [making contact, hitting for avg, posting a decent OBP, working counts, smart baserunning] helps the sox lineup that is still heavily reliant on the long ball. He's a guy who can score from 2b on a single, or from 1st on a double. The sox have had too many years of innings with needing 3 hits to score a run. The sox have hit a lot of solo HR's in recent years. Having guys on base [which is what Getz has done in his minor league career-both in avg. and OBP], regardless of where the team plays, helps team's score runs. In an ideal world, the sox lineup would feature 9 guys who all have speed, power, patience and can hit .280-.300. Few guys in the league have that total package who can do that, let alone have a lineup full of them. The sox need a blend of power guys and guys who can compliment that power, esp. playing 82 games in the Cell. Getz compliments the current team quite well. I'm a firm believer in the RC27 way of rating a player's offensive value. It is more refined than OPS because it includes the value of speed. Getz's RC27 is 3.84. That ranks him at the very bottom rung of major league 2Bs. I see no prospect of Getz's numbers getting much better because he has no power -- not even much hope of hitting a lot of doubles or triples -- and therefore little hope of ever developing a high OBP because pitchers will not fear him. He doesn't even seem to use the whole field when he hits. The hits I've seen him get are all pulled into RF. That suggests his BA will also never get much better. Gordon Beckham is vastly better in just about every way to Getz. And Jayson Nix is vastly better as a utility guy because he can play far more positions than Getz. So I just see no room for him. As for light hitting guys with speed, I'm just not enamored that much of them. They have low RC27 totals for the most part, which means that even with their speed they are not increasing the runs scored per game, they are dragging it down. But in the Cell, the Sox certainly cannot afford multiple light hitters. If we're going to keep one, I'll go with Scott Podsednik, who's at 4.38 runs per game, which is better than any CF we have.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 7, 2009 -> 11:04 AM) Getz in the Iguchi role (if we had the Pods of 2005, first half) would be more valuable than what he is to this team. We have to give him more time...and he's had a lot of little, nagging injury problems that have kept him from getting on a consistent streak of hitting. As long as he's hitting line drives (DJ had a stat that 56% of line drives end up as hits or something like that) and not uppercutting, he SHOULD be fine. The problem is who do you sit: Getz, Ramirez or Fields? Getz is no Iguchi, and never will be. Tadahito could hit the long ball. Remember the 3-run HR he hit against David Wells to win game 2 of the ALDS against Boston in 2005? Iguchi's RC27 number was 5.01 in 2005. Getz is never going to get much above the low 4s because he has no power and isn't going to hit well enough in our park to be anything but a drag on our offense. Plus, for the guys who think he can play multiple posiitons, what are you smoking? If Getz could play SS reliably, and 3B, he might have a role as a utility player. Instead, he's merely a 2B.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Jun 6, 2009 -> 10:34 PM) Getz is a keeper. He'll be a solid pro, an everyday player. He's part of the solution of improving the sox offense--hitting for avg, making contact, getting on base, speed and smarts on the bases. Josh Fields is likely a trade chip. When you're a major league player and have trouble hitting a 90 mph FB, something's wrong. Nix is a bench guy. Nothing more. For 2009, we'll see Beckham mostly at 3b. Fields will back him up. Getz should see most of the time at 2B. If Gordon can hit and field at 3b, Fields should be gone this year. This is just total BS. Getz's runs created number is 3.84. How is it ever going to get much better than that? He has NO power, and no hope of every gaining any. Teams don't fear his bat, so who's going to walk him? He's looking at an OPS that might top out .700, and an RC27 number that might top out in the low 4s. In other words, he's David Eckstein at best. And Eckstein is currently ranked 18th among 2B in the Majors at 4.01 RC per game. Of course, Getz is not even Eckstein because he can't play SS. And he's probably not even the best fielder the Sox could put at 2B. Ramirez, Beckham, and Nix may all be better. So, I'll give up the point made about how Getz made it onto the team to start the season -- didn't want to rush Beckham, Nix was hurt -- but neither of those reasons are true any more. Nix is playing and Beckham is up. That means Getz should go. Fields? His RC27 number is even worse than Getz's at the moment. But in 2007 it was 4.72. That's why the Sox should let Fields work out his swing until he fixes it or Viciedo is ready. Send Getz down or trade him.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Jun 6, 2009 -> 10:53 PM) 1st-The package ATL gave the Pirates was decent. The prospects were solid overall 2nd-This team needs help in a few positions. But it's still too early to write off Getz, Beckham and Anderson. All three [OK, maybe not BA] should be able to best McLouth's current avg. and OBP. Yet Quentin is still the key to this team. If he's not healthy, I don't see the sox winning the AL Central let alone going far in the playoffs. This team has to have Carlos hitting or they aren't going anywhere. 3rd-5th points: If McLouth was a key guy to build around, then the sox should have traded for him. IMO, and Kenny Williams', he wasn't. In yours, he probably was. Bottom line, he's a Brave. The sox will make moves. And not going after McLouth was a move and a statement. I'm not writing off Beckham. Where the heck did you get that from? I have consistently said Beckham is part of the solution, not the problem. But it is certainly time to write off Getz, who will never even come within range of being a league average second baseman. He's always going to be a below average guy because he has NO power and no hope of ever developing power. Teams won't be scared enough of him to walk him, so even if he hit .300 he'd still struggle mightily to post a .700 OPS. Right now he's in the low .600s. His runs created per game are in the 3s, which means he's dragging down the offense big time. Brian Anderson is no better, though you see that big body and you think if he were given enough playing time at this point he might start to hit, and to hit with a little power. I'm tired of waiting for it, however. Right now he's also posting a runs created per game total in the low 3s, so he's another drag on the offense. His value is as a reserve outfielder LIDP given his exceptional defense. As for McLouth, for those who continue to knock his offense, please reconsider or continue to look foolish. If you look at his runs created number, which will include the value of his speed, he's creating 6.27 runs per game. That's BETTER than the best two numbers posted by current Sox players -- Jermaine Dye is at 6.07 and Jim Thome is at 6.03. Konerko's at 5.82. I'm not saying McLouth is a better hitter than a healthy Carlos Quentin, but I would say he's as good an offensive player as any other player the Sox currently have. Last year, McLouth posted a 6.67 RC27 number. Dye was at 6.30, Thome at 6.10. Only Quentin, at 7.67, was better. (If you look at Major League CFs by RC27, McLouth ranks in the top-10, in the same zone as Curtis Granderson, Matt Kemp, and Aaron Rowand. He's behind Beltran, Adam Jones, Torii Hunter, and Mike Cameron.) So, as I look at those numbers, I'm even more adamant that the Sox missed the boat here. McLouth is not only capable of fixing CF until Jordan Danks is ready, he's probably a better hitter than Jordan Danks will ever be. Indeed, if the Pirates wanted a CF back in trade, I would have given them Jordan Danks plus two pitchers not named Poreda in the deal if that's what it took. I wouldn't want to unload Danks because we need two outfielders soon enough given Dye's advancing age, and because I'm assuming Danks is a better fielder in CF, but I would have. I also never said what the Pirates got was worthless. What I said is that they got prospects who aren't going to be ready for the majors for a couple of years, which means they may never be ready for the majors. Ratings in that respect are just ratings. Projections. A lot has to happen for those guys to pan out. In the meantime, the Sox would have acquired a 27 year old CF/RF who is signed for 3 years at a very reasonable rate who is hitting better than any player the Sox currently have. He would have filled a gaping hole on the team and given us a much better chance to win this year and next year. Plus, at the end of those two years, he would likely have more value than he has now.

QUOTE (South Side Fireworks Man @ Jun 6, 2009 -> 09:22 PM) Another problem is Fields is a sub-par defender at third. He may have some power, but I don't think he'll ever be a "good" hitter, at least not good enough to compensate for his poor defense. I say trade both Fields and Getz along with a prospect and get a quality major league third baseman. Move Beckham to second base. And of course, cut Wise ASAP. I'm not against this position once we can cover both 2B and 3B with better players than Getz and Fields. I just can't understand why you would not get rid of Getz first. Beckham, as a SS, has to be as good defensively at 2B as Getz is (or would be with a little work over there). And Fields has been passable defensively at 3B. Another way to look at this is that if Josh Fields could repeat his 2007 performance and Beckham hit as well as we expect he can even as a rookie, the Sox might have a chance this year. If you flipped it and put Beckham at 3B and projected the very best that Getz could possibly achieve this year, the Sox offense would still have a huge hole at 2B, well below league average at the position.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jun 6, 2009 -> 09:16 PM) Chris Getz also had 11 home runs last year in Charlotte. Admittedly it was in a small stadium, but it's not like the Cell is Petco, even if we're playing like it is. And Viciedo is at least 1 year away. Calling him up would be flat out foolish. OOOH! How exciting! You mean to say his slugging percentage might some day beat his on base percentage? Maybe Getz could hit a couple mistakes out. But if he ever swung for the fences, his batting average would suffer big time, more than cancelling out any gain in slugging.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 6, 2009 -> 09:08 PM) Soxtalk would have melted down if we traded that package for him. But that isn't close to a comparable package. It's WAY more than Atlanta gave up. They didn't surrender any lefties who can throw 98 mph. A comparable package, in my mind, would be what we got from the Yankees for Nick Swisher. Or maybe slightly more now that people realize Betemit isn't worth much.

This is an easy one for me, but I'm sorry to say, it doesn't appear to be an easy one for the White Sox. Josh Fields, despite whatever hitch he has in his swing, has a vastly greater upside than Chris Getz. In addition, despite hitting what most would consider horribly so far, he's still hitting better than Chris Getz. Here is Josh Fields career line: .238 .302 .417 .719 -- that's over 161 games and 581 ABs Here is Josh Fields 2009 line: .244 .306 .344 .651 He's 26. His biggest downside is 197 K's. He has 25 HRs in his career. Here is Chris Getz's career line: .247 .309 .301 .610 -- 39 games, 142 ABs Here is Chris Getz's 2009 line: .254 .316 .310 .626 He's 25. His biggest downside is ZERO power. He has 6 career steals and been caught twice. I think going into the season, the Sox must have felt that Josh Fields could post at least his career numbers, if not improve on them. I'm not sure why they should think otherwise if they just let him play. There's at least hope there. And if he shows no improvement over the next month or two, the Sox can bring up Viciedo. But Getz is what you see on the field right now. He's got no power so there is no reason for pitchers to walk him. If he reached his maximum potential, he'd probably top out at a .700 OPS, and he'd have to hit nearly .300 to get there, with a .350 OBP. And between now and then, if he ever did reach that point (which I doubt), we'd have to suffer through pathetic numbers that are way below league average. I just don't get what people see in that kind of ballplayer. Maybe if he played on turf and could slap the ball through the infield, he'd be a passable player. On grass, in the homer-friendly Cell, he's a disaster. (Moreover, he can't play SS, so he's effectively useless as a utility player.) Give me Josh Fields and his strike outs every day over that. I can at least hope that Fields will fix the hitch in his swing and return to the 20-homer power he displayed two years ago. Getz doesn't have any such excuse to fall back on. PS -- while we're at it, please cut DeWayne Wise. He is barely hitting above the league average for NL pitchers! He has to be the worst player in Major League Baseball.

QUOTE (beck72 @ Jun 6, 2009 -> 08:07 PM) Neal Huntington has only been GM for 2 years. He's no more to blame for the Pirates poor track record of recent years than you. He was with Clev. since 1998. He seems to be doing a decent job, getting prospects and building around pitching. The Nady deal landed them Tabata. I like Morton and Hernandez in the McLout deal My biggest question is why couldn't the Pirates move McLouth to a corner OF spot, if he was the offensive savior the sox needed? The sox have enough guys who can hit in the .250's and post a .330 OBP. McLouth has an OBP in the .350s the last two years, along with slugging at .450+. That's what you should look at, not his career numbers that include when he first came up. At 27, anything he's shown so far is likely to be closer to a floor than a ceiling. I wouldn't look for him to decline until he's in his 30s. (NOTE: I repeat what I said earlier. Those numbers are better than ANY White Sox CF since Chet Lemon played in the late 1970s for us.) As for the Sox, they need players above league average at more than 3 spots in the lineup to have any chance. I never said McLouth was an offensive savior. What I said was that he was a huge upgrade at a position of need -- CF. He's young, cheap, has enough of a bat to move to RF if we need him to, plus he's got lefty power on a team that will have NONE as soon as Jim Thome moves on. Not to mention enough speed and on base savvy to hit at the top of the lineup if we wanted to put him there. He's not Carlos Quentin. But he's well above league average in CF and good enough to hold his own in a corner OF spot. But what should have been the real key for the SOX and Kenny Williams was two more things: 1) he was available -- name me another comparable player in MLB who is available in a no-cost trade, and 2) he was acquired for Atlanta's 4th and 7th best prospects, plus a throw in. In other words, for three players who aren't going to be in the majors this year or probably next and may never make any impact at all! To my mind that is giving up the kind of players we used to get Freddie Garcia years ago, or the Joe Borchard for Matt Thornton deal, or the like. It's a steal. McLouth could have been a nice piece of filling in the puzzle for the White Sox. Give me three guys like that who can play CF, 2B, and 3B (Beckham may be one), and the Sox might have an offense again.