VAfan

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 8, 2008 -> 12:59 AM) I remember it as 1993. Plus, McDowell was tipping his pitches and Toronto knew it. Okay, I'll assume you are correct. My memory of the exact year was a bit fuzzy.

Yes, yes, this is all premature, but it's a pretty fair debate. Again, there's no consensus yet. Also, not too many folks seem to be worried about the pressure of it being the first playoff game for Danks and Floyd. DANKS -- best ERA, most consistent quality starts, can shut teams down for 6+ innings. FLOYD -- has wicked curve, power game, has flirted with no hitters, and appears to be the strongest young guy. CONTRERAS -- has been "the Man," when his fastball is strong his splitter is nasty, won't be intimidated by any opponent, World Series experience. BUEHRLE -- long term consistency, can shut down an impatient team, best at controlling running games and fielding, World Series experience. VAZQUEZ -- best strikeout pitcher, has biggest pitching reportoire. I agree that the opponent, and whether we start at home or on the road should be factors. But since we can't know that right now, I'd lean toward: 1. Floyd or Contreras 2. Danks 3. Floyd or Contreras 4. Buehrle 5. Bullpen -- Javy. I'd lead with the power pitchers and split the lefties. Danks is outpitching Buehrle. If Jose comes on strong again, he'd get the nod over Floyd. If he's off a little, I wouldn't hesitate to go with Floyd. If he's off a lot, I'd go with Javy 3rd. I put Javy in the bullpen because he's the best strikeout pitcher on the team now that Jenks seems to have lost something. Indeed, if Jenks were shaky, I'd use Javy to close. For one inning he doesn't need to pace himself. Plus, Contreras in the pen is a bad choice becasuse he's the worst at controlling a running game. Of course, I'm pretty confident this isn't how Ozzie is going to see it. I'm guessing the three vets will go 1-2-3 in some order, with either Danks or Floyd the bullpen guy. That could be a huge mistake. Remember 1995? Jack McDowell couldn't beat Toronto to save himself, but Wilson Alvarez bested them easily. Should have gone with the young guy then.

Good responses. And, like I expected, no clear consensus yet. Maybe a clearer picture will emerge in the second half. As I mentioned at the outset, before the ASB in 2005, no one would have put Contreras first. One thing I will say is that for me, MB should NOT be first. I see him as a very good supportive pitcher, but not good enough to be the ACE. Given his experience, he'd probably rank #2. But if I put Danks #1, then I'd slide Buehrle to #3. So, I'm still pondering. Keep up the replies.

In 2005, once Jose Contreras emerged as the horse of our rotation in the second half, the playoff rotation became obvious. Contreras first, Buehrle second, Garcia (the road warrior) lined up to pitch all road games, and then Garland. We had no reliable 5th starter, so Hernandez moved to the pen. McCarthy didn't even make the playoff roster. In 2008, what would you do? Right now, the starters who are the most consistent also have zero playoff games under their belts. We also have no obvious choice for a starter to move to the bullpen. Frankly, I can't decide at the moment what I would do, so I'm putting this out for your opinions first. I know it's premature, but take a shot anyway. Rank em 1-4, and decide who moves to the pen.

I expect he'll learn to walk as much as a player like Carlos Lee, which should push his OBP north of .350 given he's likely to flirt with or exceed .300 in average. I just wonder if or when Ozzie is going to move him up in the lineup this season. Not for a while, I expect. Still, when he's up there, I almost feel more confident that he'll get a hit than I do about anyone else in our lineup.

Linebrink looked shaky again in the closer's role. So I would agree that Thornton or Dotel may be the better choices, with Logan taking Thornton's set up duties, and perhaps Russell subbing for Dotel in set up. But let's hope Bobby just needed a few days rest. We won't really know till he's back out there if he's okay.

I don't care if he's another Soriano. He's Alexei Ramirez, which is fine with me. The kid has made tremendous strides in only a couple hundred at bats. Early on, he flailed at breaking balls and made easy outs. Now, he's more selective, and his average has shot up near .300. I expect he'll lead the team before the year is out in that category. A better eye should also allow him to greatly increase his walks and OBP, and when he does that, he's a great candidate to be our lead off hitter. Though to hit lead off, he'll have to be able to run too. I'm guessing he's already our fastest player, but just needs confidence and improved technique, so I think that will come. And if his average is over .300, his OBP is north of .350, and he's more selective, I expect his slugging will go up too as he'll be waiting for and pouncing on the pitches he can drive for doubles and HRs. By next season, this kid is going to be our SS and is likely to hold that spot in All-Star form for years to come. And if we move our top pick Gordon Beckham to 2B, he may be ready in a couple of years to form an incredible up-the-middle tandem that will transform this team. Imagine this team: 3B Josh Fields SS Alexei Ramirez 2B Gordon Beckham 1B Nick Swisher LF Carlos Quentin CF Brian Anderson RF Jermaine Dye DH Paul Konerko C AJ Pierzynski If you could dump Konerko for a lefty outfielder (or 1B, with Swisher moving back to OF) and move Dye to DH, it would be even better. Everyone in that lineup would have double-digit HR power, and no one would be an easy out (I'm assuming Anderson continues to improve). And if you got rid of Konerko, you wouldn't have any true snails on the basepaths (okay, AJ's probably a snail). We'd be younger, cheaper, and better. And since 4 of our 5 starters are locked in for the next several years, we only need to replace Contreras in the rotation. It looks like the Sox ought to be able to compete very well over the next several years.

I still believe there is a need for a right handed bat who can hit lefties well. We still struggle against lefties. Tonight, Cliff Lee shut us down. Thome traditonally hits lefties much worse than he does righties. This year, he's hitting them better. But don't expect it to hold. Joe Crede can't hit lefties to save himself this season. So, that spells Josh Fields in my book. But when he's ready. I know he's had some injury issues. When he's healthy, I'd ship out Ozuna and bring up Fields. He'd spell Crede against most lefties, and hit for Thome some too. Not a big deal, but it could help win a couple ball games. I'd also keep an eye on Freddy Garcia's comeback. But there's another thread on that.

I brought this topic up about a month ago, and got ripped. About the same reaction now. I'm sure we'll check him out. It would be just foolish not to. But beyond that it's all speculation. None of us has any idea if he's got anything at this point. And, if he's not throwing until the end of July, what kind of time does that allow for him to get ready? He'd certainly need some AAA time. So, check him out and go from there. We'll know more where we stand. We'll know if we have to bid to keep him away from the Tigers. We'll know a lot more than we know now.

I'd dump Ozuna. He doesn't hit better than anyone he subs for, he's a minus fielder at every position he subs for, and he's not fast enough to steal a base as a pinch runner any more. At least Uribe is a plus-plus fielder at both 2B and SS. That's not much, but it's something.

I thought the 5 points in the original article were fairly solid. You could add to them the fact that we're due for more home games than road games, which undervalues our current record. But we're certainly no shoe-in here. I don't think the Twins will up and steal it. They're playing well in interleague play, but when they return to the AL, I expect them to fall back. Liriano could help, but we just pounded the hell out of the rest of their staff when they were here. And, even though the rest of our games against them are in Minnesota, after we crushed them, I expect no worse than a split. The team to be concerned about is the Tigers. We're going to have to get to at least 90 wins to hold them off, I think.

QUOTE (Brian @ Jun 17, 2008 -> 07:35 PM) Is Wise this seasons Andy Gonzalez? I don't know, but after looking at Wise's career stats, if this is the best buy the White Sox can bring up, we must have the weakest minor league system in baseball, by a MILE. I mean, seriously, look at our bench. And to think, one of these guys, other than Hall, has to play every day. That's just rancid. Batting Statistics NAME GP AB R H 2B 3B HR TB RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS Toby Hall 17 53 3 17 3 0 0 20 2 2 3 0 0 .321 .357 .377 .735 Pablo Ozuna 25 51 2 14 1 0 0 15 5 1 3 0 0 .275 .288 .294 .583 B. Anderson 44 92 8 23 7 0 2 36 10 5 21 2 1 .250 .289 .391 .680 Juan Uribe 42 125 14 25 6 0 3 40 17 9 22 0 0 .200 .259 .320 .579 Dewayne Wise 6 6 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 .000 .000 .000 .000

Northside, glad to have you watching. You can see from the early part of this that I thought a few guys crossed the line. Now they seem to be falling over themselves to say they didn't. Whatever. What really clinched it for me was reading their statements on other threads about the need to bring someone up, when this thread got started first and you would think from reading the comments that it was a crazy idea! ************** Anyway, back to the topic. Fields on the DL? Too bad. Still would have been the best choice in my mind. Not necessarily for Konerko's replacement, but to get rid of Ozuna and bring in a right hander who can rest Crede and sub for Jim Thome. That's still sitting there as a need. But I also agree with the poster above who says this is a transitional year and the Sox aren't going to fix their offensive woes with a single substitute. I'm just hoping for enough marginal improvement to win 4-5 more games this year, which might be the difference between making the postseason and sitting it out again. With our pitching, we've probably already lost 4-5 games or more this year that a hit or two would have won.

For the umpteenth time, I don't have it in for Fields per se. Name someone better, and I'll be happy that they bring him up. I just don't see anyone down in AAA that has proven to hit major league pitching. Field's OPS last year was just short of .800. He hit more than 20 HRs. His average, while not great, was decent. And his splits against lefties were good. Better than Joe Crede this year and Jim Thome historically. As for Ozuna, you really aren't kidding? The guy adds absolutely nothing to this club. He can't hit, so he weakens the team every time you give someone a day off. He's not better defensively than any player he subs for. And he's not even fast enough to steal a base as a pinch runner. At least Uribe is a plus defender at SS and 2B, and he has some pop in his bat on the rare occasions he hits the ball. Ozuna is a zero in my mind. A complete waste of a roster space. Two weeks ago, Ozzie was fed up and called for changes. I don't think it was just a ruse. I think he meant it, but Kenny Williams wasn't willing to comply. Now, with Konerko hurt in another spot, they'll have to make a move. I think it could actually help us, because while Konerko was trying, he has really been an anchor in the middle of the lineup. An occasional hit here and there, but not good enough for the #4 hitter.

After tonight's game, do y'all still want to defend our offense? We made a starter with an ERA north of 8 runs a game look like Cy Young. How many guys struck out on the same pitch, all of which were out of the strike zone? Now, I think the guy pitched a good game. But we needed to lay off his slider until he brought it up, because most of the time it was a ball. As for Ozuna, you guys must be kidding. His OPS is below .600. Anything south of .600 is just worthless offensively. As for the middle infield, Uribe can cover it defensively. If both Cabrera and Ramirez get hurt, then we're screwed anyway. Pablo Ozuna isn't going to save us. We have middle infielders in AAA to call up in an emergency. I'd take the chance that they would produce over the certainty that Osuna won't produce. And we don't need LEFT HANDERS. We need another right handed bat. Did you see what a bad lefty did to us tonight? He killed us. Joe Crede absolutely can't hit lefties this year. And plenty of other guys appear to suck at it too. Again, I'll take Fields because he's the only guy in our system that has proven he can hit major league pitching. If we had someone else, fine. Name him and I'll be happy to bring him up instead. But none of you can sit there and tell me our offense is fine. It's not. The Tigers are awake. They've won 5 in a row. They're coming. Another tailspin like we had earlier and we won't be in first place at the All Star break, much less September. Now, I think we can pull out of this funk, but I think it's going to take the shake up that Ozzie called for, and not just the tirade, but the actual movement of ballplayers. We're playing with a 23-man roster. We need 25 guys all pulling their weight if we want to be playing in October this year.

I haven't seen a single response on here defend Pablo Ozuna. It seems to me that you have to do so, or come up with some alternative that's better than Josh Fields as his replacement. There is a place for Josh Fields in this lineup 3-4 games a week, or as a pinch hitter for interleague road games. He'd offer something that Pablo Ozuna cannot: better hitting, much better power, better defense at 3B. And, BTW, you totally misunderstand why I'm calling for Fields. I don't have anything for Josh Fields. I'm just looking at who is in our minor league system and picking out the guy who could fill a need. He's the only one that, over 100 ML games, has proven he can hit major league pitching. He hits lefties. If we had a better option, I'd happily take it. The point remains that Pablo Ozuna is NOT a better option. He's taking up a roster space that could be put to better use. The Sox are playing with 24 guys -- 23 really because Uribe, until tonight, hadn't played in a couple of weeks. We've got to have one of the thinnest benches in baseball. And for what reason? Becasuse we made a mistake and gave Ozuna a contract north of a million bucks? I say eat it or send him down. We have been losing close games where a single hit could make the difference. Trust me, at the end of the year, we'll want to have 3-4 games or more that we could have won with some better hitting.

The worst thing from something like this is that it could wake up a sleeping giant. After this series, I now expect the Tigers, not the Indians or Twins, to become our chief rivals for the division crown. Cabrera hit. Verlander pitched a gem. Rogers killed us, again. Thames hit a 3-run HR. They outpitched and outhit us. We still have a lot of factors giving us an edge. 8-game lead. More home than road games left. Etc. But we'll need to return the favor when they come to our house. In the meantime, the best way to erase this is to kick some NL ass.

From the Trib today: Konerko rests Manager Ozzie Guillen said Paul Konerko needed a break, so he didn't start his first baseman Wednesday night and will have him fulfill the designated-hitter duties in Thursday's series finale at Detroit. "Besides that, the last couple of weeks he has maxed out mentally about hitting and needs to shut it down for a couple days," Guillen said of Konerko, who is 8-for-21 but still is batting only .217. Guillen downplayed the fact that Konerko is 3-for-24 lifetime against Detroit starter Justin Verlander. "I just look at how the player feels," Guillen said. "Right now it starts warming up and it gets hot and humid. You'll see bench players get more playing time." **************** I just want one of those bench players to be Josh Fields instead of Pablo Ozuna. With Fields, instead of a step down, we might even get some stepped up production on those rest days. He certainly hits lefties better than Joe Crede is doing this year, and better than Jim Thome has done over the last three years. Konerko, meanwhile, is still hurt.

What's Pablo Ozuna adding to our team at the moment? Nothing. His OPS is .589. He's not even fast enough any more to be of value as a pinch runner. And he's not a plus defender at any position so he can't even be an LIDR. Josh Fields, on the other hand, would add something to the team. He slugged nearly as well as Paul Konerko did LAST year over 100 games. And he hit much better than Jim Thome has against lefties over the last several years. Plus, Joe Crede goes up and down with his hitting. If you look, he's not hitting lefties AT ALL (.318 OPS). So, aside from resting his back, he should sit some of the time. As for being hot, we were at home. But you could see in last night's game some of the problems we had in Tampa resurfacing. I still believe having a bat of value on the bench that can spell your starters and be used to pinch hit (in addition to Thome) when we go to interleague play soon would be WAY more useful than having Pablo Ozuna around. I would bring Fields up starting with the Colorado series.

Personally, I've never complained about posters criticizing the suggestions I post. Make your best argument, and cut it to shreds. Makes for good debate. What detracts from the site are criticisms of the poster, which have been made of me by several posters -- I've noticed one in particular -- for just about everything I have put up here this year. Who needs that? It's crap, frankly. You won't ever hear that out of me, except to defend myself. I appreciate the fact that several fellow posters have recognized this. **********' Once again to the topic. I agree Garcia is a long shot, and not even a pitcher I necessarily want us to get. But it's not lazy research on my part to believe that we have been lucky so far with Danks and Floyd. The team needs to consider multiple backup options for when (or if) they (or some other starter) needs a break. I'm all for the Loiaza signing for just that reason. But we still don't know if Loiaza will amount to anything, or will be a bust. And forgive me for not getting excited about Lance Broadway and/or Nick Masset as our backup starters. They might help us win enough regular season games to get us to the dance in a year when Cleveland, Detroit, and Minnesota have stumbled, but forgive me for having no confidence in them in a matchup with Boston or Anaheim or the wild card team. We won in 2005 in large part because we had 4 dominant starters. We might have gotten by with 3. But it's better to have 4, esp. in a 7-game series. I know it's waaaaaayyyyy early, but how do our starters match up against the top guys for the Bosox or Angels? We're beating those teams staffs now because we're deeper, and because they've lost top guys to injury. But how will we compare in October?

I love the criticism about starting threads from guys who came to this site a lot later than I did. Please tell me that someone else brought up Freddie's name first? Or just shut up. Man, I never used to get defensive, but I really hate reading that kind of crap on this site. Just respond to the post, or ignore it, please. You won't find me ever criticizing someone on that score. ************ Now, as to the topic. Danks threw 139 innings last year. So far, he's thrown 74 this season. If he pitched every 5th game, that would be about 19 starts between now and the end of the year. At 6+ innings, another 120, by the end of the year. Can he do that without risk? Well, I'll leave that up to Don Cooper to decide. But here were Danks' ERA by month last season: May 4.03 (5 starts), June 4.18 (6 starts), July 6.20 (4 starts), Aug 7.62 (6 starts). This year, based on only 2 June starts, it's May 2.73 (6 starts), June 4.63 (2 starts). Meanwhile, Gavin Floyd, while he's had more years in the majors, is already beyond his record for innings pitched in a season with this year's 78.1. His previous peak was reached last season at 70 IP. Check it out yourself. http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=5922 Now, I have no interest in supplanting either Danks or Floyd as long as they continue to perform as they have this year, and as long as there is no threat to their long-term arm health. But baseball is about having a Plan B in place if something happens to Plan A. And since this is now a season where we need to be prepared for the postseason and not just the regular season, we need to strongly consider what would improve our chances in October. Freddie Garcia may or may not be a pitcher that could do so. I don't want the Garcia of 2006 back. But I would love the Garcia of 2005 on our roster again at some point this year. And I would think that we would have very good odds of getting Freddie back compared to other clubs if his arm was strong again. First, we are as strong a contender as anyone. Second, he's already helped us win one WS ring. Third, isn't he still Ozzie's son-in-law? Or is it brother-in-law? He's also got the Venezuelan connection, doesn't he? Anyway, no one's going to answer this debate right now, because no one knows whether Freddie has anything, or is just living a fantasy. But I certainly hope Kenny Williams checks it out. A pretty strong case can be made he was our best postseason starter in 2005. He won the division clinching game in Detroit, the ALDS clinching game in Boston, a complete-game win in Anaheim, and the WS clinching 1-0 game in Houston. Which reminds me -- he was a road master.

This from Buster Olney's blog: Freddy Garcia continues to throw in Miami and prepare for a comeback, and by the end of the month the free agent should be able to pitch a simulated game in Miami. Many teams remain in contact with his agents, and once he takes his rehabilitation program to the next stage, there's likely to be an army of scouts on hand to watch him throw. At a time when teams are beginning to weigh whether to trade prospects for pitching help, the only thing needed to acquire Garcia would be cash. ************ With Danks unlikely to make it through the season (given his youth and innings pitched), would anyone here want to welcome Freddie back? I certainly hope and expect Kenny Williams to be checking it out. Maybe Freddie would take a finish-the-year contract just to show he's back (if he is) with the idea of entering next offseason as someone worthy of one final multi-year deal? I'd be all for the former -- if he has a fastball again -- as it's low cost-high gain. He could duke it out with Esteban Loiaza for end-of-the-year honors. On that score, Freddie definitely has the postseason cred; Loiaza does not.

On a couple of threads now, I've floated the idea of bringing up Josh Fields. I still think it's a good idea. He's not tearing up AAA, but he's hitting fine down there. Slugging .497. OPS at .834. Whatever ailment he had, it seems behind him, as he's played regularly the last 10 games. What Fields' presence would allow for that the Sox don't do very well is to rest guys regularly. Here are 4 guys that could benefit if Fields were brought up. 1. Konerko (32) -- bad thumb. If he's not going on the DL, he needs to sit 1-2x a week to rest it. 2. Thome (37) -- should sit against lefties. His 3-year OPS against lefties is .669; righties 1.101. (Yes, he's hitting lefties better this year, for the first time ever. Don't expect it to hold. If it does, then sit him against some righties.) 3. Crede (30) -- back issues. After day off last week, went on a tear for several days, then didn't hit the last 2-3. Should sit at least 1x/week regularly. 4. Dye (34) -- not getting any younger. Between Brian Anderson and Josh Fields, we could sit these guys more often. And, by having Fields as the sub instead of Ozuna, our offense would not suffer as a result. Plus, Nick Swisher could get a break once a week too. Fields would cover Thome and Crede. Anderson would cover Dye (Swisher to RF), Konerko (Swisher to 1B), and Swisher. Both subs would get 3-4 games a week, which should keep them fresh too. Defense would not suffer.

Why not bring up Josh Fields? I don't think we need a lefty bat -- who's a lefty going to replace in the lineup? Instead, we need a right handed hitter who can spell Jim Thome. I'd vote for Fields well ahead of Getz because he has proven he can hit major league pitching quite well. Getz hasn't. Fields also gives us enough infield insurance -- he can rest Joe Crede -- that I would agree Pablo should be the odd guy out. Uribe can't hit, but he can field SS and 2B quite well, and we're on the hook for paying him, so we might as well keep him.

I think the only real similarities between 2005 and 2008 are that neither team was expected to win the AL Central going into the year, and both teams at this point were/are pretty strong favorites to stay in first place for the rest of the year. The 2005 season was a truly magical year. When it was over, I wrote a 17-page ode to the season just so I wouldn't forget it. Here's a few highlights. 1. The Sox had the lead in their first 37 ballgames. It was reminiscent of the 35-5 start for the 1985 Tigers. By the end of that stretch, I believed the 2005 team could win the World Series. 2. There was the silly Sox Haikus thread on this site that generated dozens upon dozens of entries. I wrote a ton myself. Here are a few I still like. Great Ozzie man say, Pitching and defense the way, To World Series play. Ya gotta believe In this torrid White Sox team To go all the way! Lee for Podsednik? Add AJ and El Duque Play Ozzie ball. Win! Thirty-fifth and Shields US Cellular team fields Baseball's supreme team US Cellular, Not Wrigley Field, is home to Chicago's best team All the way this year Eighty-eight year jinx is over White Sox are World Champs 3. Sox won opening day 1-0. Sox won first game after All-Star break 1-0. Sox won WS clinching game 1-0. 4. Sox had best record in 1-run games, best road record, best overall record, led wire-to-wire. 5. After the ASB, Sox swept 4 games at Cleveland. Later, after Cleveland got ridiculously hot themselves (24-4), Joe Crede burried their comeback with a walk-off HR at the Cell to win 7-6 in 10 innings. 6. Jose Contreras emerged mid-season into the rock of the pitching staff. Finally, we had a #1 guy. Everyone else lined up perfectly after that. 7. Frank Thomas only got about 100 ABs on the year, but hit 12 HRs in that span, giving us a big spark. His last games as a Sox player. That's just some of it. Add your own. I won't add the playoff memories here. This team still has a long way to go to match the magic of 2005. But I will say they have a chance. Good pitching always gives a team a chance.