VAfan

After 280+ posts, let me add my two cents. I didn't like the trade for Javy Vazquez in the first place (see below), even though I understood why Kenny made the move. At the time, neither Garland nor Contreras had signed their 3-year extensions, whereas Javy was locked in through 2008. Javy had a history of being able to throw 200 innings, and I'm sure Cooper thought there was some considerable upside in his lively arm. We'd turned Contreras around, after all, and finally gotten Garland into a zone where he was much more than a .500 pitcher. Plus, the Yanks were cutting Javy's cost to around $8-9 million/year, and having a reliable 5th starter who could eat 200 innings and do no worse than .500 was probably worth that. The extension was offered for the exact same reasons. Buerhle is not signed and will almost certainly walk. Contreras regressed dramatically after getting some small injuries. And Garland is good for only a couple more years before he may bolt for a better deal. Kenny has brought back a lot of young arms, but you can't expect to phase in more than one of these guys per year. Remember how long it took Garland to get off the .500 plateau? The trouble is, for the Sox' plan to work, JV has to become more than a .500 5th starter. The new kid gets to fill that role. JV has to fill Freddie Garcia's role at least and go at least 15-10, 4.25 ERA. If he doesn't, we can probably kiss the playoffs goodbye again because we play in an extremely competitive division. It doesn't matter whether JV's contract is market value, or provides stability. The point of playing baseball is to win the World Series. If JV doesn't produce like a #3 starter during the life of this deal, the plan is not going to work. We're going to remain a good team, but ultimately a team unable to repeat our 2005 miracle year. I would say there is still a possibility that Cooper will get Javy turned around. Frankly, if Ozzie had managed him last year by yanking him after 5 and going with McCarthy, he might have been that pitcher last year. So there is a possibility JV will produce like a 3rd starter should. But I wouldn't say it is more likely than not. I'd give him about a 30% chance. If he does it during the life of this contract, then this extension will have been a good move. If not, then we would have been better off using the money to re-sign Jermaine Dye. Because if all JV does is limp along at .500 with a high-4s ERA, we probably could have gotten that from one of the young arms that will be sitting in Charlotte, and for a lot less money. P.S. The reason I didn't like JV's signing in the first place is I agree with Dick Allen that it ended up hurting us big time last year, and potentially into the future. Chris Young could become Mike Cameron #2 with better plate discipline. And I'd rate the chances of that happening as significantly higher than the prospects for JV to become a consistent 15-10 #3 starter. Among all of our outfield prospects, Young was the one I always thought was the best -- by far. Indeed, I'm not sure ANY of our other prospects -- Anderson, Sweeney, Owens, et al -- will ever be even average ML ballplayers. I think Chris Young, however, will become a star. And we really need ML outfielders at the moment, because we only have one -- Jermaine Dye -- and he's going to walk next season in part b/c we won't be able to devote an extra $5 million/year keeping him around. That money could have come from replacing JV with one of our young arms. But the other thing the Javy deal cost us in 2006 was a screwed up bullpen, and this really sunk our season. McCarthy certainly could have given us as much as JV gave us in the 5th starter's role. El Duque likely would have been better than McCarthy in long relief. And Vizcaino would have shored up short relief when our only veteran, Cliff Politte, turned up with a bum arm. ***************** Time will tell whether this was a good deal. If JV starts winning at a .600 clip like a #3 starter should, then it will have been a good investment. If JV continues on recent trends, then it won't have been b/c we have enough quality young arms to find another .500 guy among them. Either way, KW needs to spend some time figuring out how to correct the mistake he made in trading Chris Young because our outfield, even with Jermaine, is below par. Without Jermaine, it's going to be a disaster.

This is a HORRIBLE signing. Erstad can't hit a lick, and I'm sure the range he once had in the outfield is long gone. Every AB Erstad gets playing CF should go to Ryan Sweeney. Even Mack is 10 times better as a hitter than Erstad. WTF are they thinking???? For all his focus on pitching, KW has not done anything to address the numerous holes in our lineup. Plus, the LAST thing we needed was another LEFTY. We have only 3 players on the ROSTER who can hit lefties, yet will face a Santana, Rogers, or Sabathia something like 15 times this season. AACCKKKKKKKK! My hopes for this season continue to decline.

Count me among those who believe we can contend, but we could also finish 4th. Starting pitching: Do we get the Contreras of the first half, or the second half? Will Buehrle bounce back? How consistent will Garland be? Can Vazquez pitch more than 5 innings without melting down? Who will our 5th starter be? One would hope the ERA of our starters should improve, but it might not, and if it doesn't look a whole lot more like 2005 than 2006, we aren't going to make the postseason. Bullpen: Sure, we have better arms, but how many guys are proven? Jenks, McDougal, Thornton. We could have some growing pains out there. And with Javy unable to pitch more than 5 innings, and an unproven 5th starter, we could have major bullpen needs in at least 2/5ths of our games. Lineup: Powerful offense?? Really?? We scored a lot more runs than 2005, but we had significant problems, and almost none of them got fixed in the offseason. Against lefties -- remember Santana and Sabathia will each be lined up against us 5 or more times -- we had next to no offense last year. We had only 3 players on our ROSTER who could hit a lefty -- Dye, Konerko, and Crede. The 4th best -- Ross Gload -- was traded. We've added a righty catcher, so that's a wash. Pods, Iguchi, Thome, AJ, Uribe, Anderson, Mack, and Cintron were all PATHETIC against lefties. After Ozuna got hurt, he was pathetic against everyone. Plus, even against righties, we have too many outs -- Uribe, Anderson, and Pods strung together make it very easy for a pitcher to kill rallies and to get a breather at least every third inning. In short, I think Kenny did very little to strengthen the team for 2007. I think most of his moves were designed to be able to turn over the starting staff over the next 3-4 years.

I think the article is mostly wishful thinking. Bullpen: yes, it should be better than last year, but best in the AL?? Hardly. The Angels pen is clearly deeper and more experienced, and I would bet the Tigers pen will be better than ours. Who's to say Jenks ERA won't worsen, rather than improve? Has anyone been tracking his eating habits? I love Big Bobby for the way he helped us to a World Series, but the guy is not a picture of stability. MacDougal has also been plagued by arm troubles recently, so you have to cross your fingers he stays healthy. I like Thornton. But Aardsma and everyone else mentioned is an unproven commodity. Strong arms don't always mean good bullpen pitchers. More consistent hitting? Really? Why? We still don't have anyone on the bench who can hit a lefty pitcher. Given the splits last season, that leaves us with three players who can hit if the other team uses a lefty starter or reliever -- Dye, Konerko, and Crede. Everyone else flat out sucked against lefties either all season or for very long stretches. Sure, BA should be better, but that's not saying much b/c he was SO terrible last year. Same for Uribe. Same for Pods. We're just trotting out the same guys HOPING they'll be better. And we actually got rid of our 5th best hitter -- yes, Ross Gload, Mr. .320. Check out his RC27 number if you don't believe me. It was better than Crede's. Better starting pitching? I would agree only b/c it can't be worse. Except then you have the question of health. We lost Contreras at a couple of points last year. What if someone else went down?? We have NO DEPTH of ML-ready starters. All the guys we added are a year or two away. Plus, there was a comment about Vazquez "having a better second half." WHAT??? The guy didn't win a single game after we played the Yankees in August, which happened to be the ONLY game all year Ozzie yanked him after 5 innings (even though JV consistently lost leads in the 6th inning game after game after game). We traded our best gamer -- Freddie Garcia -- the guy who beat Detroit 4 times last year, for prospects. So, I don't see any certainty that we can win more than 90 games in 2007. Plus, the writer says nothing about Cleveland. Cleveland is the biggest underachieving team in baseball, and has been the last two years. If they simply match their pythagorean projections they could jump to the head of the AL Central. We may contend in 07, but we could also finish 4th.

I voted for Haeger, because you can't bring a knuckler out of the bullpen and Haeger seems nearest to being ready. I agree that Floyd would be #2 if he can harness his control and get guys out. Danks, Gonzalez, et al. are being groomed to replace Buehrle, Vazquez, Contreras and Garland. The trouble is, the Sox will never be able to use all of these arms, and not all of them will turn out to be major league players. If they knew which ones would turn out, and which won't, they would trade the bad ones for outfielders. We need a LF and CF this year, and next year will be hard-pressed to replace Jermaine Dye.

Twenty replies and not one addressing whether Craig Wilson would be a good fit?? Alrighty, then .... I guess it's unanimous. Seriously, folks, get a grip. We got MURDERED last year by left handed pitching. Why? Because 6 guys in our lineup could not hit lefties to save themselves most of the time. Scott Podsednik Tadahito Iguchi -- anyone remember his splits for most of the year?? He sucked against lefties Jim Thome -- under .400 slugging against lefties -- that's pitiful. Ross Gload was better. AJ Pierzynski -- another lefty with terrible spits Juan Uribe -- couldn't hit lefties or righties Brian Anderson -- ditto (actually hit lefties worse) The three gaps in this lineup were the only guys who could hit lefties at all. Jermaine Dye, Paul Konerko, and Joe Crede. You can't win many games with mediocre pitching if only 3 guys in your lineup can hit. Off the bench we had: Rob Mackowiak -- hit lefties even worse than Podsednik, if that's possible Chris Widger or Sandy Alomar -- no hitting there Pablo Ozuna -- okay until he pulled his hammy. Then he went two months getting only 2 hits, yet never went on the DL??? Still, this no power guy is there for L/R balance?????? Alex Cintron -- as a righty hitter he is terrible. Guess who the best bench hitter was against lefties?? Yes, Ross Gload, whom we just traded. At least we added Toby Hall in an attempt to rectify the L/R imbalance at one position -- catcher. Now we badly need another right handed hitter for the bench. If we got Craig Wilson, I'd play him in LF most of the time. But he should also spell Thome for at least 20 starts against lefties. Thome was an automatic out against lefties in the second half last year. If you don't like Wilson, then come up with a better alternative. If KW doesn't address this HUGE HOLE, I'll be very disappointed.

In a short piece in USA Today listing some potential FA bargains, they listed Craig Wilson as one of the guys still free who could be a bargain. We still really need a RH bat off the bench who can play LF and 1B/DH because the lefty-righty splits last year for Scott Podsednik, Rob Mackowiak, and Jim Thome were HORRIBLE. Thome, the best of this lot, slugged less than .400 against lefties last season. Needless to say, Pablo Ozuna isn't going to fill this void. (Personally, I would rather have Sweeney up semi-platooning with Anderson in CF than have Ozuna. Without Sweeney, we are stuck with Mack backing up Anderson in CF. But that's another debate.) But Craig Wilson could. Here are his splits for the last 3 years. vs. Left 294 52 80 18 3 14 43 40 10 81 2 1 .272 .378 .497 .875 vs. Right 823 121 210 46 5 37 110 68 36 279 4 1 .255 .337 .458 .795 As far as fielding goes, he's played a lot more RF than LF, but he's played more in the OF than as a 1B. He's even played catcher in 40 games (it never hurts to have an emergency third guy there). His salary last year was $3.3 million. I wouldn't give him much more than that. But we really need someone to fill that hole, and now that Ross Gload is gone, we need a right hander to fill that need. If not Craig Wilson, then who??

Freddie was one of our "championship" players. Indeed, you could make a pretty good case that he was our best postseason pitcher -- on a par with Contreras -- in 2005. Sure wish we could have shipped off that weak-kneed Javier Vazquez instead and kept Freddie in Chicago for the next 5-6 years. I expect he'll average 15 wins/year into his late 30s, whether or not he regains the velocity he once had. Gavin Floyd and Gio Gonzalez -- together -- will be hard-pressed to win as many games over the same span. Sure hope I'm wrong about that, however.

If you carry out KW's and JR's recent comments to their logical conclusion, there is no way the Sox can re-sign ANY player after his current contract expires because the marketplace is just too expensive. And if you follow this logic out, that means you have to dump the player with a year left on their contract in order to get any value in the marketplace. So, right now, according to that twisted view, should we be saying bye-bye to: 1. Jermaine Dye -- why not unload him now?? He won't be affordable in 2008. 2. Mark Buehrle -- ditto. 3. Tadahito Iguchi -- contract runs out next year. Are there more?? Yet, we can give $2.9 million to bring back the worst starter on the team -- Scott Podsednik??? We built a championship club -- the first in almost 90 years -- by trading FOR guys like Freddie Garcia, and trading away unproven prospects like Jeremy Reed, Miguel Olivo, and Michael Morse. Now I suppose Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd are worth more than we gave the M's, but dumping the guy who beat the Tigers 4X last year and won 17 games for us to acquire two guys that are unlikely to even play for the Sox in 2007 seems a tad ridiculous. So much for competing with the Yankees and Red Sox and Angels. We're still a "small market" club in the eyes of our owner. Heck, why not just dump the whole team like the Marlins did -- twice??

I've been a Sox fan since 1970. But if the White Sox sign Barry Bonds, I will completely disown the club during the entirety of his time on the team. And it may be very difficult to revive my loyalty even after he is gone. As bad as the Garcia trade was, this rumor flat out sucks. We ride Frank Thomas out of town -- just about the only steroid-era slugger who never juiced -- and two seasons later bring in the #1 juicer, and liar, of them all??? To hell with baseball. I've been able to avoid BB b/c I could care less about the NL. If he ever puts on a Sox uni ... well may the curse of the black Sox be revived. I hope this rumor never comes to pass.

Pods RC27 number -- 3.88 -- ranks him among the worst qualifiers in baseball last year. Of course, this wasn't the worst figure on the team. While we're at it, why not look at the whole team. We averaged 5.35 runs/game. Who upped the average, and who lowered it? Our fabulous 3 Jim Thome = 9.15 Jermaine Dye = 8.77 Paul Konerko = 7.53 More than pulled their weight Ross Gload = 6.03 Ozuna = 5.83 Joe Crede = 5.70 Almost average AJ = 5.21 Iguchi = 5.26 Mack = 5.31 Offensive deadweights Brian Anderson 3.35 Juan Uribe 3.69 Pods 3.88 Cintron 4.24 No one else had even 100 plate appearances. So what conclusions should we draw from this?? Re-signing Pods for even $2.9 million is a lack of foresight and a mistake. Ross Gload should be our starting left fielder next season -- with Mackowiak backing him up -- unless someone can emerge that can hit nearly as well as he can and field better than he can. Ross Gload created 6 runs/game last year. And the other year he got more than 150 ABs, he created 6.41 runs/game. That is pretty damn good, considering Joe Crede comes in at 5.70 runs/game. It wouldn't put him among the LF leaders in this category, but it would be respectable. And Iguchi followed by Gload followed by Dye would be so much better than Pods/Iguchi/Dye that it wouldn't be funny. Gload is a prototypical #2 hitter -- high average, low strike outs, left handed, bunts well, hits lefties and righties equally well -- whereas Iguchi is being shoe-horned into that role. But I've given up hope that logic will prevail here. Ozzie Guillen has to be chirping in KW's ear about needing speed, speed, speed. To hell with speed. With Dye/Thome/Konerko being the best 3-4-5 in baseball, just get someone ON ahead of them.

"Barring a trade making sense for the White Sox in the present and helping in the future, Williams will bring his same starting five to Spring Training in Tucson in February. " I was going to start a separate post on this point, but I'll confine my comments to this thread for the moment. I see no reason why the Sox should make moves this offseason unless they will help the team make another run at a World Series in 2007. I don't think we should sell out for 2007, but I also don't see dumping skilled veterans to embark on some rebuilding plan that will clearly weaken our team next year. That's one huge reason why I thought the Crede+Garcia for Figgins+Santana deal made no sense for us. We could significantly weaken our team going into next season without appreciably helping us in the long run. Now, if the right deal came along for Vazquez -- and I don't think any deals for pitchers will materialize until the FA pitching market is settled and all the major arms are signed -- I think it would make sense to move him. But that's because I believe replacing Vazquez with McCarthy in 2007 would help us NEXT YEAR.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Nov 29, 2006 -> 07:45 PM) I'd just like to point out that you obviously have a negative bias against guys like Figgins. For you to even compare Pods and Figgins is ludicrious. Pods is not a speed guy, that was more than proven over the past season and a half by looking at his helpless steal %'s. Figgins is the premiere base stealer in baseball (yes, even more so than Pierre, imo) and he does it all while playing premium defense if you stick him at one position (whether its LF or CF). In addition to that he can also do an above avg job at 2nd, a decent job at SS and an admirable job at 3rd (although his error totals are a bit higher, he's still not brutal by all means, but he's definately no Crede). And this is coming from someone who has watched him play a ton over the past few seasons. If you think Figgins is garbage than I dont' even want to know what Pods is (nuclear waste???). I'll give you that Figgins is better than Juan Pierre, and I'll give you that Figgins is better than Pods (though he wasn't in the 2005 playoffs) b/c his steal rate is better, and he can play a lot more positions with at least passable defense. If we didn't have Rob Mackowiak, frankly, then Figgins would be a nice addition as a utility guy who can play just about everywhere. I'd take him over Mackowiak too. But I don't really like weak hitters who can't compensate with a high OBP. I like Ray Durham b/c he's got real pop in his bat, kills lefties, and strikes out a lot less than Figgins. Ray's RC27 number, which is probably the best single measure of offensive value, was 6.57 last year, ranking him 47th in baseball. Chone Figgins came in more than 1-1/2 runs/game less, at 4.80, ranking him 126th (ahead of Pierre and well ahead of Pods at 4.10). Plus, it only costs money to sign Ray, and he's been on winning Sox teams before. Who knows what the Angels want for Chone Figgins? But why give up talent to get a lesser player??

QUOTE(southsideirish71 @ Nov 28, 2006 -> 05:27 PM) You are the one who wants to consistantly stay with what we have, throw the bones and hope for the best. So We Willie Harris got into scoring position for the series clinching run. Should we have kept him, what about Geoff Blumm. If you want Joe to stay, give him a call and tell him to fire boras and take a decent offer. As far as resigning these people, LOL. How much money do you think we have. We are already at over 100 million dollars. Lets put this in whats going to happen. Freddy and his fastball will still get a lot of money no matter how bad he is. Crap is getting 8 mill a year this offseason. Joe Crede will run towards FA, like the titanic sailed towards the iceberg. Nothing will change it. He will get jackpot prices. And Mr. Boras doesnt believe in a hometown discount. So kiss him goodbye. See you. How much will Jermaine Dye get next year. Gooch is gone after this year. So again, how are we keeping these guys all together. Oh yeah, we trade some people who are near the end of their contract so we can infuse the team with new talent. This is how the WS was won in the first place. We traded Carlos Lee, whom Scotty Pods couldnt hold his jock with the bat. Magglio who is a nice hitter, he gone. Jose Valentstatche is also gone. This is called turnover. It happens. But the turnover has to make sense. If Joe Crede has another monster year like he had in 2006 -- or if he actually continues to improve by drawing more walks, which is the only thing holding him down offensively -- then he will actually have MORE trade value next offseason than this year. He's locked up for TWO more years, not one. And I don't buy the notion that teams will pay a lot more for having those two years because any team that wants to trade for him, like the Angels, will be able to pay the freight to extend his contract. Having a second year of better offensive production will be worth a LOT more than losing that one year of being tied up. Plus, after another year -- in 2008 -- I could actually envision Josh Fields coming in and starting at 3B. So, instead of having to find a stop-gap player that seriously hurts our team at 3B, we could plug in someone from our own farm system who may step right in and contribute offensively, even if he'll never be Joe Crede with the glove. Chone Figgins would be a disaster at 3B. Rob Mackowiak would be even worse. (Do you remember the game last year when he was pressed into duty and just about every ball got by him??) Moving Juan Uribe is no answer. And Josh Fields isn't close to being ready. So this trade idea creates a HUGE hole in our team when we already have enough holes to fill -- LF, SS, CF, backup C, right handed DH for spot duty. Kenny Williams is totally correct when he says he doesn't have to do anything right now. The Angels should be the ones overpaying if they want Joe Crede a year ahead of schedule. I wasn't kidding when I said the deal should be Figgins + Santana (at least) for Crede. They would be getting one of the best 3B in baseball -- a gamer who was perhaps our most important postseason asset in 2005. Meanwhile, Chone Figgins was non-existant in the 2005 ALCS, and then went downhill from there in 2006. I don't consider him to be of any real value in a trade. He's Scott Podsednik with a better success rate on SBs. Now, as for the pitchers. I would take Freddy Garcia over Ervin Santana next season. Call me crazy if you want, but these are Freddy's career totals: SEASON TEAM G GS CG SHO IP H R ER HR BB SO W L SV HLD BLSV ERA 1999 Sea 33 33 2 1 201.1 205 96 91 18 90 170 17 8 0 0 -- 4.07 2000 Sea 21 20 0 0 124.1 112 62 54 16 64 79 9 5 0 0 -- 3.91 2001 Sea 34 34 4 3 238.2 199 88 81 16 69 163 18 6 0 0 -- 3.05 2002 Sea 34 34 1 0 223.2 227 110 109 30 63 181 16 10 0 0 -- 4.39 2003 Sea 33 33 1 0 201.1 196 109 101 31 71 144 12 14 0 0 -- 4.52 2004 CWS 16 16 0 0 103.0 96 53 51 14 32 102 9 4 0 0 -- 4.46 2004 Sea 15 15 1 0 107.0 96 39 38 8 32 82 4 7 0 0 -- 3.20 2004 -- 31 31 1 0 210.0 192 92 89 22 64 184 13 11 0 0 -- 3.81 2005 CWS 33 33 2 0 228.0 225 102 98 26 60 146 14 8 0 0 -- 3.87 2006 CWS 33 33 1 0 216.1 228 116 109 32 48 135 17 9 0 0 -- 4.54 Total -- 252 251 12 4 1643.2 1584 775 732 191 529 1202 116 71 0 0 -- 4.01 What you can see from this is that Freddy has had a blip in the road before -- in 2003, when his ERA was very much like what it was last year. Yet Freddy came back strong from that to post two of the best seasons of his career. I expect Freddy will bounce back again next season and beyond. And I wouldn't at all be surprised if Freddy pitches as well or better than Ervin Santana over the next 5 years. So, what you are gaining with Santana is lower cost and having him locked up longer. Now this is not an insignificant value. However, if the object is to get to and win another World Series, I'm not sure it helps us even marginally. Santana might not be nearly as good of a pitcher if he called the Cell his home. Look at Santana's home and away splits over his two years: Away 6.46 9 11 0 0 25 25 0 134.2 150 101 96 23 54 100 .284 Home 3.09 19 5 0 0 31 31 1 204.0 170 78 70 15 63 140 .228 He's 9-11 on the road, with a 6.46 ERA. But in Anaheim, he pitches magnificently. I don't trust a pitcher with that kind of split coming to a HR ballpark as his home field. I hope this deal never goes down. ******************* My bottom line is this: Keep Crede for another year. Make an attempt to sign him next offseason, and if it doesn't go, trade him then. He ought to be able to bring back a pitcher with enough quality to replace Buehrle or Garcia at that point. As for pitching, I would trade Vazquez this season if a starter has to go. I would use the savings to approach Buehrle for a 3-year extension. Buehrle might bite now rather than risk having another bad year cause his value to drop. I would just ride out Garcia for another year and try to get back to the World Series, believing that Contreras, Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, and McCarthy, with a solid bullpen, will be the class pitching staff of the AL once again (or at least co-equals). Depending on market and performance, I'd consider re-signing Garcia next offseason as a FA. If he walks, I'd trade Crede to replace him and use the money saved on Garcia/Crede to re-sign Jermaine Dye. We ought to be able to afford Dye and others b/c Thome won't have much longer to go after next year. So, please don't accuse me of not being willing to make changes. I just think it is a year early to make any moves with Crede or Garcia. Crede will be more valuable in a year. And Garcia -- who seems to have very little trade value at the moment -- will provide far more value playing for us next season because he'll give us a chance to get to the postseason and win.

QUOTE(shawnhillegas @ Nov 28, 2006 -> 12:45 PM) Its simply impossible for people on this board to look at these things objectively. Figgins worthless??? Give me a f***ing break. He stole 50 bases last year, and while is average and OBP are not very good, he is absolutely a better option in left than Pods. What is your suggestion for LF? Ervin Santana is 23, and I remember everyone on this board laughing at the Orioles for turning down a Tejada deal that involved Santana, many saying that the Orioles should have taken the deal straight up. He has better stuff than anyone on our staff (perhaps with the exception of a healthy Jose) and hes signed for a long time....but all this has been said before. Someone should really pull up all the complaints about Freddy lodged during the year, so that people can realize hes really not THAT valuable. He's signed for one year, Crede is signed for two, and we are going to get NO return on either if we keep them, and clubs know that. Lets not forget that Kenny made it somewhat clear that we cant resign Joe, so teams realize that we either move him or lose him for nothing. Up next is the talk about how clubs really want Heath Philips... Would we really rather have Vazquez for some Mets or Rangers arms, or lose Crede and Garcia and gain Crawford and Figgins. That seems to be the real issue here if all this speculation is correct. And I prefer the second option. Figgins is worthless. His OBP sucks, and he has no power. In the 2005 ALCS, did he even get on base more than once?? Pods, as bad as he is, played circles around him in 2005. As for Ervin Santana, people are acting like he's Francisco Liriano without elbow troubles. Sure, he has a live arm. And he's relatively cheap because he's just starting out. But is he going to be a dominant starter? Is he a #1 guy? Will he ever be a #1 guy? I don't think so. As bad as Freddie Garcia was last year, he still managed to win 17 games, and lose 9. (Santana was 16-8.) Sure, I'd take Santana for Garcia straight up because of the age difference (though I know the Angels wouldn't make that deal), but I don't think Santana will be that much better of a pitcher over the next 3-4 years, frankly. I think Freddy's arm is going to come back, and he's got enough guile that he will remain a winning pitcher into his late 30's. Mark it down. But the deal buster would be dumping Joe Crede at this point. You might as well add a half run to the team ERA if we eliminate the vacuum man from 3B next year. Especially if you are talking about replacing him with Josh Fields or Chone Figgins. If you want Joe Crede, you'd have to offer me more than Ervin Santana. We don't have our first WS trophy in 89 years if we don't have Joe Crede at 3B. So far, I haven't seen any deals that make a lot of sense for the Sox. We really need better offensive production from LF, SS, and CF, plus a solidified bullpen, and, most important of all, better production from our starters. But it is not easy to fix any of those issues. Which starters do you keep, and which do you trade? Should we give up on Brian Anderson after only one year -- when he was rushed too soon to begin with? Should we abandon Juan Uribe, whose defense is stellar, and his tremendous SS power?? Is there a good option in LF that costs less than $10 million/year?

QUOTE(Balta1701 @ Nov 28, 2006 -> 11:35 AM) I don't know about 300 at bats, depending on what our LF fix winds up being, but it honestly would be a good idea to just pencil in Konerko at DH and Gload at 1b one time per week for the entire season. It would probably help big Jim avoid some of those nagging little things that started to catch up with him around August of last year. Well, he got 234 ABs in 2004, and led the team with a .321 average. So if you give him enough ABs, he's going to hit in the .320s. Sure would be nice to get that kind of production out of LF, SS, or CF. If Gload could play the field just about anywhere but 1B, he should get 500+ ABs.

Joe Crede ALONE is worth more than Santana and Figgins. Why do we always sell our own players so short on Soxtalk??

Ross Gload is a total bargain. With those splits, he should have been subbing for Jim Thome against lefties more of the time. I'd also be fine with him playing LF, though probably not as a full-time player. And he's really a perfect #2 hitter. High average, low strike-outs, can pull the ball, can bunt well. Given enough ABs, he'd probably hit double-digit HRs. The problem is that Ozzie underutilizes him. Instead of 150 ABs, he ought to get twice that number.

Shouldn't this read Crede OR Garcia for Santana AND Figgins? This is a preposterous rumor. Everyone mentions Ervin Santana's name, but I don't salivate over him. 4.28 ERA and 1.23 WHIP. That ranked him 43rd in baseball last year. Figgins is worthless. Crede can't walk for another couple of years. We need his production for the time being. I wouldn't trade him until Josh Fields is ready to take over, if that's what it comes to.

QUOTE(SoxFan1 @ Nov 27, 2006 -> 03:01 PM) Baldelli, Crawford, or Figgins please. But, for the right price, I would love to have Ray back. One of my favorite White Sox payers ever and he has still got some left in the tank. It would be fantastic to have Ray Ray back. I know Hawk would love it. Chone Figgins is not worth squat, IMHO. He did nothing against us in the ALCS in 2005, has a poor OBP, and almost no power. He has speed, but so does Pods. If that's what we want, I'd rather keep Pods. Baldelli. Well, these were his numbers his first two seasons: 2003 TB 156 637 89 184 32 8 11 78 30 128 27 10 .289 .326 .416 .742 2004 TB 136 518 79 145 27 3 16 74 30 88 17 4 .280 .326 .436 .762 30 walks per year. Last year, in 92 games, he walked 14 times. No thanks. Crawford?? Sure, he'd be a much better answer, but at what price?? McCarthy plus Fields?? Would that even get it done?? Too pricey. I'll take Ray, though $8 million/year for 3 years is steep. Maybe he can be had for less, or for 2 years and an option.

Scrolling through Phil Rogers article today: http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sp...tesox-headlines -- there was one name that peaked my interest to fill our hole in left field -- Ray Durham. Why not bring Ray back?? Here are his totals hitting in a pitchers park the last 4 seasons: 2003 SF 110 410 61 117 30 5 8 33 50 82 7 7 .285 .366 .441 .807 2004 SF 120 471 95 133 28 8 17 65 57 60 10 4 .282 .364 .484 .848 2005 SF 142 497 67 144 33 0 12 62 48 59 6 3 .290 .356 .429 .785 2006 SF 137 498 79 146 30 7 26 93 51 61 7 2 .293 .360 .538 .898 Sure, those aren't Manny Ramirez numbers, but they look plenty good from my perspective. And, at 35, it doesn't look like he's into any serious decline. He seemed to miss significant time in 2001 and 2002, but no time the last two years. As a switch hitter, he'd be great slotted #2 in the lineup, with Iguchi moving to the #1 hole. Plus, he kills lefties, which we need desperately. So Mackowiak would be a good match, giving Ray a rest against some right handers. (These are 3-year splits.) vs. Left 348 62 113 25 3 16 56 35 1 32 4 0 .325 .386 .552 .938 vs. Right 1118 179 310 66 12 39 164 121 14 148 19 9 .277 .352 .462 .814 As for playing the outfield, I don't see why he'd have any issues. He doesn't have enough range for CF, but I don't see why he couldn't handle LF. Soriano managed the switch pretty well. If there's a better option out there, I'm not committed to this, but so far all we've seen are guys off the market at ridiculous prices (Soriano, Matthews Jr., Pierre, Roberts, etc.), low OPS guys like Chone Figgins, and the prospect of bringing back Scott Podsednik or putting Sweeney, Owens, or Fields out there. Please give me Ray Durham over all of those choices.

QUOTE(ptatc @ Nov 21, 2006 -> 05:06 PM) Off the top of my head how about Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz? or AJ Pierzynski for Joe Nathan, Fransico Liriano and Boof Bonser or Matt Karchner for Jon Garland or Harold Baines and Wayne Tolleson for Sammy Sosa Wilson Alvarez and Scott Fletcher. We can get better by picking up nearly ready pitching prosepcts to help us in the next couple of years when free agents leave while putting MaCarthy in the rotation. This would not work if we didn't have Macarthy ready. But Alexander and Karchner were traded in the middle of pennant races by teams that were not in the race, which is exactly my point. Teams in the race will trade anything to give them a half-year of someone they think will help put them over the top. The other trades are hitters for pitchers (or vice versa), which is the much more likely scenario -- again my exact point. We aren't going to get great pitching prospects for one of our 5 main starters. And we also aren't going to turn around prospects to make some third trade, which is what some people have suggested. BTW -- how good is Lastings Milledge? Should we go after that guy? He failed last season, but isn't he supposed to be a 5-tool guy?

QUOTE(Want2Repeat @ Nov 20, 2006 -> 10:33 PM) On the pitching front, I like Kenny's continued plan to add power pitchers to the pen. I think he will add 1-2 more. I wish we had some more power pitchers in that starting lineup. A lot of the rumours out there indicate that Sox will be trying to add a top young pitching prospect if one of our starters are moved. I have no trouble adding power pitchers to the pen, but I can't see trading one of our starting 5 for pitching prospects. Isn't that what teams out of the race do at midseason? How can you expect to get better pitching back?? It just doesn't compute in my mind. If someone can provide some examples where that has worked, let me know. What I could see is trading one of our starters -- and I'm convinced it has to be Javier Vazquez, both because with a longer contract he should have more value and because I think the trade for him really weakened this team last year -- for a young outfielder with significant potential. Of course, we gave up a young outfielder with significant potential to get Vazquez last year -- Chris Young. Wouldn't it be nice to have him back?? He could be in the mix for CF or LF in 2007, and he could soften the blow when we lose Jermaine Dye in 2008. I'm still not sold on Brian Anderson or Ryan Sweeney (or Josh Fields) as above average outfielders of the future, much less superstars. If we could get someone with significant potential for our outfield -- Lastings Milledge? -- for Vazquez, I would make that kind of deal. But I'm still not seeing GREAT choices out there. I'd almost rather roll the dice again with what we have.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Nov 21, 2006 -> 11:34 AM) It was looking like a valid point until you used wins as a way to evaluate a pitcher. Well, take ERA or WHIP. Freddy's ERA was basically the same as Garland's, and his WHIP was basically the same as Jose's. I know it is fashionable to badmouth Garcia on this site. I think it is a mistake. Garcia is a far better pitcher than Javier Vazquez has ever been, or will ever be. Going forward, I think that will remain true. Garcia is a money pitcher who has been able to suck it up and win big games, and I don't think his arm is finished. Vazquez was the mistake for this team. All promise; no performance. It really undermined the team. I'd take Chris Young alone in trade for him if Arizona would do it. Of course they won't. If the Mets would take him for Milledge, I'd do it.

Last season, KW made "one trade too many." It was the Vazquez trade. He had always coveted Vazquez, and thought under Coop that we could rekindle his potential. The problem was the guy was a mental midget who consistently melted down in the 6th inning game after game after game. (Do you realize the last game he won on the year was against the Yankees when Ozzie, for the only time all year, pulled him after 5?) Now the problem is that Vazquez is overvalued b/c he's locked up longer than either Buehrle or Garcia, and with contract inflation setting in at a huge level this year, it would cost us a LOT to keep both Buehrle and Garcia beyond this year, while Vazquez will remain "cheap" for the next two seasons. Still, you have to win games on the field. And Freddy Garcia, for all his troubles, won 17 games last year. Only Garland won more. Contreras, our first half ace, won only 13 and had to be shut down. Buehrle won 12. Vazquez won 11, including no games down the stretch. (His last win was August 10th. He went 0-5 after that point.) So, the obvious choice if we want to win next year is to trade Vazquez. Unfortunately, we aren't going to get back what we gave up to get him, even if his contract is now relatively "cheap."