VAfan

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Jul 15, 2005 -> 05:35 PM) I think you are all becoming victims of teams vying for the White Sox talent. You need to take a step back & look at your team. Marte comes off the DL & looks superb. D Marte relieved C Politte. BOT 8th LHB G Sizemore struck out swinging. SHB C Crisp struck out looking. LHB T Hafner struck out swinging. TOP 9th Convince me again why we are trading Contreras for Burnett? Batting #1 .269/.731 - not bad Batting #2 .176/.616 - wow! Batting #3 .271/.783 - not bad Batting #4 .233/.842 - should we compare #4 in NL vs #4 in AL this year? Not a pretty picture for the NL. Batting #5 .178/.628 - wow! Batting #6 .154/.622 - wow! Batting #7 .136/.493 - unbelievable! Batting #8 .359/1.174 - aberration Batting #9 .225/.506 - unbelievable! You can look back to see how that compares with AJB. Contreras is pitching like everyone thought he would when the Yanks signed him. You would be a fool to trade him right now. The Yanks threw in cash to drop his cost to below $7M next year. That's a good deal. If Marte's improved strength is for real this team doesn't need much in terms of pitching & defense. You can argue a solid closer only because Hermy has never had to close day in & day out like this. The main weakness in this team is hitting vs RHP: .248/.707 Contrast that with our hitting vs LHP: .296/.830 Gload is sure to help once KW can convince OZ to bring him up. Gload 04-05 vs LHers: .383/.994 vs RHers: .298/.803 Cincy has the cure to what ails us: vs RHers S Casey 1B VS. L: .346/.840 VS. R: .291/.711 H: .309/.722 A: .317/.802 : Split time w Paulie in 2005 & if Ozzie likes him buh bye Paulie. A Dunn LF/1B VS. L: .184/.765 VS. R: .267/1.018, H: .250/1.019 A: .226/.841 : Split time w Pods in 2005 & if Ozzie likes him buh bye Paulie. K Griffey CF VS. L: .287/.891 VS. R: .287/.867 H: .311/.921 A: .261/.825 : There is no rule that says you have to play him in CF. He could play any OF position or DH for that matter. Griffey's versatility at the plate means Ozzie has a future HOFer bat he can play in no less than 4 positions everyday. The contract is a dream for JR & company. A marquee player sure to draw at the gate for $6M/yr thru 2009. Then about $58M deferred after that. He can still keep his home in Cinn. On a private carrier it's less than an hr's flight time from MDW to Cinn. He can copter from the Cell to MDW in less than 30 minutes. Copter home from Cinn airport in about the same time. 3 hours commute tops. Joe Randa 3B VS. L: .290/.847 VS. R: .305/.882 H: .298/.892 A: .303/.851 Perfect pick up to split time with Crede. Omar Vizquel SS VS. L: .255/.684 VS. R: .324/.795 H: .277/.699 A: .333/.832 Perfect pick up to split time with Uribe. That's where KW should be spending his time dealing. Some of what you write makes sense, but you lose me when you start wanting half of the Cincy Reds lineup. No to Dunn, Kearns, or Griffey. I'd take Randa as insurance for Crede if his price is right. But if we add Randa and send out Willie Harris, we still don't get Ross Gload, because we have to keep Ozuna as backup SS. (That may be a trade off we have to make.) And I'm all for Omar Vizquel, but SF is going to need a replacement SS that can start, and only Juan Uribe fills that bill.

Just thought I would revive this thread. Now that Jose has had back-to-back solid outings, should we consider keeping him for the stretch run? Or do we think he'll crash and burn like he seemed to in part of June and early July. This is his game by game log. DATE GAME W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO IP H R ER HR BB SO NP-S GO-AO APR 07 CLE 0 0 1.50 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 4 1 1 0 2 4 96-62 11-3 APR 13 @CLE 0 0 3.55 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.2 5 4 4 1 5 3 104-55 5-11 APR 18 MIN 0 0 3.63 1 1 0 0 0 0 4.2 6 3 2 0 4 2 104-62 7-5 APR 23 @KCA 0 0 3.48 1 1 0 0 0 0 3.1 1 1 1 1 1 6 61-36 2-2 APR 29 DET 0 0 3.04 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 3 1 1 1 3 6 113-63 7-5 MAY 05 KCA 1 0 2.60 1 1 0 0 0 0 8.0 4 1 1 1 1 6 102-69 8-9 MAY 10 @TBA 0 0 3.18 1 1 0 0 0 0 5.0 5 4 4 1 5 3 90-51 5-7 MAY 15 BAL 0 1 3.52 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.1 7 5 4 2 1 4 100-62 9-6 MAY 21 @CHN 1 0 3.23 1 1 0 0 0 0 7.0 4 1 1 0 1 4 78-52 8-9 MAY 26 @ANA 0 1 3.30 1 1 0 0 0 0 7.0 4 3 3 1 1 9 95-65 5-7 JUN 01 ANA 0 0 3.27 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 5 4 2 1 3 4 102-66 8-6 JUN 07 @COL 1 0 3.13 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 5 1 1 0 2 6 103-64 4-8 JUN 13 ARI 0 1 3.81 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 9 8 8 4 3 4 118-65 4-10 JUN 19 LAN 0 0 3.83 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.2 6 3 3 0 4 5 102-61 8-7 JUN 25 CHN 0 1 4.15 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.1 8 6 6 1 2 3 105-61 7-8 JUL 01 @OAK 0 1 4.34 1 1 0 0 0 0 4.1 4 4 4 0 7 2 97-50 5-6 JUL 06 TBA 1 0 4.26 1 1 0 0 0 0 6.0 6 2 2 2 3 1 85-51 4-12 JUL 14 @CLE 1 0 3.99 1 1 0 0 0 0 7.0 3 0 0 0 3 7 97-62 4-10 I've highlighted the outings where he's gone at least 6 innings and given up 0, 1, or 2 runs. He's done it against Cleveland, Detroit, KC, Cubs, Colorado, Tampa, and Cleveland again. So, out of 18 starts, 7 have been very high quality. He's also had 2 games where he's pitched at least 6 and given up 3 runs, against Anaheim and the Dodgers. In 5 other games he's given up 4 runs, against Cleveland, Tampa, Baltimore, Anaheim, and Oakland. In 2 starts he was torched for 8 runs by Arizona and 6 runs by the Cubs. In the last 2 games he only went 3.1 innings and 4.2 innings, but gave up 1 and 3 runs respectively, to Minn. and KC. ********************* I'll say this. I don't want to trade him for AJ Burnett. Contreras is signed for this year and next, and he seems as reliable a pitcher as Burnett, who has only 1 game where he surrendered 1 or 0 runs this year. Would I still trade him for Jason Schmidt? Probably, but it sure looks a lot closer to an even exchange at this point. The good news for us is we don't need to be in a panic, especially if El Duque comes back Monday and pitches well. Marte's resurgence at the point where Neal Cotts was showing signs of overuse is also welcome. We could do worse than going into the postseason with the pitching we currently have.

Jason Schmidt's night: 6 innings, 4 hits, 4 BBs, 7 Ks, 1 run, left for pinch hitter in 7th in 1-1 tie at Dodger Stadium. He's still the right move for the Sox. Now that Contreras has found his form in back to back games, I wouldn't give much more than Contreras-Uribe for Schmidt-Vizquel, but it's still the best deal that has been discussed over the last two weeks. One A list prospect like Anderson and a B list prospect should be enough. And I'm not in a hurry to make this deal. July 31 would be fine.

QUOTE(Tony82087 @ Jul 15, 2005 -> 03:13 AM) This team is just not built on big names AT ALL, and adding Lowell and Burrnet just frankly scare me in not only the whole "chemistry" stuff, but just the makeup, and the look and feel of the team, sort of down the chemistry path. In my eyes, Lilly just fits more than anyone right now. But tell me again why Toronto is shopping Lilly when they just lost their starting ACE? Toronto needs to add a starter, not subtract another one. We may think they are out of the wild card, but I'll bet they don't think that.

Contreras pitches 7 shutout innings against a division rival. Burnett gives up 6 runs on 6 hits (3 HRs) and 4 walks, with 3 Ks in 5 innings against a division rival. 86 pitches, only 47 strikes. Marlins give him a 3-0 lead in the top of the 2nd, and it doesn't even last a half inning. I hope we steer clear of Burnett at this point. I don't watch Marlins games, but he seems just as much of a head case that can't control his great "stuff" as Jose. Burnett has had only had 1 outing this year when he gave up less than 2 runs. After tonight, Contreras has had 6. Yes, 6.

QUOTE(Wedge @ Jul 15, 2005 -> 12:38 AM) I believe that most agreed that the price for Schmidt would be Contreras, BMac, and a prospect. That's pretty expensive for a guy that you're unsure if he'll be with you next year and if he can be healthy. Contreras yes (he can't pitch against Cleveland every game), but we wouldn't have to give up BMac. I'd let them have Brian Anderson though, because he's not going to beat out Dye this year or next, and after that Sweeney or Young might be ready. And Jeckle 2000, this is why you would buy Jason Schmidt: 2002 SF 29 29 2 2 185.1 148 78 71 15 73 196 13 8 0 0 -- 3.45 2003 SF 29 29 5 3 208.2 152 56 54 14 46 208 17 5 0 0 -- 2.34 2004 SF 32 32 4 3 225.0 165 84 80 18 77 251 18 7 0 0 -- 3.20 By comparison, Freddy Garcia had these years in a similar pitcher's park: 2002 Sea 34 34 1 0 224.2 227 110 109 30 63 181 16 10 0 0 -- 4.39 2003 Sea 33 33 1 0 201.1 196 109 101 31 71 144 12 14 0 0 -- 4.52 I take it you are happy with Freddy's production with us. If there wasn't some question about Schmidt there is no chance he would be available. But you can hardly say he's a lousy pitcher.

Ross Gload isn't coming back for now with Crede's 2 herniated disks. They won't go with just Ozuna as a backup infielder.

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Jul 14, 2005 -> 09:45 PM) No thank you. Moving Crede right now is a chemistry buster. Especially with the way Ozuna played everyday as his backup. Lowell is owed $18M/2yr for 2006/7. Lowell's ZR .758 vs Crede's .831. These two have similar innings played. That's a substantial decline. I don't like Lowell's lack of range and offensive funk (though maybe he'd hit more HRs in the Cell). But mostly I don't like his contract. Unless JR is going to up the payroll significantly, adding Lowell will cost us a significant piece somewhere else. And no way do I give them Marte too (as he's the best chip to getting Guardado if we want to upgrade the pen).

QUOTE(Wedge @ Jul 14, 2005 -> 09:02 PM) That is blockbuster; however, we have to remember what the goal of acquiring another starting pitcher is: to replace HERNANDEZ. If we trade Contreras, we still have the same problem that we had before. I disagree. If we want a 4th starter for the postseason, the best move is to send off Contreras and his $8 million salary. That would make Schmidt or Burnett affordable next year because they would be put into Jose's salary slot. El Duque will give us enough starts to help win the division, it is the postseason we should all be concerned about.

QUOTE(GreatScott82 @ Jul 14, 2005 -> 08:56 PM) THe Marlins beat-writer was just on 670WSCR and confirmed that 12 teams are after Burnett, but the 3 major teams interester are Baltamore, Toronto and the White Sox. He said the Marlins have been interested in Contreras for over 2 years now- and see him as there potential closer. He also said the Marlins want to dump Mike Lowell's contract so would most likely have to be involved with this trade. So this trade would most likely be: Contreras, Marte and Crede for Burnett and Lowell. WOW- thats Blockbuster. If we have to accept Mike Lowell's $32 million contract, then there is no way they should get Damaso Marte in the deal unless they are giving us something else or paying half of Lowell's contract.

QUOTE(Wedge @ Jul 14, 2005 -> 08:51 PM) You know, his stats don't look too much worse from Schmidt's... is everybody off the Schmidt bandwagon yet? I still think Schmidt is a much more likely trade target then AJ Burnett. For one, the Giants, but not the Marlins, are out of the race. For another, the Giants might accept Contreras as part of the return package. Then we won't have any problem exercising Schmidt's option for 2006. And everyone would recognize that Schmidt has been a whole lot better than Burnett over the last 3 years. The only concern people have is his early-season decline in velocity. Yet the last game he pitched I saw and he didn't look like an injured pitcher to me, and he was firing pitches at 95 consistently through the middle innings and into the 7th. Leiter? I'd take him for nothing if he'd accept a rehab assignment at AAA to see if he could be sorted out. Would he take that? I don't know.

Harris needs to go down to find some kind of hitting stroke again, and to continue improving his batting eye which led to a fair amount of walks this year. But I hope we see Willie back on the postseason roster unless someone demands him in a key trade because his speed could be worth more than an 11th pitcher.

I think KW has to think in terms of turning this club from one that is thought of as solid but overachieving, to a club that starts to dominate all comers. We've been that way against the weak teams, but we've only really just been competitive against the better teams, and we still have a blind spot against the A's (the same kind of blind spot we used to have against the Twins). That's going to require even better pitching - starting and relieving - and an offense that can beat lefties and righties equally. We have the best record in baseball. But an upgrade in talent would allow us to claim title to being the best team in baseball. When we go into the postseason, I want the White Sox to be the team that everyone else is trying to beat.

QUOTE(Chisoxfn @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 05:20 PM) If the Sox get Jason Schmidt and he pitches like he's capable (thats obviously a question-mark) than they do will have the ability go into the playoffs and potentially dominate based on pitching. Personally I'd like to see the Sox add Schmidt, Vizquel, and a quality reliever. If they do that they'd have 4 good starters (Contreras as the 5th and into the pen in the playoffs) as well as a very strong pen (especially if they could add a guy like Everyday Eddie) and a very solid lineup. Just imagine moving Guchi down to the 6th spot with Vizquel in the 2 hole. Guchi is the type of player that could produce at a higher clip (production wise) if moved down. Not to say Guchi isn't a good 2 hole hitter (he is) but he could also have a lot of success in a more production oriented spot, imo. I think Kenny should go all out and there are only a few pieces I'd really hold onto. Brandon McCarthy is one of the guys I'd like to see the Sox keep, but the only can't trade guy I have is Chris Young (I'll deal other guys). Sounds like you agree with my post above (#275). But what do you do about 3B? Happy with Ozuna? Willing to rely on Crede's back? Where's Herb Perry when you need him?

QUOTE(qwerty @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 04:56 PM) Chances of him being dealt this season are probally closer to 0% unless they get a crazy offer they cannot refuse. They honestly have no reason to be moving him now when they can get the same value at the end of the season or early on into next season. No, joe borchard, ross gload, vizcaino, starting pitchers could not even get close to huff. We would be lucky if those guys brought us back jose mesa let alone one of the younger, good hitting lefties ( pretty cheap for the numbers he puts up) in aubrey huff. So Huff is not a free agent at the end of the year? Okay, I now realize that he has one more year to freedom. So my next question is whether he is signed or arbitration eligible? If the latter, TB may still trade him and they can't demand much. But I'm willing to go with Plan B at 3B - Joe Randa. It is more troubling because there is no obvious way to mix him in with Joe Crede and I'm not willing to trade Crede. And there's no obvious way to mix him with Paul Konerko. But we need insurance against Crede's back tightness flaring up into a full blown trip to the DL.

QUOTE(RockRaines @ Jul 12, 2005 -> 03:28 PM) I think your ideas leave the bullpen a little weak in the long reliever area. But that is certainly trading the farm to try and make a run, I will give you that. However, we wont make that many moves. But in the deals I would make I wouldn't necessarily give up all 3 of Marte, Takatsu and Vizcaino. I think Marte would be the key to a Guardado trade or I'd keep him. But SF wouldn't get both Takatsu and Vizcaino, and might not want either. Then you'd have the same bullpen we have now with Guardado for Marte. Jenks, in that case, would likely keep developing in AA. And a week ago I would have only made the Schmidt-Vizquel trade. Crede's back troubles and Ozuna's inability to cover 3B revived my earlier interest in trading for Aubrey Huff, while Cott's recent slippage and Marte's continued arm troubles have revived my interest in Guardado.

These are the 3 deals I would try to make after the All-Star break. 1. Schmidt-Vizquel from the Giants for Contreras, Uribe, Brian Anderson, and SF's choice of 1 among Gload/Munoz/Diaz and one among Takatsu/Bajenaru/Vizcaino. 2. Eddie Guardado from the Mariners for Damaso Marte and whomever SF doesn't choose in the first deal. I'd be open to substituting other names, but not Sweeney, Young or BMac. 3. Aubrey Huff from Tampa Bay for 3-4 prospects, but not Sweeney, Young or BMac. I'm not sure what would interest them. Joe Borchard? Ross Gload? Vizcaino? Starting pitchers? If Huff is going to walk, I can't imagine they can get that much for him. Our starting rotation would have 4 plus pitchers: Buehrle, Garcia, Garland and Schmidt. Our bullpen would have 4 plus pitchers: Hermanson, Politte, Guardado, and Cotts. I'd have Jenks fill Takatsu's or Vizcaino's role depending on who went. And in the playoffs, El Duque would go here. (I'd carry only 10 pitchers, and bring Harris back for his speed.) We would have added 3B insurance for Crede's back. Huff could play 20 games or more at 3B and another 15 at 1B giving both Crede and Konerko a break and us another lefty bat for our lineup. And Vizquel would give us yet another lefty bat, a lot fewer outs at the bottom of the lineup, and could also cover the #1 or #2 lineup slots when we rest Pods or Iguchi. Our lineup could then have 5 solid lefties -- Pods, Vizquel, Everett, Huff, and AJ -- instead of the 3 we have now. And we'd still have Harris and/or Perez on the bench. I don't think any of these are pie-in-the-sky trade ideas, but if you think SF, Seattle, and TB could realistically demand more, then I'd be willing to increase our cost as long as we protect most of our front line prospects.

I just think it is fair to use only one Sox starter unless you have to use both.

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Jul 10, 2005 -> 07:54 PM) The only stat in there that tells you anything about a player's range (N, S, E, W) to make a play is ZR. Ok, Juggs, do you apply the same rule to CF's?? If so, Ken Griffey's .820 ZR is the worst of any major league CF playing in 2005 who qualifies. Willie Taveras of Houston is next worse at .832. Bernie Williams is at .844. Aaron Rowand is at .923, which puts him tied for 4th in the major leagues.

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Jul 11, 2005 -> 09:27 PM) I think both Rowand & Uribe are the type of players that are just happy to be on the team. They know with Ozzie they will get more playing time than on any other contending team. Juggs, I respect your opinion most of the time, but on this point I think you are completely full of it. No guy is going to be "just happy" being moved from a starting player in his mid 20's to the bench. That is the ultimate kiss of death to his career. How would you like it if your boss made a decision that cost you millions of dollars??

Since Buehrle and Garland are both starters on the same team, if I was Francona I would hold Garland as my last pitcher and use him only if the game goes extra innings. It is no reflection on Garland's abilities, but it is probably the right thing to do.

Juggernaut, from a depth standpoint, sure it is better to have backups who have been starters. But that approach cannot easily be applied to a team that cuts cost corners as much as the Chicago White Sox. Moreover, for guys like Aaron Rowand and Juan Uribe, turning them into bench role players is only a formula for dissension. These guys are young and are playing for the free agent payday they expect to achieve in a few years. If you relegate them to the bench, you've essentially given them a very significant future pay cut, and no competitive young ball player is going be happy about that. Again, I'm all for Vizquel, but I think "Mr. Potato Chip Cracky Bones," as someone called him, is not the answer in CF.

QUOTE(JUGGERNAUT @ Jul 11, 2005 -> 07:31 PM) It's mid-season so let's look at our strength's a weaknesses & who's available: Omar, Griffey Jr Omar $12.5M/3 yr deal w SFG vs Uribe $9.5M/3 yr deal w CWS. Omar is an avg hitter vs LHers & a great hitter vs RHers. Uribe is a great hitter vs LHers & a poor hitter vs RHers. Both are solid defensively. Even at 38 Omar is on par with Uribe. Griffey Jr is a great hitter vs LHers & a great hitter vs RHers. Rowand is a great hitter vs LHers & an average hitter vs RHers. You can look up the stats yourself. The greatest weakness on the team is the ability to hit & score runs off of RHers. That supercedes are apparent weakness in the bullpen. If we were to get KGJ we don't have to trade Rowand. We can keep him as insurance against KGJ's health & as a super-sub OF. This trade makes Perez expendable. Likewise if we get Omar we don't have to trade Uribe. We can keep him an insurance against Omar's age & as a super-sub IF. This trade makes Ozuna & Harris expendable. The net cost for $2005 is about $7M in additional payroll. Well within reason of a WS budget run. The new Sox lineup: Pods, Iguchi, Omar, Griffey, Thomas, Koney, Dye, AJ, Crede The new Sox bench: Widger, Everett, Gload, Rowand, Uribe That stacks up with anybody in the game including STL & the NYY. That put's us in the low 80's range. There is still a few million left for long relief help in the pen. A guy that is near starter quality that can give you 3 strong innings of relief on any given night. Of course it be expected to rest the next night. There are guys like around the league. You call them 3-4 inning starters. Prior to this year, Garland might have been considered one. Guys who usually break down in the 4th & 5th after 3 solid innings of work. That's what this team really needs the most pitching wise. Consider Sun's game. The Sox are winning 5-4 going into the 7th. The short starter type guy can get you through that inning & into the 9th for your closer. To find these guys just look at starters who have great numbers for their 1st 3 innings or first 45 pitches. They usually don't cost much to trade for. I'll scour the teams to create a list. The rotation: Buerhle, Garcia, Garland, Contra, El Duque The bullpen: solid short starter, Cotts, Politte, Hermanson, Marte/Jenks, Shingo/Vizc It's a lot better than it has been this past month. I'm with you on acquiring Vizquel, but I don't see the Sox carrying Uribe's $9 million for a utility infielder, and I don't see the Giants accepting less than Uribe in exchange. We could do better than Ozuna/Harris as utility guys, but I don't see us spending millions there. As for Griffey, the idea is completely untenable. Rowand is one of the effort guys who is a centerpiece of our current success. He hits very well with men in scoring position, and he plays a great defensive center field. And his numbers last year were better than Griffey's have been in a very long time. Give Rowand a chance. He's a better second half player and may come on like Dye has. If you want another lefty bat at least some of the time, I think the Sox should consider going after Aubrey Huff. He can spell Konerko, but he can also spell Crede. And he's another guy who is finally picking it up after a lousy beginning.

QUOTE(JimH @ Jul 11, 2005 -> 06:12 PM) This board needs to stop going off so halfcocked on all these trade scenarios, there are absolutely no reports whatsoever that I or anyone else here seems to have seen re: Aubrey Huff and the White Sox. Why do you say he is back on the radar screen? Ross Gload as a centerpiece? C'mon. Your credibility just took a whopper hit with that one, this is not the whitesox.com board. Not to mention Chuck Lamaar says both Baez and Huff fit into their 2006 plans. He is notorious for demanding a kings ransom for his players. Ross Gload? Normally I ignore posts like this but this one is way out there ... Okay, I'll admit I haven't scouted TB or what their trade demands have been in the past. But isn't Huff gone for nothing if they don't trade him in the next 2-3 weeks? They don't seem to be in a position to demand much. And Gload is a lefty 1B-OF guy like Huff who comes very cheap. I'm sure they would want prospects, but I can't imagine them getting any A-list guys. The reason Huff hasn't been on our radar screen is in part because I think KW is satisfied with Crede's defense and hasn't been looking for a backup 3B that much (despite all the earlier Randa rumblings). But with Crede showing back tightness (which might flare up again at any time) and Ozuna showing he's not ready to take over 3B on a regular basis, I would think a guy like Huff would suddenly make a lot more sense -- but not in addition to Gload. Thus, if we made a move for Huff (whatever it might take), I can't see us keeping Gload too. At least not on the major league club this year. Does that clarify?

Okay, if Aubrey Huff is back on the radar screen, should the Sox send Ross Gload to TB as the biggest part of the deal? Huff comes in and backs up Konerko and Crede for the rest of the season and gives us a tryout to see if we want to sign him instead of meeting Konerko's unreasonable demands in the offseason. Huff's not good enough defensively to hold down 3B full-time, but he's a better choice than Ozuna this year.