Two-Gun Pete

I posted over there years ago, but was banned; I think it was when KW stupidly said something to the effect that Ventura "could have been a general or admiral if he had been in the military," and as a veteran, I took offense to that. But yeah, I don't feel bad for WSI, in all honesty. They got what they wanted, in my view.

Why do posters entertain the fantasy that: 1.THIS org, with 2. THAT (snicker) frugal owner, and 3.THOSE geniuses in the front office will make that happen? He's a Boras client, and half of the league, including most of the moneyed class in MLB will be after his signature. The ownership hates giving out contracts, and much less, contracts to starting pitching. The front office bozos can't formulate a cogent argument to the frugal owner about how/when spending on FA makes sense, that is, if they can even ID a decent target to sign in the first place. The move to make was either Machado or Harper, given that there was not nearly as much competition for their signatures, full stop. I preferred Machado then, and now, though I would have been happy with either. [Cue Hahnpologists, FO Friends, and In Kenny We Trust types to fall all over themselves to attack fair criticism against JR/RH/KW in 3, 2, 1...]

Im good with pulling Giolito out of this game, as this game is probably lost, and this season is lost.

I dunno "specifically" about a saxophone. But, I just caught a Dodgers game @ Dodger Stadium. And, I forgot how much fun a full stadium, with engaged/involved fans was really like. It would be fun to have that kind of atmosphere @ the rate, but alas, it seems we're light years away from that. But insofar as encouraging fan chants, musical instruments, & the like, i think Id be ok with that.

Ok, honest question: Would you rather have Houston's or LAD's developmental staff, or the (snicker) geniuses being led by KW?

They might have, but the development staff were probably too weak and incompetent to get it to work. Or perhaps Collins isn't intelligent enough to learn anything. Either way, his selection in the draft, they way he was (snicker) "developed," and the way he was brought up are/were infuriating, IMO.

Hey, I appreciate your quoting me over and over. Quick question: What's "an incel thing?" Thanks.

This is a canard. Every team has their individual failures. But if you're going to discount their successes (and LAD's as well), you're reaching... ...unless you actually think the SOX do a good job developing players. Is this the case?

To your point, Collins doesn't hit well enough to be full time @ 1B or DH. A more competent FO/development staff (THINK: Houston or LAD) would have worked on his swing YEARS AGO to shorten it, not wait until he shat his pants in his 1st exposure to MLB pitching. Given his long swing thatll lead to piles of Ks, Collins simply HAS TO catch some/most of the time in order to be a big leaguer, IMO. Otherwise, as you said, it was a wasted pick.

Not only that, but adding Machado would have created a surplus in infielders that could haave been used to make trades for other necessities. Like SP or RF.

Nah, we shouldn't, because it's fucking moronic to do. Also, because it gives those mouth-breathing morons in the front office a pass. It also perpetuates the memory of how stoopid this team has been in recent decades. Above all else, if you're a grown ass man, you shouldn't use some stupid, cutesy bullshit to refer to one of the worst moves in White Sox history. (But what do I know? I'm not a stupid milennial.)

OK, a lot to unpack here, but I divided up your post into the 3 ideas that bear analysis, IMO. On #1, the lesson that should have been learned by this front office is to know when you have scant competition for a player's signature, and when there will be PILES of teams trying to sign a player. In the cases of Abreu and Robert, there were few suitors, and NONE among the moneyed class of MLB. For that matter, there was scant competition for Machado and Harper, but they fvkced that one up, unfortunately. Turning to THIS offseason, for Cole's signature, I can envision the yankmees, the scrubs, Atlanta, Philly, and Texas, and LAAAA all being interested, and all having more money to spend, and all being closer to competing than the SOX. Part of winning FA is identifying the player, and part of it is signability. If you've been a shitty team for a decade, AND reluctant to spend, your chances to sign top talent in FA are remote. [Unless there are few competing suitors.] On #2, I don't think that the free agencies of yesteryear are all that cogent to today's discussion, in all honesty. There are MASSIVE differences in the CBAs, for example. [Dye would have had a draft pick attached to him, were he a FA today.] There aren't NEARLY as many stupid front offices in MLB as there was when AJP was stupidly given away for free. Were it TODAY, the SFGs would have rightly tried to keep AJP to rebuild his value, THEN trade him away. As for Fisk, that was so long ago, if memory serves, he was only a FA because he came off an injury. Free agency [both MLB veterans and International FA] have long been a massive failing by this front office. Lastly, on #3, this front office crapped their pants on the pursuit of Machado. In no way was their incentives-based deal a good one for Machado. And in no way was this org worrying about a $300MM guarantee cogent, given the natural inflation of top player salaries and the $/WAR for either one. Sorry, but it was a MASSIVE fuckup, and one that will haunt this team for a long time. There won't be another 26 year old stud available in FA for YEARS. There won't be another 26 year old stud, AND none of the RICH teams interested/involved for decades. If you want to behave like a "small market team," then you'd better learn to strike when you can. This front office has earned the criticism and scorn, and we are RIGHT to pile it on them until they prove otherwise.

Im frankly stunned that this thread has been made by this particular poster, after this past offseason's FAILURE. I'm not picking on anyone when I post this, but let's put this fantasy to bed once and for all. As I see it, there are [AT LEAST] 3 reasons why this will never happen: 1. As many have posted here, they will be MANY suitors for Cole. Most will offer more money, & are better positioned to win NOW. For a player like Cole, this is important. 2. JR/KW/RH will always find a way to screw this up. They are incompetent and mentally weak. They are also more interested in the Reinsdorf family's future inheiritance. 3. Cole is a Scott Boras client. In a competitive situation, Boras uses the SOX as leverage. In my view, thinking about Cole coming here is a waste of time, in all honesty. It's a whole pile of mental masturbation.

Meh, all three of Cordell, Engel, and Tilson just suck at baseball. And all three are at/near what should be their [snicker] "primes," given them being 26-27 years old. They don't have youth on their side, and they haven't taken advantage of having a chance to play at this level. I had wanted to see what Cordell and Tilson can do, given that Adam Engel has been given [no shit] 857 MLB PAs to produce a cumulative -0.6 fWAR. But alas, neither Cordell, nor Tilson have seized the opportunity, in all honesty. And no, I don't blame Tilson for the lack of coaching that led to Eloy not knowing to defer to the CF on that play. But, what'll be entertaining [to me] is once Engel is back, how many posters will still opine, "if he can ONLY hit a little bit...."

Thanks for the kind words, sweetie. And yes, we should all use proper English at all times, & never ever criticize your family members in the front office.

No worries. Let's go ahead, & give RH & the FO participation trophies for trying hard. I agree that I've been too critical on these guys, and after all, 11 years without a post season is entirely unfair for me to expect better of this org.

Can't disagree. But, given that the SP market is gonna be competitive, & that what's currently in the rotation looks like shit, I don't want to waste service time on a guy who looks like he's gone the second he hits FA.

And I think that's a cogent thought. But, doesn't anyone in this moronathon of a fucktastic FO learn anyfuckingthing? Given the very recent experience with Moncada, couldnt someone, ANYONE take note of this, and take action? How FUCKING stupid are those assholes in the player development staff? Or, is Collins just too fucking stupid? Fuck, it's tiresome to see this FO do stupid shit. Can someone get fired, please?!?

This. I'd love to hear KW, JR, or whoever the fuck thought that shitty team/shitty roster/shitty manager had a fucking snowball's chance in hell explain exactly WTF they were [snicker] "thinking." I'm still stunned that the overwhelming majority of those same imbeciles are still in charge of this team today.

I'm not criticizing YOU, but if this was the FO's plan, then WTF are the coaches doing? In other words, if those bozos are too fucking lazy and stupid to get Collins to learn his job, their plan was to squander an option/start his service time, so that McCann [who ISN'T on the payroll as a coach] could coach Collins up? Everything about the way these imbeciles handled Collins pisses me off: The way the scouting staff talked about how they would've taken him 1-1, the lack of coaching to make his swing path more likely to make contact, the lack of a PLAN with what they were going to do with him if/when they called him up, the stupid way they wasted an option/started his service clock, the lack of FO leadership to ORDER RR to play him, the stupid and nearly concomitant signing of Reed, which made his callup an utter waste of time. Now, Collins didn't look good while he was here [nor did he look good in Charlotte, TBH], but everything about how he was brought into the org, and brought up just reeks of the ongoing incompetence from this front office. Here's hoping he can miracle his ass into becoming something of note.

Yeah, when I think about whether or not to call Robert up, I have to look at the player's readiness, where the big league team is in it's contention window, and his future contract status. While on the one hand Robert's numbers are indeed impressive, this is still his first full season in MiLB that was not disrupted by a major injury; I don't believe we'll learn much about his bat in Charlotte, but he might very well "hit a wall" later in the season. But the primary reasons why I lean on the side of "May 1st-ish" for a callup are twofold: 1. This team is nowhere near competing, due to the craptacular pitching staff. Were there at least ONE more reliable and healthy SP [and preferrably, TWO] beyond Giolito, I'd be more inclined to bringing him up now. In other words, I'd be comfortable sacrificing a year of control in 5-6 years from now if this team looked closer to contending NOW. 2. This is still the White Sox, and the owner is still [apparently] interested in keeping as much money as possible in his heirs' pockets. If they wouldn't pay the proper price for Machado, I have a hard time believing they'll pay up for an extension when Robert is in his prime. [Also, his massive signing bonus makes him unlikely to go for a team-friendly deal before then.] So, I suppose for Robert, I'm OK with them playing the "service time" game, whereas for Madrigal, given that he may be more likely to sign an extension, I'm OK with bringing him up sooner. While it may be cute to see other youngsters up early, I have no doubt that Vlad, Jr, Tatis, Moncada, and yes, Robert are GONE after their first contract. We'll see.

Holy shit, you're actually falling all over yourself to conflate the former NLCS and WS MVP, 4-time All Star, 5 time 4+ fWAR [once 5+ fWAR] Cole Hamels, to the vastly-overrated, only 1 All Star Appearance, 2-time 4+ fWAR [NEVER 5+ fWAR] James Fucking Shields? Seriously? I get that you want to defend this trade at all costs, but take the loss on this one. In NO WAY was James Shields ever an "Ace," and he was a fetid pile of shit [so stated by San Diego's owner] when this dumb front office traded for him. Dude, just stop.

Well, for me, the fucking mouthbreathing morons that infect the front office dwell on like a chancre sore on a prostitute's mouth YEARS after they should have been fired. We COULD move on, but the team hasn't "moved on" from all the imbeciles who are responsible for running this team into the ground. And though none of us here own the team, many of us have been fans longer than Hostetler, RH, KW, JR, and others have been here fucking things up. And their stupidity has attenuated the enjoyment of a team/product that is a part of our lives. Again, you are free to fall all over yourself to accept mediocrity from this front office. YMMV.

Fair enough. But "Slim" Jake Burger's [snicker] selection as a 1st round pick occurred 6 months AFTER Sale was traded, and almost 11 months AFTER the "Mired in Mediocrity" presser. He's easily a "post tank pick," and most likely, a bad one at that. But, a bad draft pick is what happens when a team refuses to fire front office types that have been BEGGING to be fired for years, due to their stupidity,

This. We the fans KNEW that team, with that roster, and that manager were not well-positioned to win. The FO should have known this, and if not, should all have been fired, full stop. The other lessons to learn were: 1. Know the difference between a good player and a bad one, and 2. Know how to actually negotiate from a position of strength when the other party's owner had already admitted that James Shields sucks.