Two-Gun Pete

Tilson very well may be terrible, but I don't think we can confirm this in only ~120 PA or so. However, on the bolded, how much more "squinting" do we have to do? In 182 MLB games/610 PA, he's given us: -1.0 fWAR, a 59 WRC+ this season, and for all of his supposed fielding prowess, he's ahead of only 1 qualified CF in the AL in DRS, last I looked on fangraphs. I think we've seen enough of what Engel is. We no longer need to "squint," IMHO. Yes, we all know their current assignments and/or statuses. But, we've seen 182 games/610 PA of Engel, and the verdict is pretty much in on him: He's not very good at baseball. I suppose that I'm looking to the AAAA OF types [to include Engel/Tilson/Delmonico/Palka/Cordell], and of these 5, only Engel has inexplicably been given this much rope to hang himself. As the higher-value OF prospects rise through the system, decisions need to be made on these AAAA OF types sooner or later. Engel's had his shot, and he isn't good enough. Tilson and Delmonico haven't had enough exposures for a full verdict to be rendered on their relative merits, IMO. And, yes, Cordell is injured, but once he isn't, I'd rather see him than Engel. To be fair, its unlikely that more than one of these guys will be rostered on the next good SOX team. But, as PA in non-competitive seasons is a finite resource, I think it's well past the time to move beyond Engel and give the others enough PA to find out what they are/aren't.

Totally agree. I think after ~610 PA, we already know what Engel is/isn't. He simply is not good enough at this level, but he's gotten more than his fair share of opportunities. Tilson may or may not be any better. But this is a waste of PAs to continue to give Engel opportunities, when we don't yet know what Tilson, Delmonico, & Cordell are/aren't. And again, this isn't really a big decision. But I think we all agree that they (once again) made the wrong decision; ongoing bad decisions are why many of us are critical of this front office.

Wait, I literally just gave you the example of Semien, who this org couldn't teach a defensive position, but who is at least cromulent in Oakland. Thats pretty much the definition of being finished elsewhere.

https://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/war/ Not really. According to fangraphs (towards the bottom OF that site) 0-1 WAR is a scrub, 1-2 WAR is a role player, 2-3 WAR is a solid starter. It's been 17 years since they've produced a regular solid starter. You may like the 0-1 WAR years we get from scrubs, but I don't.

Many of those players were "finished" elsewhere. Semien, for example, has become a cromulent defender, & a positive provider of WAR, due to the work of others in other orgs. Escobar, has finally produced a 2nd season of >2 fWAR this season. Irrespective of minutiae, this org has been bad at development. Do you disagree?

Two things: 1. Neither Yolmer, nor Anderson have YET produced more than 1 season of >replacement level WAR. (Defined as >2.0) They will likely accomplish this after 17 years of futility and stupidity after this season, assuming no injuries. 2. If all you can produce is a decent utility IF & an average SS (though he's in ascent), that isn't much of an accomplishment in 17 seasons.

I take a different view, apart from the "controllable years" issue. I note that this org has not scouted, signed/drafted, & developed their own position player prospect that later provided repeat years of >replacement level WAR since Aaron Rowand. That is to say, not in 17 freakin' years. So, I for one have long since tired of the ongoing joke of failure that has been their inability to turn a prospect into a contributor. IF this org had more success, then I might be inclined to give them more of a benefit of the doubt. But, I sincerely can't recall of a top prospect that this org gave the benefit of a full year @ the high minors (AA & AAA) in all those years since Rowand. So, why not TRY something different? Why NOT give Jimenez, et al a full season in the high minors? Aren't we as a fandom tired of failure & young players with poor baseball instincts? At the same time, exactly how can it hurt a prospect? Did it hurt Bryant to spend a whole season in AAA? OTOH, we can all recite chapter & verse of rushed prospects that later failed. Im just tired of the same, tired approach of half-developed prospects arriving in Chicago. YMMV

And I didn't use the R word. Do you want to call me the N word? Are we not allowed to fairly criticize the Front Office?

Agreed that Hahn, et al rightly receive praise for the accumulation of assets. At the same time, we can't let them off the hook when they shit the bed, IMHO. But, the development of youngsters has been a fucking running joke here, among the position players for DAMN near two decades. Add into it the failure of many of the top SP prospects to master FB control, & I think many of us are rightly concerned. (Thinking of walk machines Kopech, Gio, Fulmer, & even Rodon's inconsistency in this regard.) If Moncada and others cannot reach his potential, and/or it takes longer for them to do so, we may never reach the "finishing touches" stage.

Interesting that you're willing to admit that you sometimes want to use the N word... Go ahead & feel good about that, but I stand by my post. Everything about that move was stoopid. If it hurts you to read that many think that that move was stoopid, I apologize. But that trade was stoopid, full stop. Recommend your own metaphor to describe it as such, or defend the genius of it, if you care to do so. But I don't use the "R word," though I have been called the "N word" to my face.

Nah, they thought that THAT crappy 2016 team, with THAT crappy roster, and THAT crappy manager had a snowball's chance in hell to compete. THEN, they thought that a 33 year old SP in steep decline was the "missing piece" to help that cavalcade of bad "over the top." All of that was about as stoopid as attaching jumper cables to your nuts. Trading ANYTHING beyond salary relief to get that bad asset was as stoopid as attaching the other end of the jumper cables to a fully-charged car battery.

The entire Shields trade was a fucking travesty, and the moment anyone in that organization had the stupid idea to trade for him, they, and all their co-workers should have been fired on the spot for even thinking stupid things. It was so moronically stupid that I actually didn't believe that the rumors were real; I thought my scrubs fans buddies were messing with me, so I paid it little-to-no attention. Until it happened. About the bolded, I'm not picking on YOU, but that whole phrase is fucking stupid. This front office has earned every scrap of criticism, scorn, ridicule, and disdain that they've caused for themselves, this team, and this fandom. Using that phrase lets those imbeciles "off the hook" a bit, IMHO. I'd love whoever came up with that phrase to actually ask Hahn & KW WTF those morons were thinking, rather than using "kid gloves" on them. [If memory serves, I think it was some media type or blogger type who gives KW, Hahn, et. al a pass by inventing the bolded phrase.] On balance, I think this is why many fans here are impatient with this process: The same short-bus MFers that crapped their pants as Front Office types for nearly two decades [and gave away TATIS for a pittance] are supposed to be entrusted to un-fuck this team. Houston and the scrubs fired the morons that screwed up their teams, and brought in professionals that could actually do the job, and the results spoke for themselves. I just don't think we should be so easy on people who were too dumb to see the Tatis-for-Shields trade as being a good idea. YMMV.

How is Adam Engel not in someone's list in this thread? All winter long, I had to read on these boards what a golden god he was in CF, and how he was gonna hit...

See, I hate this idea. With Avi, we as fans and all of his team mates had to suffer through 2 1/2 seasons of him sucking out loud at baseball. Now, 5 years into his tenure as a White Sox player/prospect, we STILL don't know for sure if he's a good player or not. I have to believe that there's a better way to "coach up" the top prospects in this org. You see other orgs keep the #1 prospect in all of baseball in AAA all year, & when he comes up, Kris Bryant kicks ass & takes names, RIGHT AWAY. When was the last time this org gave a top prospect an entire year in AAA to iron out his weaknesses? I honestly can't remember. (Moncada, Anderson, Avi, Beckham, etc... were all here after less than a full season @ Charlotte.) Maybe Avi would have only had 1 or 1 1/2 seasons of suck, had he stayed in AAA longer. Maybe Moncada wouldn't have an embarassing line as a RHH if they didn't stupidly rush him up. You look around MLB, & if other teams are doing better w/their young players than we are, maybe we shouldn't stupidly rush players up. And then, maybe, just MAYBE, their adjustment period to MLB could be shorter & easier for them. We can all be patient, & hopeful for Avi. But at the same time, we can all pile the criticism, scorn, & ridicule on this stupid front office for continuing to do stupid things. Just a thought.

Japan fought like braves. Despite being under-talented compared to Belgium @ pretty much every position, they tried to actually play soccer. They didn't hide by parking a bus in front of their goal. Full credit to them, no shame in coming up short to one off the top sides in this tournament. Russia have cowardice & the refs to thank for their advancement. Id rather watch Japan play than watch Russia cower any day...

As a fan of the game with no rooting interest, I find rooting for Russia to be the equivalent of rooting for a win streak and plenty of bunts by this Sox team.

Not "high & mighty," by any means, so much as recognizing that life is short. Watch quality, not some stupid bus-parking operation.

You truly know nothing of my work as a fan. I HATED them getting stupid, meaningless wins. I HATED the Fulmer pick, because even a blind, drunk howler monkey could see that he was drafted, so that they could rush him to the bigs. I HATED how he was brought along in MiLB. And, I HATED that those dumbasses in the front office actually thought that the series of actions I cited here had a snowball's chance in hell of working. Quite the contrary, I've wanted JR to start firing people until WE get tired of seeing him fire people. I've hated the moronic "go for it every year" stupidity, and the "rush him up" stupidity. This. Totally agree, 1,000% with this. This is why I have ZERO interest in seeing either of Jimenez or Kopech until 2019.

So, you admit that Russia sucks, & that you buy into whatever story Fox feeds you as a fan? Look, I'm not picking on you, but this ain't Loyola w/Sr. Jean. What makes games "boring" is when teams can't/won't come forward. Bus-parking operations is what non-soccer fans and baby boomers think of when they b**** about soccer. THAT is exactly what Russia is right now. No one will look back with fondness on their deathbed, thinking, "man that Russia team was good, I'm glad I spent hours of my finite time on earth watching them pack the back." At least, no neutrals or non-Russian fans.

"Brah" just looks wrong. No one says "Brahs before hoes," do they? And where does "brah" come from anyway? That said, I could give not a whit about them "playing shitty baseball" right now. And yes, we all know its a rebuild. IMHO, these points do not need to be mentioned, because we all already know these things, so they're not all that cogent to a discussion. But it has been a decade since the last division winner, and it has been 17 years since Aaron Rowand came up through the system, and became the last regularly-productive position player to come up from the system that I can remember off the top of my head. [Sure, there was Avi's BaBIP-fuelled lucky 2017, and Beckham's lucky rookie season, but no regularly-productive types of note that I can remember.] We as a fandom have been more than patient with this front office. The fastest way to get to winning again is to stop doing stupid things as an organization. You know, make good decisions, instead of bad ones. If Moncada busts [not saying that he is], it sets this org back by years, IMO. And if they can't get someone as talented as Moncada to be better than a .692 OPS, who CAN they turn into a productive player? But hey, if you like it, cool. YMMV.

Agreed. Spain lost this game, and I knew it was going to happen, too. We all laugh about the refs, but remember that this is still Russia, the folks who gave you the "urine glory hole" in the Sochi olympics. What's worse is that Spain had as good a chance as any to make the final, but for this turd of a game.

OK, I'm game: 1. Exactly what about Russia's national team is noteworthy, memorable, or worth watching? 2. You b**** about tiki-taka, but what about Russia's playing style is in any way appealing? [And before you answer, remember that we are all finite beings, with indeterminate and limited time left on Earth.] As a neutral fan, I'd rather watch quality, because I don't have all day and all night to watch a bus-parking operation. If I wanted that, I can always go to Toyota Park for a fire game. Life is short. Watch quality, rather than some ginned-up media meme, I say.

No, not mad, "brah." [BTW milennials, why is it "brah," rather than "bro?" The former reads like the chest restrictive device that women wear, while the latter looks more correct to me...] Full apologies for being a fan. And, you know, for being sick of the cavalcade of failure that is this front office. And no, no one's "b****ing whining and complaining," just pointing out this Front Office's failure. You may like that they've turned a HOF SP in Chris Sale into a walk machine in Kopech and a K machine in Moncada, but for my favorite team, I'd prefer that they stop doing stupid shit. Beyond the stupid rushing of Moncada, one has to ask what they teach in the system. After all, Moncada's .149 BA as a RHH may be cool for you, but I'm pretty sure we can find a few fat slobs in the stands to be as equally [in]effective as he is. And seeing Collins have to "fix himself" by disregarding any coaching he got makes me doubt that they have any idea of what they're doing. But again, YMMV.

OK, so turn off the FOX commentators for a second. The man had TWO ASSISTS against France. Exactly how is that "struggling," other than Fat Tony Meola deciding that it was? If the back 6 of Argentina had any heart, brains, or guts, Messi would have been the Man of The Match, and Argentina would have gone through. Are you surprised? Totally saw this coming, because the ref doesn't want to die. Why do people actually WANT Russia to go through? They did what they needed to do to go through, and Spain helped them. I'd much rather watch Spain than Russia on any given matchday.

Disagreed. Argentina's back 6 (4 defenders & 2 holding mids ) gave it up like a $10 whore. This game was there for Argentina to win, if: 1. Di Maria bothers to track back for France's 2nd goal, & 2. The Argentine defense can learn to clear their own area for goals #3 & 4. On balance, Argentina's failure was one of poor organization, & a lack of fight from all but Messi & Mascherano today. By contrast, Uruguay look well organized, & look to all be pullingfrom the same end of the rope. France would be foolish to underrate them. See, I don't get this. Why would you celebrate the two best players' not being in this thing? Life is short, & if I'm going to watch a game, I prefer to watch excellence. YMMV.