Two-Gun Pete

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Mar 4, 2017 -> 08:01 AM) 1. Also you called him oft injured. I don't view that as accurate. He did have a DL stint when he tripped on the dugout stairs but can you name others times ? 2. He will be at or near 30 when he becomes a free agent. 3. If you get 6-12 WAR for a 3 year period that is a very valuable player and I consider it a core piece. 1. He's injured right now. He can't even get through Spring Training, because of an arm issue, or a tummy ache, or God knows whatever is causing him to have to "go slow" at the tender age of 24. 2. He actually will be 28 when Boras has him sign elsewhere. 3. 6-12 WAR over 3 years is a wide spread. 2 WAR/year is "just a guy," or an average starting MLB player, or roughly what Rodon has been hereto fore. 4 WAR/year is very much a difference maker, a stud, or slightly less than early Chris Sale as a SP or slightly less than what Quintana is now. Clumping the Gavin Floyds & Carlos Rodons together with the Chis Sales and Jose Quintanas over rates our now-injured SP, IMO. YMMV. And, I have to re-state that I was very much a fan when he was drafted, & I very much want him (and ALL Sox players) to do well. I simply don't get why he's considered by fans to be a core player.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Mar 3, 2017 -> 11:15 PM) Even I recognize that you are going to have to give these kids time. Let me put it this way. Giolitto was drafted two years before Rodon was. Is anyone ready to declare him not important? Didn't think so. But there's a difference in how we as Sox fans see the two SPs: The oft-injured, 2-ish fWAR, Boras client is on the banner here, and many here regard him as untradeable. The shiny-new prospect is viewed as part of the future of the rotation. I hope that both are the future, but (at present) neither are irreplaceable.

QUOTE (Sox Fan In Husker Land @ Mar 3, 2017 -> 11:13 PM) Is Carlos Rodon an ace currently, no? Does he have the potential to be one, you bet. Will we see Rodon make a huge jump this year? Not sure. If he keeps improving, he will be a solid 2 at worst with the potential to be an ace. As noted by others in the 2nd half in 2016, Rodon went 73 IP, 3.45 ERA, 3.49 FIP, 1.22 WHIP, 9.49 K/9, 2.71 BB/9, 0.99 HR/9. If he can pitch near 200 innings, and maintain what he did in the 2nd half last year he will be around a 4+ fWAR pitcher at age 24, with 4 years of team control remaining. He would be insanely valuable. If he has an awesome season this or next, and the Sox don't see him as part of the rebuild, then he is another piece to flip for more prospects. I just don't get some of the disdain for Rodon. He was rushed to the majors very quickly, and has shown improvement along the way. Here's the rub: Was it actual "improvement" in the 2nd half of last season, or was it stat padding in garbage time last season? We will see. Any Sox fan whose been around long enough has seen the fools hold of previous garbage time heroes of seasons past; accordingly, I'm suspicious of a player that was "meh" for most of last season, got injured, then got fat in garbage time. Like David Price, if he does end up being good, he won't re-sign with the team that drafted him. And like David Price, he's injured. Again. This can't be understated. If, at the tender age of 24, he can't even get through spring training, how will he ever provide 200IP, like an actual core member of a starting rotation?

QUOTE (maxjusttyped @ Mar 3, 2017 -> 09:50 PM) If the Sox didn't expect to be competitive in offering Boras clients their 2nd contract, I highly doubt they would have taken Rodon #3 or targeted Giolitto via trade. Just because they won't be able to sign Rodon to a ludicrously friendly team contract doesn't mean it's a given he'll never sign an extension or leave in free agency if/when he gets the opportunity to do so. I put zero stock into a front office that stupidly traded for James Shields, & hired Robin Ventura, & tried to keep Cris Sale as a reliever. This is a group not well-regarded for their foresight, so until they actually extend a Boras client, I have history on my side. And because of this long-standing history, we should reserve the right to doubt the guys that drafted Mitchell instead of Trout. To assume otherwise with respect to this Front office and that agent would be foolish, IMO.

QUOTE (Tony @ Mar 3, 2017 -> 09:50 PM) You are arguing with yourself. For some reason, you have created a scenario where the Sox have to identify Rodon as a "core player" this instance, or everything goes up in smoke. Not at all. I'm speaking more to the perception among this fanbase. Look, he's on the banner here, and we routinely have posters regarding Rodon as untradeable, as he's part of this team's core. Never did I call him "bad." Never did I state that the Sox have to identify him as anything, despite your post to the contrary. I'm asking posters to convince me that a mediocre SP, whose once again hurt, and repped by Boras is a "core player."

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Mar 3, 2017 -> 09:34 PM) That depends. Possible new owner at that time = Possible new attitude with dealing with the agent who routinely represents the premium talent around baseball We all dream of this. But, I'm not counting on that happening. Assuming that ownership & the Front Officr are as they are now, Rodon's as good as gone, IMO.

QUOTE (maxjusttyped @ Mar 3, 2017 -> 09:32 PM) poor pitch framing costing Rodon 14 runs last season, which isn't baked into his fWAR, ERA, etc. He's already established that his baseline is a mid-rotation SP, projects as a ~3+WAR pitcher would earn close to 20M per year on the FA market. Guys like that don't exactly grow on trees. Agreed that craptacular framing has hurt him to a degree. But a 3 WAR player/mid-rotation guy doesn't = a "core player" to me. A team needs the 2WAR & 3 WAR guys in a roster. But those guys aren't essential to a team the way a stud like Sale or Quintana can be. So far, I can agree that Rodon is just "a guy," but not much else than that. (When he's healthy, that is...)

QUOTE (Tony @ Mar 3, 2017 -> 09:30 PM) While I don't agree with your premise, I'll play along. What if he isn't considered part of the core then? What does that change over the next three years during his time here? If he's bad, as you say, the Sox aren't going to get a ton of value for him. If he continues to improve like many in the industry project, his value increases and the Sox have a number of different routes to take with him. First of all, I've never said Rodon is "bad," but rather "mediocre." Given his talent, Id consider that a bit of a disappointment. Given his slider that he has, one would anticipate him being better than he has been so far. I suppose Id consider a "core player" to be essential to a team's fortunes. I don't see that at all in this player. So, convince me. (And again, I never called him "bad.")

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Mar 3, 2017 -> 09:03 PM) Not every top prospect comes up like Chris Sale and instantly dominates. Rodon has improved and improved, and had a very strong finish to the season last year. He has ace potential. 2.0 fWAR in 2015 to 2.7 fWAR in 2016 isn't really a quantum leap. And he's hurt. Again. Set aside his draft position, & consider what he is, not what we hope him to be. He was, by one metric, equal to Miguel Gonzalez last year, even with him padding his stats in garbage time late last year. And his agent is dying for him to sign elsewhere. Why is he a core player? He may not be good, & even if he will be, he probably won't be a part of the next good Sox team.

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Mar 3, 2017 -> 08:54 PM) You're kidding...right? Not at all. I was a big fan when he was drafted. (Big-time slider, high draft position, etc...) However, look @ what he actually is as a player. He's been injured every year. He struggled with control for much of the year, although he did look good in garbage time last year. He's been good for 2.0 & 2.7 fWAR, the latter of which was exactly the same as Gonzalez provided in 30 fewer IP. But all that aside, there is no way in God's Green Earth that he'll re-sign here with Boras as his agent. So why should we as a fandom look at an oft-injured, mediocre-performing, Boras client as a core player? If he improves, he's gone. If he stays the same as he is now, he's a middling player. (2.7 fWAR ain't great)

Help me understand something: Rodon's been pretty mediocre so far in his career; where some see promise in his Sept/Oct results last year, I see a "garbage time hero." He's been a bit of a China Doll so far in his career, with injuries in every season sidelining him, and now whatever this latest issue may be... He's represented by Greed Incarnate, who will never ever agree to a contract extension here. Why is Rodon considered to be a part of this team's core again? Thanks in advance.

QUOTE (miracleon35th @ Mar 1, 2017 -> 02:10 AM) The sooner Collins and Moncada are brought up, the sooner they start getting the experience they need. Minor league experience is overrated and can be counterproductive to players who can get too comfortable there and accustomed to lower expectations and an inferior level of competition. Collins can catch a few games here and there and get major league at bats as a platoon LH DH or pinch hitter. Moncada can share time with Saladino. The rebuilding process involves trading veteran players and bringing up the top prospects to see if they can compote at this level and to gain major league experience. Sorry, but you're just flat-out wrong about rushing prospects up. The second you bring a player up is the second he's on his way to becoming a FA, IF he becomes a legit MLB caliber player. The business side of the game involves keeping as many of your young, talented players under control for as long as possible. This is particularly true for a thrifty org like JR's White Sox. Thus, to waste a f***ing BILLISECOND of MLB service time on "development" is dumb, given the CBA. Better to maximize service time, & bring up players when they are as close to being finished products as possible. Again, if Moncada & Collins are legit, they probably aren't going to re-sign here. (Watch what happens when Rodon hits FA.) What's more, the team will suck out loud, & the Sox are still in the "disposal/distribution" phase of the rebuild. Q, Robertson, Melky, Frazier, and others need to be out the door before Id even dream of bringing any of the youngsters up. YMMV.

QUOTE (miracleon35th @ Feb 28, 2017 -> 09:01 PM) Zack Colliins, as a Left handed DH and third string catcher would make some sense. Matt Davidson as a Right Handed DH second string third basemen might also make some sense. Holy crap, are you serious? Firstly, Davidson sucks out loud at baseball. He never was an MLB-caliber player, and he never will be. More importantly, you want to rush Collins, who hasnt even proven himself beyond 150 or so PA @ A+, into a team thats probably going to suck? Why? If he'd be good this year, all that would accomplish is to waste his controllable years on bad teams. More likely, he'd be bad, & a perfectly good prospect would likely be ruined. Why not bring up Moncada, too, right?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 20, 2017 -> 02:43 PM) Except that Hahn has spent the winter trying to trade both Robertson and Frazier. But with all of this hyperbole, I wouldn't let that get in the way of a good rant? And yet, both Frazier & Robertson are still here, rebuilding their trade values, whereas Swisher was dumped for a pile of poo. Exactly how was the previous post a "rant?" And where did I exaggerate to the point of "hyperbole? "

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 19, 2017 -> 01:14 PM) So he was just horrible , a square peg. But KW should never have rid himself of him. Hindsight is quite a thing. And straw man arguments are quite a thing as well. Literally no one made the argument as you are attempting to phrase it. Yes, Swisher was forced into roles that probably lessened his effectiveness as a player. Do you disagree? But no, NO ONE said that KW "never should have rid himself" of Swisher. KW stupidly sold low on Swisher after his worst season, instead of retaining him long enough to rebuild his value. And you were even supplied with an example of this in Robertson. DA, when you stay off the hyperbole & straw man arguments, you're a heck of a poster. You don't need to do that.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 19, 2017 -> 11:18 AM) Most of Soxtalk loved the trade. Swisher was a power guy high OBP. His only year with the Sox, they did win the division . While all of this may vary varying degrees of truthiness to it, I had my doubts about Swisher. He was primarily a 1B & corner OF prior to coming here. And though he had a decent OBP record, he was never a leadoff man. I suspected that Ozzie would "Square Peg" Swisher into roles in the field & in the lineup to which he was not ideally suited. In the end, KW had to "fix" the mistake of acquiring Swisher by getting the desiccated remains of Junior to play CF. And sure, the SOX won the division, but by then Swisher was riding pine. To top it all off, KW stupidly gave him away for a pile of poo, rather than keeping him here long enough for him to recoup some trade value. (As Hahn is rightly doing now with Robertson.) Long story short, he was the wrong player at the wrong time for the wrong team at the wrong price.

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Feb 19, 2017 -> 02:36 AM) You Make Me Vomit? Ha! Your Mileage May Vary. I know that the "he didn't give up much" meme is deeply ingrained in this fanbase, but its an idea that needs to be forgotten, IMO.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Feb 18, 2017 -> 09:15 AM) When Gio Gonzalez is literally the best play you've traded away, I think you're doing OK. Im not picking on you when I post this. But, the old, tired line of, "But he didn't give up much" is silly/dumb at best, and buyer's remorse at worst. Its silly because that line of thought willingly ignores the team's status before the trade. It ignores whether the player acquired was the right one to acquire. And, it ignores the opportunity cost lost to other, perhaps more opportune trade options. (In another example, stupidly trading away value for Jeff Samardzjia when the team and manager are garbage is stooopud, even if one clings to the "didn't give up much" meme.) IMO, the first swisher trade was dumb because KW acquired the wrong player at the wrong time for the wrong reasons. Swisher was never a CFer. He was never a good leadoff man, even though Ozzie threw him outin CF/had him leadoff. Most of all, that '08 team, for all the fond game 163 memories, was not good enough to win anything. (With or without Swisher. ) And so, it was a pointless trade in which KW gave up value and got little to show for it in return. Not only was Gonzalez lost in this trade, but there was also an opportunity cost to making a bad trade at an inopportune time. Perhaps Gonzalez, et.al could have been traded for a better option at a better time. Or perhaps Gonzalez could have provided 3 WAR/year here instead of elsewhere. The second Swisher trade was yet another iteration of KW being utterly unable to extract any value in return for a decent player. What was the best piece out of that trade, Wilson Betemit? Marquez? What a f***ing joke. Whether or not KW or Hahn "give up too much" in trade matters. But whether or not a trade should happen in the first place matters just as much, if not more. (Right, James Shields? ) Taken together, the two Swisher trades hurt this organization, when neither trade needed to happen, IMO. YMMV.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but the two Swisher trades have to be among the dumbest trades of KW's tenure, right? (And that's a high bar, IMO...)

QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 12, 2017 -> 10:41 AM) What he has done is try different ways to keep baseball from becoming a "he has the most money wins." (Look, I respect you, & I think you're a good poster, but) LOL, wut???? Much of JR's actions have been driven by him being self-serving and personally greedy: 1. Sportsvision. This was ALL about getting EVERY LAST PENNY out of you & me, without adding not one iota of value to the product or to you or I, the paying customer. 2. Everything about New Comiskey Park, from trying to swindle the taxpayer, to trying to get it built on his own land, to threatening to move, to pushing costs to build it onto the hotel industry, to the s***ty design was all about him getting the MOST MONEY for himself. 3. Colluding to pay less to players was a way to pay others less, while keeping more for himself. 4. Not competing in the international market for decades, and not competing with draft signing bonuses was again, a way to pay others less. 5. Moving the MiLB affiliates as close as possible to each other was, again, a way to do things on the cheap. 6. The lockout was a scheme intended to pay others less. 7. The White Flag Trade was the right thing to do, but his public response to the trade was self-serving. 8.Never competing for the top FAs, going back to Albert Belle. 9. Keeping an incompetent team president employed, likely because he's either too cheap, or that KW is a livng reminder of JR once having been a younger man. (And JR having taken a personal role in chasing KW as a draftee.) [EDIT] 10. Despite having easily the best lease in north American sports, the cost to attend games is routinely among the most expensive in MLB, as an effort to suppress attendance, thus lowering/eliminating any rent to pay, all while having an inferior product in most seasons. Now, JR's done all of this, and more, all while losing much more than this team has won. We're also expected as taxpayers and paying customers to be OK with his personal greed on the one hand, and at the same time, accept this club operating like a small market team on the other hand. By contrast, at a minimum, the DeBartolos may have been greedy, but at least they passed their thievings onto their paying customers with the 49ers. Neither JR, nor Ilitch deserve praise as owners of their MLB clubs, in all honesty, IMO. And ive yet to see any evidence of JR making this anything other than an exercise to get HIM the most, or to pay others less.

This thread needs Con Te Giolito, his deluge of posts, and his pants-pissing routine that assumes that Q will SURELY get injured if he isn't traded NOW for any meager pittance. Whatever happened to that guy?

QUOTE (ptatc @ Feb 12, 2017 -> 09:54 AM) I worked for deBartolo at one of the local racetracks. It was later purchased by Steinbrenner. All of them were into the gambling scene. The DeBartolo's were the only ones convicted of felony bribery. As long as they win all is forgiven, i guess. And JR was involved in colluding to illegally suppress player salaries, so it isn't as though JR is a saint, either. YMMV.

QUOTE (WBWSF @ Feb 12, 2017 -> 09:36 AM) 1) Sportsvision. 2) Turning down a brand new stadium in the South Loop at Roosevelt + Clark built by the City of Chicago. He wanted a new stadium built in Addison on land that he owned. 4) JR changed the design of the new stadium because he wanted another level of suites. This has ruined the upper deck and ruined the image of the park. 5) 5 Playoff appearances in 36 years. 6) He just traded his 2 best players for prospects for unproven players Also: 7) 1 playoff appearance in 12 years. Despite this, only Ozzie & Ventura have lost their jobs. 8) Ran a highly popular announcer out of Comiskey (Caray), which simultaneously hurt the Sox, & helped the scrubs. 9) Removed all semi-local MiLB affiliates (south bend ), further hurting the Sox regional presence, & simultaneously helping others build a brand & a presence in the region. 10) Moved all affiliates to a part of the country that will never be SOX fans, all in the name of making it cheaper to operate. 11) Underinvested in draft signing bonuses & in the scouting department, & only increasing his investment when MLB came up with a slotting system. 12) Despite having a running joke of a system in terms of position players, Laumann & Bell & KW have jobs for life. And I'm sure I forgot some as well, but I'll leave it to others to add on.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Feb 7, 2017 -> 10:01 AM) Tim Anderson should leadoff so he gets the most at-bats. Ok, I have to ask the group exactly why should a guy who hates to walk and Ks a lot should leadoff? Hell, Depth Charts has him pegged for a craptacular. 298 OBP this year. I fully get that they're not going to win this year, and they're not trying to win. But a low OBP guy atop your lineup is, at best, an un-ideal use of your talent, and at worst, bad lineup construction. In either case, I think there's a non-zero chance that both Tilson and Anderson fail to OPS above the Beckham Line of .680 this year.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Feb 5, 2017 -> 12:35 PM) I don't foresee a situation where any outcome of this rebuild could possibly result in something that could take us " right back into that same place as then". By "then" I presume you mean a scenario where we find the Sox with a core that looks very similar to the one Hahn is currently selling off, one that a series of "desperate trades" and "signings" orchestrated by Hahn, Williams and Reinsdorf in the past several years failed to turn into a championship-caliber ball club. Without any depth in quality on the player position side, and a relatively strong pitching staff, the team could look very much like the one that Hahn is trying to sell off. God forbid if Anderson's low OBP tendencies continue, or if Moncada busts. Because should either of these things occur (however unlikely you may believe them to be), the team would look a lot like it was prior to this recent turn of strategies. On balance, I'm not at all concerned that Q is still here. I support Hahn not dropping his price, and I agree that the centrepiece of a trade of Q must be a highly-regarded position player, regardless of position. Trading for more pitching is a fool's errand, because we've all seen how that movie ends.