Two-Gun Pete

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Jan 31, 2017 -> 09:52 AM) It would be great if Moncada turns into a star, but even if he doesn't the Sox approach is going to make them a competitive team. I don't know I we can say this with 100% certainty, at least not yet. There are questions about some of these prospects, and there are questions about some of the young players already in the roster. I think its been a good START to a rebuild, but a lot of things still have to go right. While I agree that Hahn should not reduce his asking prices for the vets he may trade away, I think that he's got to land some more position player prospects in trade. Otherwise, we're right back where we were, with an inept lineup preventing a solid pitching staff from competing. Moreover, having an abject lack of depth in position player prospects created a market inefficiency that lead to desperate trades, signings, and a virtual lost decade+ since '05. Without some additional depth added NOW, we could be headed right back into that same place as then.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jan 24, 2017 -> 09:55 AM) 21. Micker Adolfo OF 25. Matt Davidson 3B 28. Corey Zangari 1B I've seen no mention of Willy Garcia anywhere. Kind of surprising. Hey, thanks for putting together a list. At least we all have something real to discuss, since it seems as though there won't be any more trades until midseason. That said, 1. I agree about Willy Garcia, he should be somewhere in these lists, IMHO. 2. The three guys above (Adolfo, Davidson, & Zangari) are all strikeout losers who are unlikely to amount to anything. As a Sox fan, I hope that they all have miracle seasons as Trayce Thompson did in 2015, so that Hahn can sucker some other org into giving us real value in exchange for them. 3. People keep lauding Marco Paddy who his work, yet 5 years into his tenure, I don't see a lot of his signees in these lists, or in the big club, or doing much of anything. Hell, Adolfo & his pile of Ks & frequent injuries are used to praise Paddy, yet Adolfo sucks out loud. Why does Parry get a pass?

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 8, 2017 -> 09:22 AM) Avi spent a lot of time roping liners throughout the minors while young for his level almost every step of the way. Take a look at his minor league stats they are quite impressive, this dude doesn't even come close to Avi's minor league production. http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playe...amp;position=OF Yeah, Avi sucked in 2009, 2010, & 2011, with wrc+ below 100 in every stop. Then, in 2012, he had his miracle "career year," with wrc+ >100, & a cup of coffee in the bigs. Just in time for the geniuses in the Sox front office to stupidly "buy high." I for one was not surprised that he's sucked out loud with the Sox. (But, Two-Gun Pete, his TOOLS! TOOLS!) http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playe...amp;position=OF Willy Garcia's wrc+ has exceeded 100 in most cases, which suggests he's been an above average bat in most stops. This is not to state that Willy can be an average bat in The Show, but the track record is there. We'll see.

QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 8, 2017 -> 09:57 AM) Tim Anderson won't be going back to Charlotte. I certainly don't trust this org to not screw this up. Until they successfully produce a homegrown hitter, every youngster is suspect in my view. That said, his first stint in The Show was promising, and we're all excited about that. But then, Beckham's first stint was exciting, as was Josh Fields', as was Thompson's. So, while I'm hopeful for Anderson, we've also been lied to by this org about 10,000 times or so about youngsters. We'll see. I still wouldn't feel comfortable cutting any IFers until we are sure that both Anderson and Moncada have the right stuff.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 8, 2017 -> 10:32 AM) Pretty crazy the Cubs were able to sign both Jimenez & Torres in the same class. They were the #1 & #3 ranked prospects according MLB.com. The #2 was none other than Micker Adolfo. Funny that the one time we were able to land a big fish in Latin America it turns out to be the wrong guy. Yes, Im shocked, SHOCKED that the same geniuses that picked Mitchell instead of Trout would have gotten this wrong! As an aside, color me unimpressed with this org's/Marco Paddy's work hereto fore. While other orgs reap the benefits of the international market, FIVE YEARS after him coming on board, I don't recall any of his signings having made it above AA. (And no, I don't consider a vet like Abreu to be the same as a youngster in the international market.) QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 8, 2017 -> 10:39 AM) Is it the wrong guy or an indictment on the White Sox ability to develop young hitters? I think this is an indictment on this org's scouting priorities in the past. It's been toolsy athlete types, or raw power strikeout losers or speedy types that had been prioritized for the majority of KWs tenure. To me, it seems academic: Get guys that don't make outs, instead of strikeout losers or speedy types or kids who look good in a uniform. Get actual baseball players to play baseball. Now, Hostetler smartly (and @ long last) prioritized OBP, and finally, it looks like there may be a few pieces in the pipeline. Here's hoping this continues, and that they prioritize OBP in player acquisition.

QUOTE (TheFutureIsNear @ Jan 6, 2017 -> 02:34 PM) With Anderson, Frazier, Sally, Sanchez, and Davidson likely to have 25 man roster spots already I wonder if they view Asche as added IF/LF depth at a fraction of the price to Lawrie? I can't see any team trading for Lawrie, and giving him AB's at this point is pretty useless. I take the contrary view: 1st and foremost, Matt Davidson sucks out loud at baseball. His horrific K rate in AAA screams this to anyone who sees his fangraphs page. 2nd, I don't take it as a given that Anderson won't regress, and perhaps need a trip down to Charlotte. His historical K rates and O swing % suggest that he may struggle. 3rd, I haven't seen anything that indicates that Saladino is healthy. 4th, Frazier may yet be traded, 5th, Lawrie isn't all that expensive, and has proven more in the bigs than Asche; giving away value isn't a good way to go durng a rebuild. 6th, I want to give this stupid front office ZERO reasons to bring Moncada up even a billisecond before he's good and ready. In sum, yeah, Lawrie isn't much. But cutting him is a stupid idea. OTOH, Avi is here to help this team secure a high draft pick, so he too should be kept.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jan 3, 2017 -> 12:25 AM) Personally, I don't see a role on this team for Lawrie if we can't trade Frazier this offseason (and Saladino is healthy). In such a scenario, I'd simply trade or cut him near the end of spring training. I'd have to think someone would take a flier on Brett at his reasonable salary. Could it be that (internally) this front office believes that there is a non-0% chance that Tim Anderson regresses in 2017? Given Anderson's proclivity to strike out, I think its possible that Lawrie is still here because neither Anderson, nor Saladino, nor Sanchez are certainties. And should Anderson struggle, they may want to have the luxury of sending him down, while keeping Moncada in Charlotte. At the same time, if Frazier is traded, "someone" has to play 3b until a permanent replacement can be secured.

QUOTE (beautox @ Jan 2, 2017 -> 03:35 PM) I'm torn on this because I too want to see if Davidson have a future on the white sox in the infield or on the bench. QUOTE (Con te Giolito @ Jan 2, 2017 -> 03:51 PM) ...the Sox need his AB's to see what Saladino and perhaps Davidson have. I don't have a huge opinion either way with trading or keeping Frazier. But why do so many posters want to see a strikeout loser like Davidson? He sucks out loud at baseball, and I think he just struck out while I was posting this. Trade Frazier or keep him; play or move Saladino or Sanchez, its all good. But there's really nothing to see in a career K commando like Davidson, IMHO.

QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 16, 2016 -> 02:43 PM) Have at me! OK, since you asked... QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 16, 2016 -> 02:43 PM) 1 Yoan Moncada... ...11 Dane Dunning I think most would have the top 10 or 11 somewhat similar, albeit with some variances in order. What I think is more open to discussion is the rest of a Top 30, given an overall lack of depth in quality prospects. That said, I’ll focus on a few names that I would call into question: QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 16, 2016 -> 02:43 PM) 13 Trey Michalczewski 18 Micker Adolfo I suppose that right off the bat, I’d get into the “tools vs. numbers” discussion. For me, “tools” can get a player drafted or signed. They can give a player more of the “benefit of the doubt” if/when a player has a disappointing season or half-season. But, once a player has been in an organization for awhile, to me, the NUMBERS rule, and “tools” can lie to you. With these two players, I’d say that Michalczewski is still a prospect, but just barely in a Top 30, whereas Adolfo is [currently] not a prospect until his numbers show any signs of life. They both have obese K-rates that generally lead to a prospect busting, but with Michalczewski, he’s shown something of a pulse at the dish, and actually after the “big jump” from A+ to AA. OTOH, Adolfo has divided his time between being injured, and striking out in the low minors. For now, he’s not a prospect, and I don’t give a rat’s ass about his supposed “tools” or however much the team squandered on his signing bonus. That said, Adolfo is young enough to where his prospect status could conceivably recover, but a 33% K rate in low A in a player’s 3rd professional season does NOT scream “prospect” to me. QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 16, 2016 -> 02:43 PM) 24 Seby Zavala 25 Corey Zangari With these two, I don’t know why they get paired together on a lot of lists, other than they came into the org in the same draft, and their surnames both begin with “Z.” One showed an average wRC+ at a primarily DEFENSIVE position in low A. The other is a strikeout commando with a grotesque ~43% K rate in low A, and what’s worse, at a prime OFFENSIVE position. To me, this means that one of these is not like the other, in that Zavala may have a chance to advance, whereas Zangari has to cut his K rate in half to have a snowball’s chance in hell. [Haven't we heard this before with Sox "prospects?"] Here again, I’d perhaps keep Zavala in the mid-to-low 20s in a list, but drop Zangari into the “Just missed” category; His youth, tools, and inexperience in the professional game being the only things that prevents Zangari from dropping into the Keon Barnum Zone® for busted prosepcts. QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 16, 2016 -> 02:43 PM) 19 Rymer Liriano 20 Adam Engel 28 Jacob May Just missed: Charlie Tilson I have a hard time making heads or tails out of these four OFers comparable rankings on a lot of lists. Two out of the four have made The Show, but they appear on opposite ends of this foursome. From my view, Tilson’s got a SIGNIFICANTLY better chance to provide positive WAR at the MLB level than the other 3 OF here, even though he may be just a 4th OF @ his ceiling. [because he looks like he can actually get on base.] With Liriano, I’ll grant that he’s got better "overall tools” than Tilson, but Tilson’s got the better tool in the most important part of a player’s game: HITTING. For Engel and May, they likewise have the better overall tools than Tilson, but May hasn’t been the same player since his injury. Nor has May shown the same sort of results in the high minors as he did from Rookie through A+ ball. By contrast, Engel hasn’t been allergic to walks, and his bat has shown some life in the high minors. Neither one has shown contact skills that are near to what Tilson looks to have, which is why I regard these two as lesser prospects than Tilson. Overall, I’d probably put Tilson ahead of the other 3, and all should climb in a Top 30, given that neither Zangari, nor Adolfo, nor Adams belong in a Top 30, and Michalczewski would slide down towards the bottom of a Top 30. QUOTE (NorthSideSox72 @ Dec 16, 2016 -> 02:43 PM) 17 Spencer Adams Just missed: Tyler Danish I don’t know why both of these two wouldn't be in the “Just missed” category on a list, given their relatively pedestrian K/9 rates. I do know that whoever decided to bring up Danish last year did the young man a terrible disservice. I also don’t know why a youngster like Adams has not been allowed the courtesy of having an entire year at one level since 2014. Both of these look like Nick Capra Specials™, in that they’ve been perhaps pushed too quickly. With the recent additions of all the highly-rated pitching prospects in the Sale/Eaton trades, I don’t see the harm in letting them learn in Birmingham for all of 2017, and perhaps salvage whatever value they still have. On balance, this looks a LOT healthier list overall, although this is an org that still lacks depth among the hitters. Here’s hoping that some more are on the way in trade, AND that Hostetler continues to place a premium on OBP at the draft.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Dec 11, 2016 -> 10:45 PM) Can you think of ONE example of a white sports executive that you would question their "intellectual capacity" to do the job...based on their not finishing school or it being the time of Prop 48? @ Due to the fact that approximately 85-90% of the Big 4 sports GM positions are populated by white front office execs, it should be quite easy. Ok, let's try this again: Who brought up race, you or me? Feel free to go back and check. As they say in math class in school, "show your work." EDIT: And I'll go first, since you asked. I think Larry Bird is stupid, and a poor executive, in part because he has a low degree of education.

On balance, if the returns aren't there for Q, im perfectly comfortable holding onto him until an absolute Tsunami of high-end prospects are dropped into Hahn's lap in trade. Im also comfortable with signing a couple middling veteran SPs, so as to block Giolito and Kopech from breaking camp with the big club. (Or, until Kopech/Giolito FORCE a promotion, and/or trades for Q & Gonzalez can be had.) Kenny's always liked Edwin Jackson and John Danks... I would welcome them back, so as to assure a #1 overall pick, and to keep the youngsters in Charlotte for a few months.

QUOTE (2005thxfrthmmrs @ Dec 11, 2016 -> 09:44 AM) Trolling so hard... Not at all. Did you bother to read the fangraphs piece in the original post? Did you read (in horror) his crappy K rates and BB rates? Did you see his O-swing and swing % rates? Im guessing that you didn't. In any case, I certainly hope im wrong about Anderson. But I think many here have an irrational exuberance about him, simply because he didn't s*** his pants once he was called up. I'll agree that he's much more promising than the overarching majority of position players from the Laumann/Capra era. But there is real downside risk to him regressing, based on what he's been in MiLB, IMO & in Fangraphs opinion.

QUOTE (3GamesToLove @ Dec 9, 2016 -> 08:48 AM) Yeah, I'm not crazy high on Anderson. I think he can be an average major league regular, which is a coup for the Sox considering their track record in developing position players, but I think it's misguided to talk about him as a future star. Im not high on Anderson, either. I think he's just another strikeout commando, which will lead him to peak as a middle infield bench player. Sure, he can catch, and he can run. But that will mean exactly Jack and s*** if he can't get on base. QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Dec 9, 2016 -> 09:58 AM) Do you guys see him as the leadoff hitter for next season? Or maybe a competition with Tilson? I absolutely HATE this moronic idea that speedy strikeout commandos should be batted high in the order. Nothing about his game suggests that he'll ever be able to get on base enough to EARN the leadoff spot. Of course, this means that this stupid organization will bat him first as he Ks his way to a craptacular .280 OBP, which will hurt the entire lineup, & the trade prospects for everyone else in it.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Dec 8, 2016 -> 07:07 AM) They both had a cup of coffee, but there's no reason to rush them at all. While I believe you're correct, in that there is ZERO reason to rush them/EVERY reason to max out their controllable years, be prepared for morons in the media and moron fans to b**** about how they "want to see Moncada and Giolito play" right away. This will be especially true if any of them show anything in Spring Training; historically, this front office has been suckered by spring training performances. For my part, Id be ok with any of the new acquisitions not making their debuts for the Sox until they're not only "ready," but DOMINATING down in Charlotte, and they force a move up.

QUOTE (Ro Da Don @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 11:51 PM) Baseball Reference, dawg. Player pages show service time. He has 5 years of control left. He was brought up in 2015 after the threshold for a year of service time by a few days, IIRC. Whew! That's a relief. I naturally assumed that the front office f***ed up another decision. And yeah, BR is great, but the contracts section doesn't load on my cell phone.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 11:38 PM) I fully support James Shields in this way and hope for him to royally suck for us. Agreed. Speaking of which, isn't John Danks available? Once Quintana is traded, that'll open up a spot in the rotation, and I'm sure Danks won't cost too much to sign. Id rather lose 100 - 120 games than to rush Burdi or Fulmer up, and stupidly waste their service time on teams that suck.

QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 11:39 PM) 5 Are you sure? I thought that the stupid front office brought Rodon up before the service time cutoff in 2015. I ask, because I can't find a link to conclusively state that it will be 5 rather than 4 years of control.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 07:43 PM) Future Rotation: Rodon Giolito Fulmer Kopech Hansen =Profit As an aside, how many more years of control do the Sox have on Rodon before his agent gets him to sign elsewhere in FA?

QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 11:00 PM) Now I have to think Shields being here to eat innings is huge. Hahn still isn't off the hook for trading an intruiging prospect for him, but since he's unmovable, he can go 7+ innings every.....damn....start now "Big Game" James should be the Opening Day starter... Just to make this team's tanking intentions perfectly clear. By the time this firesale is over, this could be a 120 game losing team.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 09:10 PM) What's to worry about though? We've proven we're not winning with Chris. QUOTE (BlackSox13 @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 09:14 PM) Keep in mind that the Sox weren't winning with Sale under the teams current construction and weren't going to win anything over the next three years. Keeping Sale for the next three years wasn't going to help the team rebuild or replenish the farm. Given the cavalcade of bad decisions in virtually every aspect of baseball operations by this front office over the past ~decade, I think its fair to be concerned about the outcome of this trade. This front office has earned, and RE-earned every bit of critique, scorn, and ridicule that they've been given. This move is bittersweet, in that a pile of dumb moves over the past decade or so painted this team into a corner. Having to trade away the best White Sox pitcher any of us have seen in our lifetimes is the fruit of all those dumb decisions.

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 12:38 AM) So because you prefer the OTHER pairing of top 2 prospects (which aren't even available to us), therefor Giolito and Robles are s***? I'm convinced you are going to hate to trade no matter what the outcome is, because you hate the Nats 2 best prospects. I have a prejudice against subjective rankings of players, particularly those with even the slightest hint of failure in the low minors. I also have a prejudice against pre-injured pitchers. We've all seen top prospects fail, and we've all been deceived by "tools" in a prospect. I'm also suspicious about why these guys are available, and I also don't believe that they represent enough of a premium to pay for proven performance in a player with ~$150MM+ in surplus value. All taken together, I don't like this trade being centered around these two.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 12:30 AM) I would be so pumped as a Nats fan what a no brainer steal of a deal. QUOTE (Real @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 12:35 AM) For Sale, you basically need to make the team trading for him feel as if they still lost something. Yeah their prospects are ranked highly but those are still subjective rankings on PROSPECTS. Sale is already known to be: Elite, and Cheap These two posts express my sentiment, without the cursing. With prospects, there is still a clear and present danger of busting out, or of injuries stopping a career before it gets going. (Especially, given what we've seen in the Nats two prospects.) Thus, a premium would have to be paid in order to get the proven product. That aside, if I were a Nats fan, I would be stoked about robbing the stupid white sox if the shoe were on the other foot. I'll fully admit that perhaps I place a greater importance on a prospect's numbers than I should. But then, we've all seen top 10 prospects bust out; these rankings are subjective, and for that, I believe we can place too much faith in a prospect's rankng.

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 12:19 AM) Before you hurl yourself off the Dan-Ryan, just know only 2 other teams can provide a base package of TWO top 10 prospects in all of baseball. Nats - Giolito #3, Robles #10 Red Sox - Moncada #1, Benintendi #5 Pirates - Glasnow #8, Meadows #9 This isn't some s*** package, halfway through the rumored offering. Of the three, the Nats pair have the most downside risk, given Robles' relative distance from The Show, and Giolito's injury history. We're talking about trading away Chris Sale, not some average Joe. Take the Shelby Miller return, and add more to that ti get to a starting point. Anything less is an insult.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 12:16 AM) Real talk, but can anyone name a single trade where a team got two top 10-15 prospects? There's only been a handful of these guys moved in the past decade, so I seriously doubt it's ever happened. Therefore, getting two top 10-15 prospects would pretty much be unprecedented. And despite that, people b**** these guys aren't appropriate centerpieces. This is a fair question, but at the same time, can anyone point out a 4-5 WAR SP being traded in his age 28 season, with 3 years of control and $150MM+ in surplus value? There is still a premium to be paid by the Nats, even if you trust that a prospect with a.741 OPS isn't actually a suspect. We can agree, that trading Sale is every bit as unprecedented as is shipping more than 1 top 10 out the door.

QUOTE (Blackout Friday @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 12:10 AM) The scouting reports on the player pages are outdated, back when Kiley was doing lists. Don't bother with them. Robles' stock has skyrocketed. QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 12:10 AM) Those grades were given by Kylie McDaniel almost 2 years ago. No idea why Fangraphs still uses them if they don't get updated. EDIT: It even says right above the grades, "Reported January 2015" I do see that now. However, he still only put up a .741 OPS in his 3rd MiLB season, which does not scream "franchise altering" in the least. I still hate this as a suggested return for a Cy Young contender, particularly give his age and surplus value.