Black_Jack29

QUOTE (beautox @ Oct 17, 2016 -> 09:32 PM) If Sale is moved there is no reason not to move on everyone except Anderson, Rodon & possibly Eaton, as he could be a part of the next divisional title, due to his age and contract. If you're going to keep Eaton, you may as well keep Q who is under contract through 2020.

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Oct 17, 2016 -> 06:29 PM) I think Moncada needs another year in AAA. His cup of coffee was weak. Benintend's bat was ML ready but his play in LF was sketchy at times . In fairness to the kid, he also skipped AAA so his problems in LF were understandable. I assume you are not thinking those 3 are in the same deal by the way. I think Moncada can be had for the right price but I really think JBJ and Benintendi are not going anywhere. A lot of the better prospects never see AAA (especially those as talented as Benintiendi), so that doesn't surprise me. I haven't seen much of him, but I know that playing LF in Fenway can be challenging. No, I realize that there's no way that Benintiendi, Moncada, and JBJ are all dealt for Sale. But I do think that either Benintiendi or Moncada needs to be a part of the deal. And I would understand why Dombrowski wouldn't want to deal JBJ along with Benintiendi, but that would mean that he'd have to pony up more prospects. With JBJ, what it boils down to is whether Dombrowski wants to give up a proven ML player and try to replace him via free agency, or give up more of his farm system. Most teams would probably prefer to hang on to a player like JBJ, who will be semi-expensive yearly, but won't come with a long-term commitment than overpay for somebody like Fowler in free agency. Then again, the Red Sox have a lot more money than most teams. I honestly don't know what Dombrowski would prefer to do.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Oct 17, 2016 -> 04:25 PM) That's the whole point with me. If you are rebuilding, why are you trading for a guy who will be 27 next season? Go young with the rebuild, don't half ass it like we've been doing with the "retooling". There's no way that the Sox will be doing a 4-5 year rebuilding. More like 2 years. And I don't think that's a pipe dream, given that JBJ is entering his prime, Benintiendi is ML-ready, and Moncada is close to ML-ready.

JBJ is desirable mostly because he plays plus-defense in CF and hits with a decent OBP, and the Sox have historically struggled to get guys like that. So he'd fill an important need on the Sox's roster. He's also under team control through 2020. That said, if the Sox do make a deal for him that includes Sale, they're going to have to get at least two of Boston's top 3 prospects in return, plus another lesser player or two.

Nothing personal against Getz, but I don't see how his resume makes him the most qualified option for his job. He's marginally qualified at best.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Oct 13, 2016 -> 12:24 PM) I definitely want Devers too if we're giving up Nate. Nate is an extremely valuable trade chip in his own right. Just look at what the Phillies got for Ken Giles. Giles is a little cheaper, but Nate is locked up for the next five years on a great deal. He's no throw in. Moncada, Benintendi, Kopech, Devers and Rodridguez for Sale and Jones, sure. But I'd want those last two. Not saying I wouldn't come off that request if it was the difference between getting the deal done and not. IMO, I want those five for Sale alone and that'd be my starting point. When they balk, I include Melky. If that doesn't excite them, only then do I offer Nate. Agreed. I'd hate to lose Nate Jones. But if he can sweeten the pot significantly, I'll miss him less.

QUOTE (SoxAce @ Oct 11, 2016 -> 10:48 PM) Yep. If sox are serious about rebuilding they need younger players. JBJ will be 27 next season in his prime. I doubt that the Sox are going to do a full rebuild. They have too many talented players that are under contract through 2020. I expect the Sox to move Sale, Melky, Robertson, and possibly Frazier (who they could also re-sign, if they'd like). If they get the right package of ML-ready talent for Sale and some decent players for the others, they should be able to compete in late 2018/early 2019.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Oct 11, 2016 -> 11:40 AM) I don't think the Red Sox would move both JBJ and Benintendi. I know you've said the same earlier in the thread, but I don't think a rental of Melky really changes anything. JBJ and Benintendi are both franchise CFers. The BoSox could move one, but moving both would take a huge strength and turn it into a huge hole. Neither Melky Cabrera or Brock Holt will make a difference in that regard. I do think a lot of posters on this board are underrating JBJ. I know we're trading the best asset the White Sox have ever had in this hypothetical and people want better than JBJ as a headliner, but JBJ is a .340-.360 OBP guy with 20+ dingers and great defense. Other than depth of the roster, our problem is the lack of power/OBP/defense. JBJ does all of those things at a premium position. At home, he can really take away the gaps. Seeing what Lorenzo Cain does when KC come to town, it would be incredible to have our own guy forcing teams to hit the long ball to win. Especially with Eaton in RF. I think Kopech is the guy the Sox would insist on including. He'd be the next ace prospect in the system hopefully to replace Sale in a few years. He had some makeup concerns coming out of the draft and has since been suspended for stims and suspended for fighting with a teammate. That adds another layer of risk on a 20 year old who throws 100+. He is filthy though. Despite a clear need to stop tipping his off-speed pitches, Kopech absolutely dominated A+ as a 20 year old. He stays tall and closed on the fastball but has a bad habit of dropping down and slowing down on the offspeed offerings. From my largely untrained eye, his mechanics would check out with the Sox. So to me, one of JBJ/Benintendi is a must. Kopech is a must. One of Swihart/Vazquez makes too much sense. If it's JBJ, we need Moncada too. If it's Bentinendi, the last four pieces are higher quality guys than the last three on Moncada/JBJ starter. If we could somehow get Moncada/JBJ that would be incredible. My deals in order of preference and least likelihood: 1.) Moncada, JBJ, Kopech, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson. 2.) Benintendi, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Eduardo Rodriguez/Brian Johnson 3.) JBJ, Kopech, Devers, Swihart/Vazquez and Luis Alexander Basabe

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 10, 2016 -> 09:10 AM) For my two cents unless you think a guy like Rich Dotson or Bobby Thigpen is ready for the big time, I don't see the Sox getting rid of Don Cooper. The minor league system is set up around this system of instruction, and it seems to feed all of the way up through the minors to Chicago. If you fire Cooper, it very well could mean starting over in terms of pitching development style. Agreed, especially considering that our pitching has been average at worst under Coop's tenure and the major arm injuries have been few and far between.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Oct 8, 2016 -> 10:03 AM) Agreed. You cannot fail this trade. Boston, in my opinion, is still the best match. I'd be perfectly fine with JBJ starting the deal. JBJ, Moncada, Kopech, Devers and Vazquez would work for me. In this type of deal, you need to get one MLB ready player to start the package. I'd love Betts back in the deal but I don't see them doing that but they may get desperate and feel they can plug in someone else. If they did include Betts, how many players would you get back? 3-4 as opposed to 4-5 if he's not in it? Betts, Moncada, Devers and Kopech would be a dream. Maybe I'm way off on the package I'm just throwing s*** out there so to speak. Question is if Sale got dealt and ya got back a combination of Betts or JBJ, and 3-5 of Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, etc., would that be enough to keep Quintana? I'd love Betts and would take less minor-league talent as part of the package if he's included. But if I were Dombrowski, I don't think I'd even do Betts-for-Sale straight up. I don't necessarily think that the Sox need to get a "centerpiece" player in return for Sale. They just need several good players in return, most of whom should be ML-ready. If Hahn received all of the top five Red Sox prospects, that would be enough. However, I'd prefer at least one guy who is proven ML talent, and hopefully it would be somebody who fills a current position of need (CF, LF, etc.). If the Sox could get Bradley, Devers, Kopech, and either Moncada or Benintiendi in return, I think that's on the optimistic side of what the Sox could reasonably get. Dombrowski undoubtedly wants Sale, but he's not going to completely give up the future to get him. Sale's really good, but he's not Randy Johnson-good and the Red Sox have resources to pay big-time for free agent starting pitchers.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 11:49 PM) He didn't start hitting well until Betts and Bogaerts started playing like all-stars and Hanley regained his all star form. Add Pedroia and Ortiz as healthy/steady producers and obviously it's going to help his stats. If you deny that you've lost all credibility. It helps that he's not surrounded by garbage. Then again, if he hits in the 2-hole in just about any lineup, he's going to get pitches to hit. Nobody's going to pitch around Bradley to get to Abreu. I think it's obvious that his struggles two and three years ago had to do a lot more with his age and experience level than the composition of his team. No, you get a 2-5 WAR CF in addition to 2-3 of their top prospects (many of whom are Top 50 overall and ML-ready). It's difficult to define the "centerpiece" of that bunch. I'd love to get a package of Moncada, Benintiendi, Devers, and Kopech in return for Sale, but I don't think that's going to happen. (I don't see Dombrowski giving up Benintiendi, given the way he's played this season, and they have a ton of money invested in Moncada already.) IF the Sox could get those four guys, then I don't see the point in Bradley. But I just don't see Dombrowski giving away his farm system to Hahn for Sale. The problem for the Sox in dealing with Boston is that, unlike 15 years ago, they're not desperate for a ring. They have plenty of fans, plenty of money, and they have the player talent to be competitive for another decade. The Sox may be better off doing business with the Yankees.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:41 PM) Betts is a centerpiece. Bradley isn't...can still do a Sale deal without a centerpiece. It would take some spot-on scoutting and creativity and quality negotiation....unfortunately the FO isn't exactly replete with those skills. Hahn's more likely to clear out the farm for McCutheon or the like...something that doesn't require evaluation or scouting - just pile on the prospects and your good. Betts is also a 9.6 WAR. Dombrowski wouldn't trade Betts for Sale straight-up.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:25 PM) I just said look at his performance when Boston wasn't stacked with all stars. Yeah, what a shocker that he wasn't raking at age 23, and didn't become a really solid ML hitter until he was 25. That's totally abnormal and a sign that he'll definitely be a bust going forward. I never did, but if he's a 3 WAR, he'd be a vast improvement over our current CF options. Throw in 2-3 of Boston's best prospects, and that'd be a decent return for Sale.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 11:16 PM) Yeah I said 5.3 WAR is a career year for him. Jackie Bradley will NEVER top that again in his career. His career will go the way of Chris Young, who ironically is currently on their roster as well. Feel free to add this to your sig. You're so sure of this, yet are incapable of offering a shred of supporting evidence. I have no idea which post you're referring to. And that doesn't surprise me, given the unmemorable content of your remarks.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:53 PM) I don't want to buy high on a guy having a career year who looked like a bust with a large sample size before that. He's having a better year because that lineup is stacked and he's getting more hittable pitches as a result. He'd revert to being terrible if he came here like he was when Boston was losing a few years ago. Selling high on guys like Trayce Thompson, Bradley are the type of moves that make sense and how you build a championship team with payroll constraints. Billy Beane is the master of this. This team bought high on Samardzija, Swisher, Koch, need I go on? So far he's been a complete bust this year in the playoffs (0-6 with 5 k's) and has a very inconsistent track record as a hitter year to year and month to month. And we'd only get 1 maybe 2 useful seasons out of him before he leaves since I doubt this team pays up for a guy at the end of his prime years. Um, Bradley just turned 26, so it's understandable that he was not that great three or four years ago. That's pretty normal. I love how you cite him being 0-6 in the playoffs as evidence that he's not very good, rather than the previous two seasons of .830+ OPS hitting. Dude was a 5.3 WAR this year and if you think that's comparable to Trayce Thompson, I have to conclude that you don't know what you're talking about. You're also wrong about getting 1-2 useful seasons out of him, as he's under team control through 2020.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:03 PM) Will be very upset if Bradley is the centerpiece. If Boston gets swept they will feel the pressure to make a splash. Yeah, it'd really suck to get a 26-year-old CF who can hit in the 2-spot, who's put up an .830 OPS in each of the past two seasons, and is under team control through 2020. If I'm dealing Sale, I want at least one proven young major-leaguer. Bradley and Betts are the best two fits for the Sox, and Bradley is going to be the more realistic centerpiece.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 09:12 PM) It's not unfair to give him credit for Gonzalez's season so far. Or the development of Rodon, or any of our other pitchers since 2006. Because admitting that some people in the Sox organization are actually somewhat competent doesn't fit the current narrative.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 06:59 PM) No surprise, he's here as long as JR owns the team (as is most if not all of the front office...) Mark The difference being that Cooper is actually pretty good at his job

QUOTE (SCCWS @ Oct 5, 2016 -> 02:41 PM) He is pitching above his average but he is also only 27. I think the question is has the Boston coaching staff changed something that has made him more effective. I can tell you the Boston media is having a love fest w this team. After 2 last place finishes, the Ortiz saga and the growth of their young players so quickly has them front and center. From a team standpoint, there is no talk about their starting pitching except who will pitch 3rd since they really have 2 #3 starters. It is all bullpen concerns. I would love to see Francona knock them out especially since they don't have home field. But it very well could be a Cubs/ Red Sox series on the horizon. That will have New England( maybe all of baseball) in a tizzy. There will be plenty of talk now, as Porcello and Price have both failed the Red Sox in this series.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 01:13 PM) The Red Sox are going to lose this series and be desperate. I think Benintendi, Moncada plus is a real possibility for Sale. With the way that Benintiendi has been raking, I think that they'll be reluctant to move him. From what I've heard, they've been reluctant to move Moncada as well. For Sale alone, I think that the Sox could realistically get Bradley, Devers, and Kopech, and possibly more. That would fill a need in CF, an upcoming need at 3B, and would replace Sale's loss with another pitcher.

I never liked the Nats, and I like them even less now.

QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Oct 5, 2016 -> 10:12 AM) If a rebuild is coming, get rid of Q and Sale, no sense of keeping 1 or the other There absolutely is sense in keeping one of them. Quintana is under team control through 2020 and he and Rodon appear to be the only sure-thing starters in the organization after next season. If the Sox can get a good ML-ready return for Sale and maybe one or two other decent players for Robertson and Melky, there's no reason why they couldn't be contenders going into 2019.

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Oct 5, 2016 -> 09:59 AM) Non sense. Every team in baseball "wants" Chris Sale. Rick friggin Porcello doesn't change that. Now only a few teams have what it takes to get him, and maybe they aren't willing to match that price, but that doesn't mean they don't want him. I more or less agree with this. Porcello is pitching way above his career numbers this year, and Dombrowski has to know that he's better off with Sale in his rotation over the next few years. If the Red Sox do anything less than win it all this year, I foresee Dombrowski and Hahn having some serious discussions at the winter meetings.

QUOTE (captain54 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 02:29 PM) I'm glad you and I aren't responsible for making out the lineup, but I've had my fill of watching Frazier strike out with a man on third and less than two, thank you However, the reality is he will probably hit 1-5 if he's still on the Sox in '17 Years ago, I had my fill of watching Paul Konerko ground into inning-ending double plays. That doesn't mean that his presence in the #3 and #4 spots wasn't justified.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 02:28 PM) Hawk says Steverson says the right things during BP but when the game starts, the players abandon what he was telling them. At the event I was at, RH did say they knew the team would be OBP challenged, but did seem disappointed that no one really got to the high end of what they were projecting, so I do think Steverson's seat is pretty hot. Yeah, if Hawk said that in public, Steverson is probably as good as gone. That's also a pretty damning thing to say about the players, and I hope that Renteria changes that culture.