Black_Jack29

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 29, 2016 -> 07:56 AM) Reinsdorf no doubt wants to win, but it has to be done his way. And quite frankly, that's the problem. He's not willing to go above and beyond what's necessary to overcome our poor farm system in order to build a winner. Signing a bunch of B free agents and never going into the red isn't going to cut it when we get very little help from the minors. He doesn't like utilizing loopholes, such as refusing to go over slot for years in the draft, and he's generally never been a big supporter of investing large dollars into said minor league system (with a few exceptions). Worst of all, he's built an organization with no accountability. How Buddy Bell is still here after years of development failure is beyond belief. The same arguably applies to KW, Hahn, & Ventura. Combine these factors amongst others, and it's no wonder we're stuck in baseball hell right now. I've never been a Reinsdorf hater, but we desperately need fresh blood at the top of this organzation. Exactly. Unfortunately, "his way" worked in 2005, so he's going to continue to operate that way.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 08:24 PM) What can you point to that would remove this cynicism of which you speak that would demonstrate how Reinsdorf prioritizes winning? Seriously? Uh, how about the money he's spent? In just the past two years, I'm counting about $150M in financial commitments to Melky, Robertson, Frazier, Shields, Samardzija, LaRoche, etc. Not to mention the long-term deals that he gave to Abreu, Eaton, Sale, Quintana, etc. That may not be George Steinbrenner money and one can question the intelligence of a couple of those moves (Shields, in particular). But it's pretty significant spending by somebody who doesn't have the Steinbrenner family's financial resources. If Reinsdorf doesn't care about winning, he wouldn't be spending like this. He could've saved a lot of money by fielding a team full of the Sox's crappy AA and AAA players. Look, I realize that you're pissed about the way that the organization is being run and I don't disagree with you about that point. But the idea that winning isn't a high priority for Reinsdorf is just dumb.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 08:02 PM) If Reinsdorf were so desperate to win, then he'd be after the manager's head after being told he had a competitive team 2 years in a row and then winding up a 4th place afterthought. At the worst he'd be saying "why not, we're desperate to win, try someone else" Having the organization made of the guys he wants there is a bigger priority for him. Winning is lower on the list than that. Reinsdorf supposedly wanted Renteria to take over mid-season, but Renteria supposedly said that he didn't want to do that to Ventura. (That's a rumor that somebody posted here a day or two ago.) I agree that Reinsdorf giving his guys too much job security is a huge problem, but I think it's really cynical to say that Reinsdorf doesn't prioritize winning. The truth seems to be that he wants it both ways. That *can* work out (like in 2005), but ultimately creates problems.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 07:57 PM) So an entire fan base that some feel lack some perceived level of loyalty, is denied having the team do what they SHOULD do to "properly construct a winner" solely because of decisions the 80 year old owner is arguably recklessly making to accommodate his personal time line? What about that screams WRONG! Yep, that's pretty much what's going on. Same thing in Detroit.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 07:33 PM) I know quite a few Tigers fans as I grew up in MI. They aren't thrilled with the constant doubling down but overall they've had a lot of fun. Most of them I know acknowledge that without the WS ring their run feels incomplete but most of them are also pretty happy with how the club has performed over those years with a consistently winning team and watching great players like Miggy and Verlander compete. They're not going to be feeling that way a couple of years from now. Tigers message boards will be just as whiny as Soxtalk by then.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 07:08 PM) Except the Tigers have consistently made it close. They aren't just sniffing .500 every year they are consistently in the playoffs or in the hunt until the last week of the season. Their superstars are incredibly aged compared to the Sox' as well. It's hard to tell Miguel Cabrera to wait a couple years for a rebuild. Easier sell to twentysomethings like Sale and Q. The Sox have little in common with the Tigers other than division. One is a well run club that puts out a consistently solid, if not elite product. The other, is well, the White Sox. My guess is that Tigers fans don't share your assessment. They haven't won a championship in 32 years and have an aging, declining roster. Ilitch is worse than JR, wasting $100M+ money on good-but-not great players like Justin Upton and firing a highly competent executive like Dombrowski. And they have no ring to show for it. Life as a Tigers fan will likely be worse over the next five years than life as a Sox fan.

I'm not sure that it's an accountability problem. I'd say the problem is Reinsdorf being unwilling to do a rebuild (full or partial) because of his age. Dude wants to win now and can't wait another four or five years to properly construct a winner. Detroit has the same problem with Mike Ilitch.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 04:40 PM) I think the rule with the White Sox is that they always think they have a great team and they tell themselves they all did a great job up and down the list. So, when they don't win, it's not because the GM did a bad job, it's because no one could have foreseen Putnam and Petricka getting hurt - Kenny literally said that last month, that was what demolished their season. If you follow that logic, then no part of it is Robin's fault and they have a strategy that works, they're just one player away and they'll need to pay any price for that player this offseason. Again. "The White Sox refuse to blame Ventura for the losing records" seems to fit that model to me and no one in the organization will question that - if anyone were to admit that what they were doing wasn't working, then there might be consequences for that kind of failure. As long as everyone agrees it was just bad luck and no one could have prepared for the team being that unlucky, then no one will have to worry about wins and losses being used to evaluate their performance and everyone keeps cashing their checks. To be fair, the Sox were roughly .500 against the two other AL divisions and the NL this year, but were pretty bad against the Central. Given that the Royals are on their way down, the Tigers aren't that great anymore, and that the Indians have injury problems to their rotation that may or may not hurt them next season, the Sox could semi-credibly claim that their current team would win 82-85 games in a less competitive division next year. If they can sign a couple of impact players this winter, they might be more like an 87-89-win team next season, putting them close to the playoffs. If that's their logic, I think it's a little on the optimistic side, but isn't way-far removed from reality. That said, if JR is really serious about competing next year, he's going to have to open up the wallet for a serious offensive upgrade in the OF, a couple more bullpen arms, and either a re-sign of Morneau or another good bat at DH. And on top of that, they're going to need the requisite minimal injuries that all teams need to reach the postseason. That said, if they're still toiling in mediocrity next July, I really hope that they sell off some assets and rebuild with younger players. As you've mentioned before, they can't keep doing this over and over again.

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 01:16 PM) My only hope is the Sox actually met, know they are parting ways, but agreed to let Robin be the one to own the terms of departure. That seems possible. There's not an obvious "promotion" that RV could take within the organization. I'm not in the "Fire Robin" camp because I don't think that he's the problem, but if you want to shake things up in hopes that the players respond better, this would be the perfect time to let RV walk. His contract is up at the end of the year and they already have a legit ML manager on their staff.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 08:33 AM) It's set up an interesting Catch-22 for the offseason. According to Hawk at the end of his last broadcast on Sunday, Mr. Reinsdorf expressed to him on a few recent occasions that he, meaning JR, "really, really, really wants to win next year". And so what does that mean to a team that for its final 80% of the season has played at a worse winning % than the team that lost 99 games in 2013? The answer ain't coming out of the minor leagues, as we all know. Maybe a couple of guys here in there on the pitching staff, but certainly nothing position player wise. So what do you do if your plan is to try and win next year? We shall soon see I guess in the ensuing months ahead!! It's remotely possible that JR out-bids other teams for Cespedes, but puts an "out" clause in his contract to keep the Sox off the long-term hook (similar to what he did with Albert Belle or how Heyward's contract is currently structured). That's the only way I see JR landing an elite FA.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 27, 2016 -> 09:15 PM) We need to shoot higher than him. We've been adding Josh Reddick types for a few years now and well, you've seen how that's worked out for us. I hear ya, but I don't foresee JR shelling out $!50M+ for Cespedes when he hits free agency this winter.

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Sep 27, 2016 -> 04:49 PM) Have things gotten that bad that acquiring Josh Reddick is considered a "pipe dream"? No, the market is going to be tight enough this winter that he'll command a lot more money than he's worth. JR isn't going to give him the $80M+ that he's going to get on the FA market.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Sep 23, 2016 -> 07:32 AM) And then the Sox would have a mediocre CF. Yes Eaton doesn't have ideal RF power but it's his best position ( probably would be good in left too). The gaping HR hole is the easiest to plug- DH. Get a real DH and OBP and defense from CF and the Sox are much better. No reason to downgrade the defense again. While I would also not be super-happy about the defensive downgrade of moving Eaton back to CF, the Sox need another high-OBP player more than they need Eaton if RF. Finding a CF who can hit and get on base with a .330+ OBP AND be a defensive upgrade to Eaton is going to be difficult. Especially considering that the Sox are probably not going to give out a $120M+ contract and currently aren't a popular destination for free agents. Also consider that most free agents don't want to DH... unless they're old, slow, and injury-prone like Morneau. If Hahn were able to convince somebody like Cespedes or Reddick to sign with the Sox, I doubt there's any way that either would agree to DH. A best-case scenario to address OF/DH for the Sox this offseason would probably be signing Reddick, moving Eaton back to CF, and convincing Morneau to sign a two-year deal to be our primary DH. I think that Reddick is pretty much a pipe dream, and my guess is that Morneau will end up paying for a team that's closer to winning a ring (e.g., Boston).

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 22, 2016 -> 04:05 PM) Yes, but the problem with using Johnny Damon to justify why Melky doesn't need to hit home runs is that Johnny Damon does things that Melky Cabrera never could do. It's nice to see that you've moved past the idea that a LF needs to hit 25-35 HRs. Since your "more HRs = more playoff appearances" argument has been thoroughly discredited, it's time to move on.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 22, 2016 -> 04:40 PM) Come on, guy. Damon stole 400+ bases in his career and walked a whole lot more than Cabrera, and I would guess might have score a time or two from first base on a double, etc. His speed and eye more than made up for his lack of power. So you admit now that LFs don't need to hit 25-35 HRs to justify their spots in the lineup? I'll call that progress. BTW, Melky is having a better season than Justin Upton, Alex Gordon, Jayson Werth, and a bunch of other starting LFs.

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 22, 2016 -> 04:12 PM) Correct. I think my take away from Greg's post, is the "carlos Lee batting 7th" line. Steroid era or not, as constructed we are not in the position where "replacing below average production with average production" moves the needle. We need big upgrades at 2b, OF, DH. When the White Sox are in the playoffs, I expect Tim Anderson to be a great player while also only being our 7th best hitter. I agree with that, but I'm not sure that we necessarily need to upgrade 2B... unless Lawrie continues to have health problems.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 22, 2016 -> 04:06 PM) Again, I have said all are good players. They don't hit enough home runs for the positions they occupy, given the rest of our offense. Period. LF and RF are power hitter positions where you typically get 25-35 homers a year and well north of .800 OPS. If Hahn could land a RF slugger, Eaton should move back to CF. Melky currently has a .790 OPS, 37 doubles, is slugging .446, and has a WAR of 2.1. That's far from bad, and his presence in LF is totally justified by those numbers. The idea that the Sox need to upgrade their offensive output in LF right now is ridiculous. The argument that all LFs need to hit 25-35 HRs to justify their spots on a ML roster is silly. Johnny Damon never hit 25 HRs once in his career. He was pretty good, no? As for Anderson, the Sox aren't in a position to move him. He's the only halfway decent position player they've produced in the past decade-plus. And being a rookie, he's dirt-cheap. The Sox are on a limited budget and it would be dumb of them to replace Anderson with an expensive free agent who can hit 5-10 more HRs.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 22, 2016 -> 03:54 PM) I mean, I can't really believe that I have to convince some of you guys that maybe we should build the team we are competing with around the ballpark where we play 81 of our games, but I guess here we are. I really can't believe you're claiming that Eaton, Melky, and Anderson are hurting us offensively, but I guess here we are.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 22, 2016 -> 03:43 PM) Blackjack, ok. I hear you on runs scored. I am, and have been, talking about home runs. The average MLB team hit 190 home runs in 2000. The average MLB team will hit 188 home runs in 2016. Can you explain why the White Sox should have reduced home runs compared to the Steroid era when the MLB totals really aren't down? Thank you. The obvious answer is that the Sox farm system fell apart about a decade ago and is no longer producing offensive talent like Frank, Robin, Maggs, Carlos Lee, etc. But again, home runs are an inferior metric to runs scored. Why are so few teams scoring 850+ runs this season vs. 15-20 years ago? Why are teams like the Yankees and Indians not slugging their way to pennants anymore? The Sox had an excess of offensive talent 15 years ago and mediocre pitching. Now the Sox have excellent pitching, but a dearth of offensive talent. Given their current level of pitching talent, the Sox don't need to hit 200 HRs or score 900+ runs to make the playoffs again. They only need to be average-to-above-average in runs scored to get back to the postseason.

QUOTE (bmags @ Sep 22, 2016 -> 03:36 PM) I agree with Greg actually. Melky has been really nice, but Melky + Eaton really would encourage makes it important to get power out of CF. We have pretty good offense at the corners of our IF. Or get a RF with power and move Eaton back to CF.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 22, 2016 -> 03:22 PM) The problem is the team composition. I feel like we're talking in circles. My very first post in this thread said I was not criticizing those players, but IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE THOSE PLAYERS with low homer totals, you have to get your homers from somewhere. I realize that you think the solution is to get RF(CF?)/DH production. How many more home runs do you think you can add to those positions next year, taking into account the amount of production we got from the third outfielder/DH position this year? Do you automatically assume Frazier will hit 40 again? You seem to think that steroid-era numbers will be easy to replicate in today's game. The reality is that few teams are going to be able to score 900+ runs again. The Red Sox are at 855 right now and they're an outlier. The Cubs won't get anywhere near 800 this season. The Orioles, Jays, and Rangers, will all end up in the 700-750 range. If the Sox could score 60 more runs next season (via a combo of more HRs, more 2Bs, better situational hitting, etc.), they'd be at around 700 runs, probably over 80 wins, and possibly Wild Card territory if their bullpen improves. The fact that a 900-run (or even 800-run) season is a pipe dream next season doesn't doom the Sox to another sub-.500 season. Given their starting pitching, they're not as impossibly far away from competing as you seem to think they are.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Sep 22, 2016 -> 03:25 PM) And, pretty much every starting pitchers arm/shoulder exploded. Eldred, Sirotka, Parque, and Baldwin all never really were the same again. Baldwin held onto it a bit longer than the other three, but that starting staff was ragged when the playoffs started Yep, I'm glad that Jerrry Manuel and Nardi Contreras don't handle our pitchers anymore.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 22, 2016 -> 03:16 PM) Yes, but it's not like we are talking about reverting to team like 2000....I'm talking about having enough power for a frontline of Sale, Q and Rodon to actually win a division and get into a playoff series where they could succeed. Well, yes, the Sox unquestionably need to score more runs. Nobody's arguing against that. But saying that Eaton, Melky, and Anderson are part of that problem just because they don't hit enough home runs (as if a HR is the only way to score a run) is just silly.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 22, 2016 -> 03:08 PM) I think Valentin's offensive production is one of the reasons we succeeded in that year despite relatively mediocre pitching top to bottom, but that it played well for the Sox because he was able to have a career year in a hitter's park. I don't think it's necessarily easy to replace. I think that creating enough offense can be done in a number of ways, though, and Valentin proves that. The Sox were lucky to win the Central in 2000. They over-performed before the break and regressed into an above-average team afterwards. Unsurprisingly, they were unable to win a playoff game.

QUOTE (Greg Hibbard @ Sep 22, 2016 -> 02:50 PM) True, but when you compare Jose Valentin's production at SS compared to other shortstops in that season, does he look relatively better than Melky Cabrera compared to other LF in this one? Valentin was an error machine, though his range made up for it somewhat. You seem to think that Valentin's offensive production is typical for a SS and that it'd be easy to replace, and that just isn't the case.