Black_Jack29

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 09:49 AM) After Jennings fails, who else do you send out there in the 5th inning? Maybe Gonzalez or Putnam (though Gonzalez is scheduled to start tomorrow). Albers was awesome last year and for the first five or so weeks of this season. So while he may have been over-worked last month, his track record doesn't suggest that he's going to suck for the rest of the season.

QUOTE (Tex @ Jun 8, 2016 -> 08:11 AM) Ventura has had his opportunity. This offseason he should be replaced. It may only result in a couple three more wins but it is the accumulation of all of those small improvements that make the difference. I believe he could be a very good to great manager in the right position. This just isn't the right time nor position. I don't know if it'll make a difference when the bullpen can't get anybody out anymore. That said, his contract expires after this season, so I have no problem with JR replacing him this winter.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 04:07 PM) Could this be another reason why they traded for Shields so soon? Rodon's youth and lack of arm conditioning in general was likely a reason why they brought Shields into the fold and are keeping Gonzalez on the 25-man.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 01:58 PM) I think it does change though. Prior to having a family, the sports world was important, as kids came along it fell back. As the kids got older and move out, there is less going on around the house and the sports world has begun to climb the daily ladder. Even before I got married and had kids, I found it important to have at least one other hobby besides sports. It's much easier to stay sane that way.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 7, 2016 -> 02:08 PM) At the end of the day, I can't see making a sport important enough (well without getting a paycheck from it) where it turns into something that I draw self-worth from. The game owns you at that point, and that just doesn't make sense to me. Yep. Rooting for one's favorite sports team should be a hobby, and nothing more. Especially if you work, have a spouse, and have kids.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 01:49 PM) Plus it moves Gonzalez to the bullpen which, depending on how Latos holds up, could save you from having to acquire maybe even 2 bullpen pieces. The more that one thinks about this, the more it makes sense, assuming Shields can deliver the goods at the level the White Sox expect. I feel bad for Gonzalez. His last few starts were pretty solid.

I just hope that Shields is more like 2015 Danks than 2016 Danks. His loss of velocity makes me a little nervous.

QUOTE (oneofthemikes @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 11:02 AM) Is it though? The whole roster has turned over in the past 3 seasons and we're still having this conversation. How many times do players need to be replaced before the organization looks in the mirror and makes a managerial/coaching/scouting/player development change? The problem seems (at least to me) to be with the organization, because it doesn't seem to matter much which names are on the backs of the jerseys. The scouting and player development areas are the problem. That's where the heads should be rolling. The manager, not so much.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 10:29 AM) There's a difference between making a move at manager to make a move and firing a guy who has no business being one in the first place. Yes these players aren't getting it done but Robin also isn't putting these guys in the best situations to succeed either. #WeDeserveBetter I disagree with this as well. Robin knows more than enough baseball to set the lineup, give guys their days off, and competently handle a pitching staff. (He's a lot better at the latter than Dusty Baker and Josh Gibbons.) Outside of putting Rollins in the lineup too often, he's doing a reasonable job. The other aspects of Robin's job include handling an antagonistic media, protecting his players, diffusing tension, and promoting a good clubhouse atmosphere. I don't see where he's gone wrong in any of those areas.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 6, 2016 -> 11:16 AM) I don't think many are opposed to RV going but are making the case that it won't make much of a difference. Making the player changes are much more important. you are spending far too much energy and angst on a move that won't make the difference. Channel the energy at the players to improve or for Hahn to improve the roster. That's basically where I stand. And that firing a manager mid-season is a desperation move that conveys the message that the organization is out of answers.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 08:50 PM) How many games under .500 or games out of the 2nd wild card would it take for you to be convinced otherwise THIS YEAR? Where you just say, to hell with it, "might as well try to ignite a spark because this team's going nowhere and Ventura's already a lame duck serving out his last months"? How would it help those key pieces of the 2017 core (like Anderson or Fulmer) to be around that kind of a clubhouse and apathetic atmosphere where they're just playing out the string and trying to be spoilers? At the very least, Renteria can assess those players over the final 2-3 months, and, if not retained, provide his objective insights to whoever gets the full time job for 2017. I'm not seeing an apathetic clubhouse. I'm seeing a group of players that were kicking ass just six weeks ago, but currently aren't getting it done. Some due to injury and some for other reasons. I'm also not seeing chemistry problems. Therefore, firing Ventura would just be a symbolic gesture at this point. As somebody else in this thread stated, it would be nothing more than red meat for the fan base. I don't think that it would motivate the team, either. It's more likely that it'd give the team the message that they're not responsible for their record. It would make more sense to "fire" a player that hasn't produced all season. Jimmy Rollins comes to mind.

QUOTE (CWSpalehoseCWS @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 09:05 PM) I would argue completely differently. Do you think that level of outburst would have happened with a manager like Maddon, Bochy, or Showalter? The way that clubhouse reacted goes to show you the complete LACK of control Robin has in that clubhouse. Note that it was Kenny Williams, not Robin Ventura, that banned Drake LaRoche from the clubhouse. Also note that Kenny Williams and Chris Sale are both hotheads and have had an antagonistic relationship from day one. I'd love to see Maddon try to "control" Sale and Kenny. QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 09:26 PM) Then why the resistance to change managers? I agree that managers don't make much of difference. But I think FIRING a manager and bringing in a new face could change some things in the players mindsets, and I'm for giving that shot because nothing else seems to be working right now. In addition to philosophically not agreeing that managers have much of an effect on team performance, I think that it would be disruptive to fire Ventura in the middle of the season. I would be much more comfortable with JR firing Ventura this winter. If it were up to me, I'd give this current cast of characters another year. If the Sox are still mired in mediocrity in July of 2017, I'd strongly consider holding a firesale, loading up on the best young ML-ready talent that I could, and firing Kenny Williams. That would address the real, systemic problems that have plagued this franchise.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 07:28 PM) This is one of the worst arguments for keeping Robin. The dude completely sucks at his job, but because some Fangraphs article says managers don't matter, I guess we should keep him right? Let's ignore an obvious area of potential improvement because it may only be worth a game or two in the long run. And quite frankly, I think it may worth more than that. Just like we're seeing in the valuation of high-end relievers, context does matter and a manager has the ability to impact the outcome of close games. No doubt it's hard to quantify their value, but that doesn't mean they have little impact on the game. So your counterargument is basically that there are no objective metrics for evaluating managers, but Robin sucks and has to go regardless. I'm not a Robin apologist. I think that he's a semi-decent manager and could live with or without him managing the Sox. The best thing that I can say about him is that he doesn't abuse the pitching staff and that he's done a decent job of managing/calming/motivating the not-so-smart contingent of the clubhouse that went wacko back in March. The worst thing that I can say about him is that he's given declining players such as LaRoche and Rollins too much slack. If you folks think that removing Robin and replacing him with Renteria or somebody else with ML managing experience is going to significantly change this team's winning percentage, you're lying to yourself and looking for an easy fix. The problem is the lack of player talent, not the guy who fills out the lineup card.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 07:04 PM) Renteria was hired to be a manager very soon. If the Sox keep failing, it will be here. If not, it will be somewhere else. If Maddon wasn't available a year and a half ago, Renteria would probably still be managing the Cubs.

QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 07:01 PM) You have a right to your opinion. I think you're wrong. Managers have little effect on the game, unless they're abusing the pitching staff or doing something ridiculous like giving the least productive players the most playing time. The worst thing that RV has done is bat Rollins second. And he's not only given up on that, but appears to be giving Saladino most of the playing time at SS.

I'd be shocked if the next manager wasn't Rick Renteria.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 06:25 PM) It really hasn't. no manager would have won games with the 2013-2015 White Sox. But keep kidding yourselves, Managers are so ridiculously scapegoated. It doesn't help that there's an endless supply of rubes who think that changing the guy who pencils in the lineup will automatically make the pitchers get hitters out and the hitters hit with runners in scoring position.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Jun 5, 2016 -> 12:34 PM) So I just realized that this makes our 2017 and 2018 rotations: Sale Quintana Shields Rodon Fulmer Sign me up! Shields is 34 and has already lost velocity. I don't expect him to be in a Sox uni for that much of 2018, and am not sure how much he'll be worth in 2017 either.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jun 4, 2016 -> 05:01 PM) I don't think the White Sox wanted Jon Jay. If they did, they'd have him. San Diego was trying to include him in the deal. The Padres aren't going to give away a decent CF/LF with a .760 OPS for nothing. And the Sox would be a better team with Jay on the 25-man than Avi/Sands/Shuck. It's more likely that the Sox had some interest in him, but the Padres had little to gain by selling low on Jay. Hahn probably had a limit on how much of Shields' contract he could absorb and was probably not willing to give up a decent minor-leaguer for Jay. It makes more sense for San Diego to entertain offers for Jay closer to the trade deadline and for Hahn to save his tradable minor-leaguers for a higher-impact bat (Bruce, Markakis, etc.). I think that Shields is close to done, but he may have some benefit this season in allowing Gonzalez or Latos to spot-start for Rodon later this summer. Rodon's arm isn't conditioned to throw 200 innings and the Sox will need to lighten his load in August and September. Right now, Shields is a better bet than EJ or Fulmer.

I am a little sorry to hear that Hahn couldn't get Jon Jay as part of the package. Jay in LF, Melky at DH, and Avi/Sands in Charlotte would do this team some good.

QUOTE (WhiteSoxfan1986 @ Jun 4, 2016 -> 01:50 PM) I'd like to see Gonzalez as the long man, with Putnam as the 7th inning guy. It's tough to choose between Gonzalez and Latos, though I might give the edge to keeping Gonzalez in the rotation. Still, both have earned spots on the 25-man. It'd also be nice to have a dedicated long-reliever. Agreed about Putnam, who's been solid so far this year.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Jun 1, 2016 -> 10:23 AM) But so can Abreu, Frazier, and Saladino. We don't need him. Yep. I have no idea why he's still on the roster. If May showed us anything, it's that we'd be better off using that roster spot on an extra bullpen arm.

Since when is playing .500 ball "pretty bad"? The Yankees have a reasonably talented team and it's difficult to argue that they're not competitive. Given that and the fact that Beltran has been hitting really well, I don't see why the Yankees would want to trade him at this point. And then there's the partial no-trade clause that would have to be waved. Buster Olney's logic makes no sense to me.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ May 27, 2016 -> 09:51 AM) He was known to have a bad back when they traded for him, and KW gambled and lost that he could pitch through it. Of course, the guy that Kenny traded for Wells (Mike Sirotka) was damaged goods and never pitched a game for Toronto. So it wasn't really much of a gamble for Kenny at all.

QUOTE (Ezio Auditore @ May 26, 2016 -> 03:11 PM) I don't think Anderson = Beckham though. Anderson has been in the minors for long enough to where that comparison is basically moot. He can't be rushed like Beckham because he's played more than less than half a season's worth of games. Beckham was a star in the SEC and was better-prepared than Anderson at this point in their respective careers.