SonofaRoache

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 03:23 AM) Machado is a headcase/dbag with an attitude problem who has tools but is a poor leader. With the team's new focus on character guys what is so appealing about bringing him in as a rental when some are suggesting we give up real prospects and players on the roster with high upside? This is not the guy to build a team around and the Orioles know it. Sounds like another Cutler to me. The Orioles know they can't re-sign him. His character isn't the reason. If you all want to go all in with our prospects expect to become the Twins of contending. Good enough to win bad divisions but never a real contender. You have to acquire elite talent if you want to win consistently.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 03:20 AM) Really? I saw a lot that did like it. Only because they felt we didn't give up much because of where prospects were ranked. But Oakland was smarter than that. I read a lot of posts from people saying they weren't with a deal for Shark. Not everyone, but enough to make it a meaningless point.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 03:13 AM) So those Hahn quotes Tony showed you was just Hahn being a good soldier ? He never said I, he said we, we, we, we. I never said that was smart planning, I said it was the opposite and clearly stupid. I don't think it was stupid because he was a rental, it was stupid because the pitcher wasn't good to begin with. I also said I question Hahn's ability to go all in with an average team and patchwork the roster. I said I trust him with this rebuild because as it pertains to this rebuild, he has done an outstanding job. I'm not sure what point you are making here. The Sox were horrible when he was here, and Shark was horrible as well. So of course the two sides split. Had Shark produced a 2.80 ERA and we lived up to expectation, he probably would have re-signed.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 03:10 AM) Lol I predicted you would say this 30 minutes ago. All the bad trades are KW's fault, all the good trades are Hahn's. You probably think the Shields trade was KW too right? That trade happened in 2014 and I don't think Hahn was making those types of decisions at that point. Kenny's history shows that's his type of deal. 30 year old mediocre player. Machado is young and elite.

QUOTE (Tony @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:52 AM) www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93812&st=0&start=0 A lot of the posters said they weren't fans of the Shark trade in that thread. I don't know why you all keep saying everyone here wanted that deal. And again, he sucked, so there was no point in making the trade. In the NL/pitcher parks his ERA prior to the trade was 3.81 4.34 3.14 Good pitcher but nothing special there. Certainly not worth an extension either when you factor in AL and our park.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:40 AM) You have this weird assumption that all it takes is 1 magical year on the Sox and Machado is going to fall in love. He's going to be playing in front of 10k people and lose 90+ games. Money. Money is all that matters. If we can't offer him the most money + opt outs + NTC he's never going to sign here, now or in 2018. My belief is that we have zero percent chance to sign him in FA. I think that goes up to 70 percent if we offer him a top offer after he is traded here. I think this team is going to surprise people and if healthy can get close to 81. It wont be a fairy tale situation but knowing that we will start to compete in 2019 should be the cherry

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:40 AM) Hahn may be doing a great job with the rebuild but the Samardzija thing was a disaster and Hahn was the guy who did that. So you trust Hahn but think the Samardzija deal was a terrible thing that Hahn did ? So has he earned your trust because of the rebuild but all of a sudden it's not a rebuild it's a trade just like the Samardzija trade ? Those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them. That Shark trade smells like Kenny. A vet pitcher who was brought in to go for it. Machado is coming to be a part of the rebuild if it happens. I trust Hahn in this rebuild because his moves have been excellent. This is what I mean when I say I have no reason to doubt him. Building the team, and not simply trying to go for it with an average team has gone much better.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:32 AM) You weren’t around for the Shark deal where everyone who was later proven wrong made the same arguments you are making now. I'm making an argument for a great baseball player though moving to a big city. Shark sucked, played for the Cubs so the White Sox were probably meh to him in comparison, and re-signing him would have been a horrible mistake anyway because he sucks.

QUOTE (Tony @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:31 AM) If the Sox give up anything of significant value? Yes, it would still be a mistake. Manny Machado has been on a middle of the road Baltimore team his entire career. He'll come to Chicago in 2018 and play in an empty ballpark for a team that is probably going to 72-75 games, at most. He's a 25 year old on the verge of signing one of the largest contracts in SPORTS history, and you honestly believe he's going to be enamored about playing with Moncada and Eloy? Stop acting like Veruca Salt, take a deep breath, and wait out the rebuild. Do it the right way. Acquire as many young assets as you can, let them develop, and see who become core pieces. We aren't trading Moncada, Kopech, and Gio here. We are trading our 3rd best pitching prospect, and while not ideal, it's not like the rebuild will end because we trade him.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:25 AM) We don’t need him this year and we don’t need to trade young players to sign him. He’s testing FA. If you need him that bad have the front office start preparing their pitch today. He will be the Jay Cutler of the White Sox. This type of thinking is what puts teams like the Twins behind the Yankees, Red Sox, etc every year. You have to gain any advantage you can over the big boys. Remember, there is no promise we can build a team better than Houston, LAA, Yankees, Red Sox, or the Indians. That's 5 teams we have to worry about the next 5-7 years, and even with our crop of prospects, we aren't at that level.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:19 AM) You know how many people thought Samardzija was a great candidate to resign with the Sox ? This board had a ton of posters just like you with Machado thinking Samardzija would not test free agency. The fact that Machado is way better than Samardzija makes it even more likely he becomes a FA.Even if he thinks Chicago is great, Hahn is great, the players are great the field is great , the fans are great and the Sox will be serious contenders for a World Series he will still become a free agent. If the Sox truly want him get him as a Free agent at least that way there's another year of development and Kopech and Jimenez are on the Sox at mid season they keep ABreu and Avi and both have good years and the young starting pitchers continue to grow and our other top prospects put up some good numbers. The Sox may be even more attractive in a years time but right now the Sox need to let th rebuild continue to grow. Can you imagine getting Machado for a year than Hahn trades Abreu and Avi not to mention whatever he gave up for Machado ? How the heck would that look to Machado ? It would be like 1 step forward and 3 steps back. I don't disagree with the statement on Shark. Sure people thought we'd re-sign him, but my point is that trade should have never been made to begin with. His numbers weren't that good, especially not worthy of the deal he wanted anyway. He is James Shields with a little more height. I think Hahn is going after him because he knows it'll be tough to talk any of the big FA's into coming here without some type of boost. If 6 teams offer 10/300, we aren't winning that race. Maybe Hahn had Castilo chat with him and heard back that he would have to test Chicago out first before signing a deal. Either way, I think Hahn knows what he is doing and I have no reason to doubt him after these past 12 months.

QUOTE (whitesoxwinner @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:18 AM) Hahn became GM after 2012 season. Started the rebuild after 2016 season. That is 4 years. I said in my post, first time he got the chance without Kenny forcing his hand. Meaning, Kenny stopped forcing his hand and let him proceed with building the team as he saw fit recently.

QUOTE (Tony @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:16 AM) A less than a year into the "rebuild", there are serious rumors about trading top prospects for one year rentals. You want to be honest? The Sox had Chris Sale, Jose Quintana, Jose Abreu and Adam Eaton all in their prime, on the same team, and couldn't really come close to building a winner around them. The only reason this rebuild has gone over well with us is the lack of excitement around perennial losing teams every single season. This has been a TERRIBLE decade of White Sox baseball. They've had a good 12 months in hitting the reset button. But I don't want to hear anything about "They've earned my trust." The Front Office has a LONG way to go before they earn anything. Well we don't even know if that's true yet or not. And what if we do re-sign Machado because we traded for him early? Would it still be a mistake then?

QUOTE (whitesoxwinner @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:15 AM) Sure. That's not what was said, though. Actually it was when I said "Kenny forced his hand"

QUOTE (whitesoxwinner @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:13 AM) It took about 4 years for hahn to delve into a rebuild. You can't be serious...

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:07 AM) Machado is not going to sign without testing FA. Why are we so hard up to blow up our rebuild to add this dbag with the attitude problem when we have young guys coming up. This is our future leader? What has Machado ever led his team to? This front office can’t even go one full year of a rebuild without falling back into their “go for it” ways. Unreal How are we blowing up our rebuild? Moncada, Kopech, Lopez, Fulmer, Rodon, Jimenez, Robert, Cease, Hansen, Burger, Collins, Rutherford, Burdi, Dunning, and 4th pick would mostly all be here.

QUOTE (Tony @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:09 AM) Rick Hahn has been with the White Sox as an executive for 17 years. Lucas Giolito is a 23 year old pitcher. Please don't compare "track records" of the two. Let's be honest, was Rick really making these decisions before? Once he officially took over he got us into the rebuild shortly thereafter that we avoided for too long. This is his first real chance to build a team without Kenny forcing his hand.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:03 AM) A) "All teams" are not going to offer 10/300. He's going to have a handful of offers in that range and will likely sign with whichever has the most money + opt outs + NTC. All things that the Sox are not known for. B) There's a 0% chance he signs an extension and skips free agency C) In the entire history of the Sox, they're never the 'desired' location and never will be. The only way we get guys is to overpay, which again, they don't do. D) We can make that offer 11 months from now and not give up a guy with 5+ years of control Trading anyone of note from this roster for a rental is such a huge risk that they shouldn't be making 1 year into a rebuild. When I said all teams I'm referring to all interested teams. Yankees, LAA, etc will off 10/300. He may not sign one, but our odds of retaining are solid if he is here already and likes it, AND we offer him 10/300. Well as far as history goes we make the playoffs once a decade on average. That will change when we consistently win, people will want to be in Chicago during the spring and summer.

QUOTE (Tony @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 02:00 AM) Because of his long track record of success in that area? What long track record does Giolito have at this level?

QUOTE (Tony @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 01:59 AM) That is completely irrelevant to the conversation. The Sox acquired Samardzija with the absolute intention of re-signing him. Here is the quote from Hahn, AT THE WINTER MEETINGS. They tried most off that winter to get him locked up, but he wanted to test free agency. I'm not disagreeing there. I said it was stupid because Shark wasn't very good to begin with. And after his season with us he wasn't worth extending anyway. If Shark were a top 10 pitcher in baseball I'd feel differently about that trade.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 01:52 AM) Are you kidding me? Giolito was absolutely dealing like an all-star once he got acclimated. This is nuts that people are cool with dumping him for a rental. Cheap young tor starters like that are GOLD. You don’t trade them EVER if your team has any kind of budget constraints. Carson Fulmer was dealing like an all-star as well. Lots of pitchers flame out after hot starts. Not saying this is a certainty with Gio, but he hasn't produced for a few years yet. If Hahn thinks he can convince Machado to sign, or flip him at the deadline I'll trust his judgement. Top 10 players and potential Hall of Famer's are much more GOLD than guys who look good for seven starts.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 01:53 AM) Nailed it. Wasn't this the plan with Samardzija who grew up a Sox fan not far from the Chicagoland area ? Repeat after me Jeff Samardzija , Jeff Samadzija .... He isn't Machado. Shark wasn't nearly the level of player Machado is and he wasn't worthy of re-signing after his one year here.

QUOTE (Jenksy Cat @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 01:44 AM) These guys don't give 2 s***s about that stuff, I don't know where people get that from. He's going to sign with whichever team pays him the most. Not true. If all the teams offer 10 years and 300 million we need something to be in our favor. He wouldn't pick us over the Yankees and others in that situation unless he were comfortable here already. He's going to get that deal from every interested team, and we wouldn't be talking trade if we didn't plan to make a top offer. I think we are holding on to these prospects a little too close. We'd lose one we'd miss, whom prior to his last few months of the season people were down on. I like Gio, and hope his name isn't included, but if you can get a top 10 player on your team you do it. Shark and Shields were bad trades because both of those guys sucked when we got them. They weren't top tier players like Machado is.

QUOTE (hi8is @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 01:41 AM) It's not that easy to: A, replace Giolito from a f***ing draft and B, sign Machado. Giolito is unproven even though he was good this year. He is a rookie who hasn't accomplished anything in this league. Rodon, Kopech, Lopez, and Hansen may all be better than him. The plan people want to to try to sign Machado in FA when we have less than a 5 percent chance. The only shot we have at getting a Hall of Fame talent on this roster next year is by trading for one. It would suck to lose Gio but we would get by pretty nicely without him, just like the Nationals did.

QUOTE (Tony @ Dec 14, 2017 -> 01:36 AM) Then you don't give up anything of value for him right now. You're giving this front office way too much credit. Why not? Our odds of signing him in FA are slim if you want to be honest. Already having him on the team gives us a 50/50 shot to keep him if we are willing to pay him market value. We have an up and coming team, great city, money to spend on FA's, and he could be the hero here, unlike other places.