FT35

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 01:20 PM) Isn't spending $46 million on a closer a big market move? I'm not sure a team's market determines whether $46M is spent on a closer. Isn't it more about the competitive state of that team or who is capable on their roster (no matter what their salary is)? For example...Philly is one of the larger markets but they do not have a $46M closer because they aren't that good. Many big market teams do have an expensive closer because their team warrants one. But many large market teams don't--K-Rod is $3.5M in Detroit, Harris is 514K for Houston, Mauer is the minimum in SD. Let's not forget everybody's favorite Cubs--$544K for Rondon. Market may be an independent variable to closer cost.

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 07:59 AM) Nope. But at least I know you werent actually watching the game. It's all good! I was watching. During the game, there will be ups and downs--Sale was struggling a bit but still getting outs with other pitches. I don't hate your philosophy--not upset at all that you disagree and I respect your thoughts. I'm just passionate about this particular situation because I'm old school when it comes to letting your starter finish the game when he's been dominant. Even more so when it's your ace, and even more so when it's the best ace in the league. I think managers baby their pitchers and it drives me crazy. Bring Robertson in to close out a fading Rodon. Leave Sale alone. The only way you take him out is if Sale requests it. I bet you a crisp dollar that Sale believed with his whole heart that he could finish that game--even with fading stuff. It would take an injury for him to want out. Fatigue means nothing to a champion. He knows his body better than anyone. Jordan took the last shot of the game because there was no better option in the world to take that shot--even if he was tired. He had likely taken 20 other shots before the last, and he was probably tired, but if you had told him he was going to sit out the last shot so Toni Kukoc could do HIS job and score, he would have walked off the court. The most important aspect of that is that PHIL JACKSON KNEW THAT. Phil Jackson LET Jordan be the champion that he was. He didn't take the ball from him BEFORE the winning shot. Robin simply doesn't think like a champion so therefore none of his players are allowed to be champions. The decisions that MAKE champions are taken away from them and passed on to other people when the game is on the line. Sale's arm is worth $20M+ when he's using it to throw a baseball every 5 days--not when he's resting it peacefully on the bench with the game on the line--after only throwing 100 pitches through 8 dominant shut out innings--while another guy finishes HIS GAME. All the respect in the world for my fellow Sox fans...even a big fan of Rock Raines! But this aint gonna change my mind!

QUOTE (RockRaines @ Jul 19, 2016 -> 07:34 AM) No it wasnt. He had a 3 run lead and was losing his stuff. You pay 40 million dollars for Robertson to close, and this was a picture perfect opportunity and he failed. Sale at 100 pitches is better than a fresh Robertson. He's our best chance to win at any point of the game. He's not just our best pitcher either...he's the best pitcher in the American League. If he runs into trouble, you go get your fresh arm with a little adrenaline to go with it. Again...the hitters due up were 1 for 10 on the night. You bet on your ace to come through and seal the deal first. He's not 10 years old, he's in the prime of his career. Let the closer come in if there is trouble or an option other than Chris Freaking Sale pitching.

Agree Robertson has been great for us. My problem is more that Robin babies Sale. This happened in a game last year (against Cleveland I believe) where Sale was dominant and had his unhittable stuff going, then Robin pulled him for some reason going into the 9th. Tonight Sale was at the 100 pitch mark through 8 innings of 1 HIT ball--a clip of about 13 pitches per inning. The next 4 hitters due up were 1 for 10 on the night against him. I understand being mindful of Sale's pitches, but as long as the game is still in doubt, you run your ACE out for the 9th. He's going for a 1-hit shutout--you run him out to at LEAST start the 9th. Do you think Baumgarner gets pulled in that situation? Kershaw? Cueto? No. They finish what they started even if it means throwing a few extra DOMINANT pitches. He's thrown 118 this year, 119, 113...he's your ace for crying out loud. If you get burned, so be it, but you have to learn from it. Robin just plain repeats the process and makes the same mistakes over and over and watches these types of games get blown up. Robertson shouldn't have been in that situation. That was Sales masterpiece to finish, but daddy came in and took his paint brush away so he could get a bath in before bed. Makes me sick. These guys are GROWN MEN.

If you were going to do the unthinkable and trade Sale...prospect package from Houston built around 3B Bregman or from Boston built around 2B Moncada? Sox would pretty much have their pick of whoever they want from a prospect standpoint--maybe from a MLB player standpoint as well!

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jul 16, 2016 -> 02:03 PM) I think Sox are standing pat because they'd have been making moves by now, starting with Frazier, Robertson. Waiting til right before the deadline means we'll get robbed again. Hmmm...I think them holding off what they are doing has more to do with the fact that a lot can happen in the 2 weeks before the deadline. They themselves could get back in it with a little run. More teams could join the race--meaning more teams would bid on our players if we sell--driving the price up. More teams could fall out--meaning more sellers to buy from if we happen to get back in it. I don't really think we know for sure that they are standing pat now because they haven't moved anyone out yet. The picture is pretty clear to us--but murky do to all that can happen in the next 2 weeks.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 18, 2016 -> 09:20 AM) I don't know what to do. I don't trust Hahn to do a rebuild not because I don't think he could get the best return (though I have my doubts) but because he has proven he can't sell the patience required to have a wave of young talent come up at once. I just would prefer we don't buy unless it is for a long term player in a down year we think could be useful later. Makes sense. Being a GM takes practice too and Hahn hasn't had a ton of practice selling (because they always insist on adding??) so he's probably not the best to lead a big sale. Almost like you need to sub out that portion of his job to someone who has practice selling assets and getting the best returns. GM consignment...I like it!

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 18, 2016 -> 07:23 AM) The Sox CANNOT and WILL NOT make a run this year with a team that is a cat whisker away from having the worst offense in the entire league (for the second straight year, I might add). Shockingly, the dumpster dive moves from last winter to upgrade the offense haven't panned out, and thus the team is essentially in the same boat offensively as it was this time last year. And that, ladies and gentleman, will not get this team to the playoffs...for the eighth straight year. Agree that the odds are very low! But you never know. Some of the teams in the same position might choose to sell and thus slip a little, some might crash like we did earlier this year, some could battle the injury plague, we could go on a very minor run and get back within a few games again. It's baseball and weird unexplained things happen ALL THE TIME! A minor sell would allow us to collect some value for certain players--but still keep us in the conversation as a wild card dark horse--and to this management group, that's what keeps fans coming to watch this team. It probably won't happen, but it could. Not the position you want to be in, but chemistry and winning sometimes come out of nowhere--in all sports. The most likely teams to win don't always come through.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Jul 18, 2016 -> 06:53 AM) I really think you can move Robertson and Frazier and not really mess with the long term picture of this team. What about a guy like Cody Bellinger for Robertson? Dodgers strengthen their bullpen, have a little leverage in a Jensen negotiations this offseason, Burdi can replace Robertson in the pen (probably setting up for Jones), and Bellinger can move Jose to DH. You could try moving Frazier to a team like the Mets too for someone like Brandon Nimmo. Good plate discipline, solid defender in CF, they are probably a little down on him right now. Same thought here. Minor sell. You don't need to do anything drastic. We are a .500 team, we're not going to really contend, but there are some nice pieces in place for the next couple of years. I think you can move Robertson at the VERY least and get something you can use this year or next. Don't like to trade the guy, he's done a respectful job, but he has value outside of what we can use. A lot can change with the playoff picture in 2 weeks though...we might not see a deal until the last day. I still believe the Sox can make a run THIS YEAR without Robertson. Jones is capable and the rest of the team is in tact. Spend the rest of the summer developing players for next year while still in a somewhat mindful Wild Card race (that will likely NOT happen for us--with or without Robertson).

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 13, 2016 -> 04:29 PM) Well, not every prediction is going to be right...and just because a player has all the tools in the world doesn't mean they're going to take advantage of them. I remember back in 1985, I must have bought 100 Eric Davis rookie cards thinking he was going to be the next Mays/Mantle. Didn't happen. By WAR, Puig's at 1.0 (and looking at around 1.5-2.5 for a full season assuming he stays healthy and continues his recent improved play). That would place him 34th out of 53 in the category (qualified number of AB's). Not nearly up to the standards of his first two seasons, but if a bunch of "Avi Garcia could do that in his sleep in RF" posts come up, it will be pretty amusing. In the context of AL MLB outfielders, 48th-51st out of 197 total players. So, if that's not a starting outfielder, I'm not sure what is. Not a bad thought on the Eric Davis cards...we all thought he was going to be a stud. If you had only bought the McGwire instead! Still though, check the condition of your Davis cards...Graded PSA 10 copies of his 85 Topps cards are worth about $100 a piece. The McGwire is sitting pretty at $600 for a perfect 10 grade.

I'm not a Puig fan. Too much head case potential. But it is a business so you need to do your due diligence and consider. Due to Puig's affordable team control--(7-8M/per through 2018??), I'm not sure we have what it takes to get a deal done--unless they are looking to unload him like SD did with Shields. You think about it--our MLB-ready guys (Sanchez, Avi) aren't desirable enough, we have our few 'untouchable' prospects and I'm not sure Hahn would part with Fulmer, Burdi, Collins and certainly not Anderson to acquire a potential head case who hasn't done anything productive outside of a Physical Therapy facility in 2 years. I suppose if you could get him for May? Hawkins? Adams? Problem is, if our top prospects aren't a part of the deal, it would pretty much wipe out our 2nd tier group and possibly our 3rd! I'd much rather take on more of his salary than trade anyone in our system with any kind of value for him--but at that price, $ relief isn't the point of trading him for LA--a large haul of prospects is. I'd say pass unless the discount is HUGE.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 13, 2016 -> 02:24 AM) http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/07/2017...rankings-4.html Obvious White Sox FA targets: Bautista/Encarnacion (both too old but won't stop a team from overpaying) Josh Reddick Ian Desmond (this time the cost will be 4-5 years and $60-80 million) Kenley Jansen or Aroldis Chapman (if they trade Robertson, which is highly unlikely) Wilson Ramos/Wieters (two obvious catching targets) Dexter Fowler Mark Trumbo Michael Saunders Carlos Gomez/Colby Rasmus Neil Walker Rich Hill Not a whole lot of talent at all to spread around the entire majors, this time around. Almost nothing on the starting pitching market, just a lot of spare parts and veteran relievers... Yeah, not sure any of these would make much sense for us. Maybe Reddick? Except a FA deal would probably take him well into his 30's and involve outbidding a few other teams. Maybe if Gomez's value hits rock bottom after this year's dud, they could take a flier on him with a 1 year deal--dirt cheap--and hope for a bounceback? It would keep Eaton in RF.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 13, 2016 -> 09:06 AM) Yes, even as a utility player, Tyler Saladino has a LOT of value. He plays plus defense at the very least at three positions. Correct...but playing him as a regular would sort of eliminate what makes him valuable--his plus defense/versatility off the bench. Unless you plan on sitting someone different everyday to make room for Tyler to be in the lineup everyday. To DH him would be a wash since fielding is what he does well. I guess my point is that I think they are using him well right now in his current role.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Jul 13, 2016 -> 05:43 AM) I'm also convinced that Saladino is a utility infielder. He's a good one though. See I'm with you on this one. I don't see why everyone is calling for him to be a regular. He's obviously highly regarded by the people in this forum, but he's a career .261 hitter in the minors (over a large sample 541 games)... .233 in his major league at bats. He's shown some improvement this year, but I still think he maxes out at .250 12-14 HRs, 50 RBI and about that many runs scored. He's basically the infield version of Avi Garcia with those numbers, but everyone loves him because he doesn't play everyday and the speculation is that he would be great if he did. Great guy off the bench though with his position versatility.

It's very possible that the A's asked for either Semien or Anderson to be in the deal for Shark. Do you think we made the right decision?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 12, 2016 -> 05:42 PM) You just had a couple of mods in this very same sequence of posts say the organization had clearly given up on him. It's not just me. It's what the White Sox ALWAYS do. The same thing happened with Daniel Hudson after 3 starts. Micah Johnson got about 3 weeks. Carlos Sanchez got about half a season as well, despite being only 22 or 23. They give up on players too quickly or they play them 1-2 seasons too long when they can't believe they were so wrong in their talent evaluation (Beckham, Viciedo, Flowers, Avi Garcia). Somewhere in there is a middle ground that they can't seem to find, a sweet spot, where patience has to be met with results. Marcus Semien had 300 career at-bats with the White Sox. That's essentially half a season. And then they decided he wasn't going to make it. So what's the point of not trading him at that point? They weren't willing to play him everyday, even though that's exactly what rebuilding teams do. That's exactly what Billy Beane did (see below). http://m.mlb.com/news/article/188565220/as...lays-every-day/ But thanks for playing, Dick "Stalker" Allen See I disagree with this perspective. I don't think the Sox set out to actively trade the guys you mention nor do I think they gave up on the process after too short of a sample size. I think they USED the young guys to get what they wanted at that time--then got STUCK with the guys no one wanted! (Beckham, Viciedo etc). I could be wrong, but I am assuming that there are not many teams calling Hahn trying to get Carlos Sanchez nor is Rick Hahn actively shopping Sanchez as a centerpiece of a trade because he hasn't panned out. But if Hahn was looking for a Jay Bruce type player, the Reds might think to include Sanchez-- a young, cheap player with MLB experience--especially with an aging 2nd basemen on their MLB roster. Same goes for Shark. They weren't looking to trade Semien, they were looking to acquire Shark because they thought he was a top of the rotation RHP that could compliment who we have. It was a GREAT thought and one worth overpaying a little on the prospect side to get done. Semien had showed something to everyone--including the Sox. We didn't MISS the boat on him, we leveraged him. Now...that didn't pan out the way we had hoped because Shark bombed here, but I bet you a dollar, Hahn would make that trade again because the logic was sound behind it.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 03:13 PM) The problem with this is that the game simply doesn't work this way anymore. The traditional idea of a "contention window" is obsolete, for two primary reasons: 1. Free agency is no longer a reliable way to build a winner. Players are peaking earlier, declining quicker, and being signed to pre-arbitration extensions that gobble up their prime years. The "all in" strategy doesn't work when you can't buy enough talent with your money. 2. The best team is no more likely to win the playoffs than any other playoff team. The massive cost required to earn the talent required for an extra few wins above the rest of the field is wasted in October. The best way to win a WS is to maximize the number of chances you can take, not to optimize any particular chance. Therefore, the most sensible goal is to be "in the hunt" every single year. A successful plan to this end is one that sees the team in a state of constant but gradual system-wide improvement. And while our ML teams' records have been disappointing the past couple years, it's tough to argue that we haven't seen "gradual system-wide improvement" in each of those years. The answer is not to gut the system, nor is it to tear down and restock. The answer is to stay the course. I really like this post. A lot of truths here and echos many of the thoughts I've had myself. It's all about a team coming together at the right time and playing better than anyone else at the right time. There is no magical formula other than to stack your deck with as many different chance cards in hopes of them paying off at the right time. The teams that are in the best positions to win now have done it this way...they can win in many different ways thanks to their diversity. There are some REALLY good teams this year and none is a LOCK to win it all in October. You just can't take a 8 month-long season and BANK any sort of guaranteed success in the week or so that the World Series is played. There are too many factors in play.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 11, 2016 -> 09:35 PM) Thompson also had a lot of game-winning hits during that hot streak. Should we take all of those wins of the board, too...because they happened in one "hot stretch"? Couldn't we do that with 80-90% of pitchers and hitters? Let's just put it this way. The Dodgers are confident enough in him, Pederson, Kendrick and eventually Ethier to trade Puig now. I think the main reason LA is considering dumping Puig has less to do with Thompson and more to do with the fact that they are realizing that outside of a 2-month stretch when he debuted, Puig is just not that good. He struggles to stay on the field and he is a PR nightmare. His best asset (in my opinion) is his arm--it's the only skill that stands out. He's never been able to even approach the level of offensive performance he gave when he first joined them. Puig still carries an inflated price tag still based on that magical summer but that window is closing and LA knows it. He puts up Melky Cabrera stats with Miguel Cabrera hype. He's MLB's Jeremy Lin. Puigsanity is over.

Albert Belle 1998 2nd half: 282 ABs 109 Hits .387 AVE 31 HR 86 RBI 61 R 58 XBH .451 OBP .816 SLG 1.267 OPS However he only stole 4 bases, so that tells me the catchers had him figured out. Hence--the reason why he's not on the banner.

QUOTE (oldsox @ Jul 7, 2016 -> 04:02 PM) Not to change the subject, but the subject of one of Hahn's worst moves -- the acquisition of Emilio Bonafacio, surfaced yesterday as Emilio was DFA'd by Braves. Yeah that was a thud! What's even worse is that the Braves ended up with him AND Gordon Beckham!

QUOTE (chisoxfan310 @ Jul 8, 2016 -> 06:28 AM) I love what Tim Anderson has done so far but what is the ideal spot in the batting order for him? If his obp is mostly going to stay close to what his batting average is, he needs to hit like .330 to be considered a good leadoff hitter in my opinion. A .301 obp from your leadoff hitter is not good. Edit: I do know he may make adjustments and become more patient over time but I'm mostly talking for now. You're right...I think Eaton is the best "leadoff hitter" for this team as far as OBP. However, if he's up 2nd, what difference does it make? You still have your top 2 table setters causing havoc at the top of your order--both of them are tough outs and demand attention on the bases. Eaton gets on base more, but we will soon see that Anderson turns singles into doubles QUITE often with his base stealing ability. You can make a case for either. I actually think it is smart for now to have Eaton batting 2nd instead of Anderson because there are so many roles the 2nd spot plays. Hitting first allows Anderson to get up with 1 focus--get on base. Leave the situational hitting up to Eaton to move Anderson over or draw a walk in front of Abreu. If Anderson's power continues to develop and he keeps getting his hits, you might eventually see him hit 3rd in more of a run producer spot. The only other spot you put a low OBP guy is 7-9 and I think you want to see him bat more than that. In my opinion, he's a top of the order guy that you want to maximize his ABs and like you said, over time let him learn to be more selective.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 7, 2016 -> 01:09 PM) The other issue is that he has always had poor command so will it ever get any better? Maybe the Sox just decided that this is what he is and they'll live with it. As I said when he was drafted, his mechanics will lead to command issues and inconsistency. I don't think the last start is much to worry about he looked tired and the break coming up will help that. Probably. I think the issue right now is there is a big difference in what the Sox believe they have now in Rodon and in what they will have in him in a few years. We've seen him get stuck in some ruts and get knocked around for stretches and we've seen him dominate for stretches. Sort of reminds me of a left-handed Gavin Floyd right now with a Jon Lester-type potential.

Also...look at Rodon...many will say he was "rushed." Were his struggles due to him being rushed, or just not being as good as we thought--YET? You put a player where his skill set fits in--not where you'd feel most comfortable seeing him.

QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Jul 7, 2016 -> 08:28 AM) This likely means in August or September. Not a big deal. Not comparing him to Urias with the Dodgers but if/when he comes up it will be in the relievers role because of an innings cap. I am completely fine with this. Let him get a taste of the majors -- plus he should have enough plus stuff out of the bullpen that I'd actually prefer him over some of our guys. I really, really, really never understand this narrative that you "rush" someone. People act like baseball is all psychology. Gordon Beckham didn't suck after year one because he was mentally beat up. He sucked for a plethra of reasons involving his swing and not adjusting to pitchers. Fulmer throws a ball for a living. He's either going to have it or not. Coming up to the majors for a few months in the pen when he's on an innings limit isn't going to change a thing in his development. I tend to agree with you...if you wait for a player to "get comfortable" at each level, then you have to break them and force them to relearn everything about another team's ways every time you move them up. If the skill set is MLB-worthy, then why not put them there where they belong? If you're Mr. Burdi, what difference does it make if you're throwing a 104 mph fastball to some low A prospect or Rajai Davis? The result will likely be the same! I understand in Fulmer's case to keep him down if he has control issues because the skill set doesn't fit the MLB standard. But just for the sake of rushing someone? I don't see it. LeBron and Kobe never spent 3 years in the D-league (let alone college) until they were NBA-ready for the sake of not being "rushed." Even if they HAD weaknesses in their game, their skill set warrants developing at the highest level. LeBron couldn't make free throws...do you keep him in the D-League for 3 years until he figures that out!?!?

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Jul 6, 2016 -> 03:12 PM) Boy, if you could land both of those guys for Quintana, I don't know how you pass that up. The more you read about Moncada, it looks like he is on his way to superstardom. He's a top ten player on just about every top prospect list out there. Huge offensive potential which, the last I looked, that was an attribute sorely missing with the Sox for some time now. The other guy, Benintendi, is also a blue chip prospect with vast offensive potential. You add both of those guys to an offensive core featuring Abreu, Eaton, and now Anderson as well, and that's not looking too shabby from a long term perspective. And then there's Zach Collins looming in the not so distant future, too. So I don't know. Trading Quintana obviously signals a different direction than it would appear the Sox want to go. But maybe in a couple of weeks facts on the ground will dictate a different path they made need to travel. Wasn't he talking about these guys for Sale instead of Quintana?