FT35

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 21, 2016 -> 06:54 AM) What has been the draft budget for the White Sox for the past 30 years? It's either LOWEST, 2nd lowest or 3rd from the bottom depending on which research article you go by. The manager for the White Sox has always been among the lowest paid in the majors, that still hasn't changed. I guess he skipped sending the checks to those having anything to do with hitting/defense/position player development. And I wouldn't be surprised to see Hasler and JR Perdew and Britt Burns and the minor league pitching instructors getting paid more than their peers, because Don Cooper is one of the highest paid pitching coaches in the majors and his minor league staff is also known for being excellent in this regard of preparation/instruction/development. If our scouts were so highly paid, then why they have been so terrible at their jobs for the last decade? And when I read about scouting departments, almost every team in the majors has a more extensive network than ours, particularly in Latin America. There's no way we haven't been in the bottom 25-30% over the last twenty years in TOTAL DOLLARS SPENT ON SCOUTING, both advanced scouting, amateur/collegiate and Latin American scouting. This is spot on...if what Dick Allen is saying is true--which I believe it is...JR probably DID dump a lot of $ into his system at one point. However, the results have not quantified those dollars spent. And if our system IS as good as JR thinks it is or is paying for...then WHY ON EARTH do we keep trading these guys away before they make it up!?!? Where are they!?!?!? Outside of Chris Sale (granted, he's a rare talent and Chris Sales don't come around often), we really haven't drafted well. You have Semien and Trayce...but really those guys aren't exactly MVP candidates. For every Trayce, there are 50 Brent Morels.....

You can see the logic behind most of what he does...but the team is far from benefiting from anything he does. It's the logic that JR is looking for to keep him in his position. Now, I don't like bringing in washed up vets to take playing time away from younger players, but Hahn did that in positions of need (SS, till Timmy was ready), starting rotation (because none of our prospects have exactly taken their MLB opportunities by storm quite yet and Fulmer isn't ready), and DH (because chances are you're not going to put a top prospect in the DH role unless they trade for Kyle Schwarber!) So far Hahn has fallen in love with the MLB roster band aid fix. He's throwing money at the positions of need. I get it...but I think he would be well served by CUTTING the MLB roster payroll and dumping a good chunk of those dollars into his scouting and MiLB talent/player development personnel. Think how far 25 million would go in assembling a team of some of the best scouts, talent evaluators, player development coaches etc. Think about it...we've got 27M being invested in a James Shields project right now where the payoff is he rediscovers his form and wins 9 games for us from here on out. How many wins could we generate over the years by beefing up other areas of our organization besides our MLB roster? It's fun playing GM. haha

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 11:14 AM) I think AJ as a manager would end up like Matt Williams for the Nationals. It wouldn't take very long for the players to tune him out and make him lose the clubhouse. Lol NOBODY likes AJ... well except for Hawk. Ozzie said it best while he was managing "Everybody hates AJ... we just hate him a little less" ? I do love AJ! I admit it! I'm from Ft. Wayne and watched him start his career here with our minor league team--then in the Minnesota organization. He was a punk then and still is but I love the guy. But I do think we need a MANAGER. Most managers were once players, but I think it's time for someone with more managing success than playing experience.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 11:18 AM) Well then what is the deal with Shields. Was that totally JR? Was it KW, was it Hahn? I think it was all 3. I really don't see where anyone can come to the conclusion that Hahn wants to blow it up. Has he ever hinted it? I think it is just people who want the White Sox to blow it up who are hoping beyond hope Rick Hahn agrees with them. I don't think he does, and my source, which is nobody, is just as good as the source that says he wants to get rid of everyone. It's still a mystery. I'd like to point blame too but Shields had 1 bad start in SD and all of a sudden all of the positive that he had done in his career was forgotten and everyone is lauding the scouts who passed. Like they knew he would not be able to get ANYONE out. Are the good scouts the ones who say "no way" to an otherwise solid pitcher after 1 bad start? Or are our guys doing the right thing by saying..let's buy low on this guy because of his multi-year track record of success--he'll turn it around? The only way I'm coming down on our Shields scouts is if they overlooked something else MAJOR going on in his life that is causing this or an injury. What on earth did they miss?? Is it a Chuck Knoblauch case where an all-star player, for some unknown reason, forgets how to throw the ball to 1st base? I agree--our system is broken, but anyway you look at it, you can find decent logic behind the decisions that are made!! I just can't figure it out and it's driving me nuts!!

Yeah but can we all agree that a FA signing should never be the foundation of your team over a developed core of players? Use free agency to land the 1 player that puts the team over the top or to fill the 1 position that your system isn't going to produce anytime soon. I feel like they use free agency to as a time to develop a new identity for a team each year depending on who's available--free agency is this team's farm system and it's ridiculously more expensive! It's like eating fast food every meal--(yeah I'm guilty of this too...)

I think Rick Hahn is the most interesting part of this. He somehow makes these deals that at the time, seem OK, if not decent moves for us then they turn out to be absolute nightmares. If you're a true White Sox fan, you can't honestly say that the last couple Hot Stove seasons haven't been exciting to follow. Watching us land top free agent talent the last 2 years has given us hope. It wasn't too long ago where we were all like "Wow...not just Jeff Samardzija, but David Robertson TOO!? Holy crap! Nice LH power bat--LaRoche. Then days later--Melky Cabrera!? Then last year, Todd freaking Frazier--still in his prime years?! Nice grab of Lawrie--not really costing us much and plugging a hole. He gets great write ups from good sports writers talking about how he's doing such a great job with what little he has to work with and has landed some solid names at bargain prices while not giving up much--Thompson and Montas being the most notable--but he's been able to keep Fulmer, Anderson and a few others. These free agents and trade target guys succeed elsewhere, then get here and FLOP--every time. People then turn to guys like Robin and point the fingers. But really there is a fundamental problem...a "corner" that we are backing ourselves into and that is this: We are trying to piece together a team based on who is available in the FREE AGENT market each year instead of drafting well and developing a core of players. This strategy RARELY works and takes such a deep pocket to even employ that only a few teams can support (Boston/New York). The argument can be made--well the guys we've given up haven't been that great (with the exception of Trayce), but they are forgetting that there's value in developing a core group of young talent at the single A level, keeping them together and moving that core of players up through the system until they reach the bigs. From the very beginning, the players always feel a part of the bigger plan and develop a sense of belonging to that plan and the other players in that plan. All it takes is 1 of those core players to get the big league call and it starts an all-out frenzy from the other core prospects to be next. They see their friend get up and they believe in the system and what it holds for THEM. You have strength in that core group--in other words--the beginnings of a TEAM. (Insert soft patriotic music playing in the background). Every time we deal for a MLB vet, it usually costs us 1-3 pieces of our potential core. It also takes a job away from someone who has spent years in the minors working towards that position. They are always a victim of the depth chart--mentally messed up because they have been talked up (to increase buzz and trade value) but then watch old or underachieving MLB vets like Jimmy Rollins, Austin Jackson and Mat Latos move in and take their job right as camp breaks in to the regular season. Don't think that most players in our farm system don't realize that they are essentially bait the way our front office works. They disconnect from the plan early--and even our top prospects have in the back of their minds that our organization is bad enough that drastic measures take place frequently--even THEY are not safe. You never have a "Core" anything at any level. You never have a group of guys who develop together with a "let's stick together and conquer the world" mentality that forms when you're making $300/month, sleeping on bus floors in the minors. You see guys putting their time in to essentially get traded to an organization where they CAN be a part of something bigger--not just to be a throw in name in a deal for an under-achieving stop gap 2nd baseman. But that's the corner we are in. Only salvaging the MLB roster matters for us--trying to put together a "sellable" attraction to this summer's fans. Meanwhile, you have nothing but a collection of broken (yet expensive) parts and no ecosystem to foster any type of growth at any level in your organization. Their day-to-day approach rules the decisions made--if we lose, we go get someone else, if we win, we keep them--there is no commitment to the future. There's never room on the MLB roster that is reserved for a core group of players developed by the organization.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 17, 2016 -> 07:04 AM) Breakout or fluke? Padres trying to trade him at what they think is peak value. Smart move especially for a team that wont win for a few years. Sox need an outfielder who also plays plus D anyway if they are going to give up prospects. I actually think Myers is more breakout than fluke--but still an injury risk. He was so highly-touted coming up, then had long stretches of success only to be derailed by injuries--some pretty serious which require rehab that would effect his performance for a while. He's always been a high-ceiling player when healthy and now he's showing it once again. One thing for sure, the power is real. I think it would be a good get for us...but man...I'm with all of you who question the cost--especially for his 3 years of control. Unless Avi would be a part of the deal?? Or maybe Saladino, to back up Ramirez--again--before maybe taking over next year??

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Jun 15, 2016 -> 03:41 PM) Carroll has turned into a legitimate pumpkin. No reason he should ever see Chicago ever again. Agree...I'm not sold on Carroll but like the concept of him being up to mop up so Albers and Jennings can stick to their strengths--power arms or match-up specialists. Neither is as effective coming off a 2-inning appearance. Seems as though Robin is just as content using position players to cover those mop up innings! The agony.

You'd think, that going into the season with a roster featuring the likes of Latos, Gonzalez, Danks, a young Rodon, the Erik Johnson project and now a struggling Shields, over the course of the season, it might be a good idea to invest a roster spot (or 2) in long-relief arms??? Many of these-caliber SPs could be "off" on any given night and require an early hook yet the leader in innings pitched out of our pen this year is Dan Jennings...acquired to be a lefty specialist--averaging just over 1 inning per appearance. Everyone else is mostly a strict 1-inning guy. The issue is 2-fold...not only do you blow your bullpen arms by covering 5 innings on a wild night by your starter, but you're forced to leave in that wild starter WAY too long (to save the pen)--further decreasing your chances of winning even more. Seems these types of situations are abundant these days. Good defense limits pitch counts as well--a good thought to keep in mind as we continue to run out defensive liabilities Garcia, Melky, a very young, unpolished SS in Anderson (although offensively talented). There are many ways our starters could run into trouble!! Do we have any long relief arms in the system? Anyone come to mind as a possible acquisition?

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 15, 2016 -> 02:27 PM) Well, there's no place for a lot of horrifying s*** women do to men too, but I don't want to send this one to the filibuster, so I'll leave it there. I simply can NOT argue with you about this point!!!

QUOTE (iamshack @ Jun 15, 2016 -> 02:13 PM) Oh who gives a s***? These guys aren't your friends. We are men, who cheer for other men in silly outfits to play a game against other men in silly outfits. You aren't endorsing their character or their behavior off the field by cheering for them to win a game. To some extent, you're correct. However, REAL men should not cheer for men who beat women. There's no place for that. I believe in forgiveness, but also think they have lost the privilege to be cheered for.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 14, 2016 -> 03:50 AM) So you still think the Sox would have won had Ventura remained in the game? His biggest supporter around here didn't believe this to be the case...thought we would lose regardless of who was managing. I'm with ya! Hard to predict a win down 7-0! Someone posted on ESPN how the Sox are 3-0 in games managed by Renteria this year...I can't say that completely fuels the Robin being fired argument though. First off, it's small sample size, then you can say his ejections have been timed well and fired up the team to win 3 times...haha. Management is probably looking for any reason they can to add credit for RV at this point, but it's kind of true? An ejection does fire up a team if timed correctly. Maybe those 3 wins cover up the travesty that happened in KC a couple weeks ago??? LOL

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jun 13, 2016 -> 02:01 PM) The fact is, if you manage a bad team, you will have a bad record. If you think the White Sox are a bad team, no manager is going to make them a good one. True fact! But how bad are we? Individually, our guys have been successful on both good teams and bad. Robertson was a stud on a good Yankees team, Frazier was a stud on a bad Reds team, Melky played well on some decent teams. LaRoche played well for a good Nationals team. Sale has been GREAT on some awful teams! This is probably the best starting 5 that either of our catchers have caught in their careers--both have been somewhat successful on other teams. You can go on! Collectively, our good players do not play well together. So you have to ask, what keeps that from happening? A good manager would not make our current team a good one overnight, but a good manager WOULD improve the culture of the team and you'd like to think that would lead to a higher probability of success over time and a higher expectation for new blood coming into the organization.

QUOTE (South Sider @ Jun 13, 2016 -> 01:01 PM) I would love to be proven wrong, but the Sox just continue to embarrass themselves against divisional opponents and I don't really see that changing aside from the few series the Sox will eventually win. It's been said before and bears repeating: This is not an organization with a winning culture. As much as I'd love to see the Sox right the ship here and win the division or make it to the playoffs, I think that most of us are thinking that Robin and his management team are going to be unable to get this team ready to defeat the Tigers, Indians and Royals. If you can't beat them, you can't make it to the playoffs barring some insane luck. A good team in a tricky slump would have found a way to put their foot down and gone .500 in all the recent games against divisional rivals. Why? Because they are the guys you want to beat. Instead, the Sox have let this slump turn into a death spiral with seemingly no end in sight. I fully believe the team will get hot again, possibly go on another tear and get themselves back into the divisional race, but there is one common denominator that we all dread that has been a theme of the White Sox of recent times: That they will find ways to lose against their main competition. Momentum may or may not be a real thing in sports, but confidence is, and I believe the Sox have given the Indians, Tigers, and Royals all the confidence they will ever need against them. When you couple that with an apparent lack of confidence from the Sox end, it's easy to see that failure is imminent. Obviously, Robin is part of the problem, and it is definitely time for him to go. But who or what else is contributing to the problem? Do KW/RH lack the ability to hold their employees accountable and create a new organizational culture? Do players despise KW and their hatred for him affects their ability to play to their highest potential? Is Don Cooper too set in his ways? What exactly has Todd Steverson and his hitters been trying to do to improve their hitting? What is wrong with the players? Are none of our players strong leaders? I have hundreds of questions! I'd love to eat some nasty crow, but I think the Sox are toast. The arrivals of Chris Sale and Jose Abreu could have rejuvenated the organization, but did not. The hot start of this year was certainly deceiving because we are not used to hot starts. We are used to mid-season hot streaks that bring us close to .500, but not a hot start. It was nice, but has been proven to be nothing more than a regular hot streak just at a different part of the season. Moreover, and bash me all you want for this, but I am DONE with this version of the White Sox. This JR/KW/RH/RV/DC clown show. As a diehard fan, I am ready for significant organizational change and I know I probably will not get it. Unless magic and miracles really can happen, I won't be attending another Sox game this year. We vote with our dollars. Ideally, Jerry finally sells the team and the new owner makes changes across the board. The grass isn't always greener on the other side, but this grass here hasn't been cut in a long time and at least the grass over there will be freshly mowed. If Jerry doesn't sell the team, he needs to launch almost everyone in a management position and surround himself with new people (yeah right). These are dark days for the White Sox and their fans. They are going to lose tons of new baseball fans to the now amazing Cubs organization, revenue will continue to fall as more and more fans reach decisions like mine and there will seemingly always be a complete failure from the owner and his management team to instill a winning culture. I love watching the game of baseball, but if I want to watch bad baseball I'll go see the Kane County Cougars and save a bunch of money. Right now it just completely sucks to be a fan of this organization, but one day things will finally change. I just hope it is sooner rather than later. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly! As a die hard...it's not what we want. We have poured our hearts and souls into players like Adam Dunn, LaRoche and Garcia in the same way we have pulled for guys like Sale and Abreu. We wanted to see ALL players succeed here. Some did, some didn't, but it didn't change the fact that we wanted them all to be successful. We wanted this to be a different story...we wanted to see Robin Ventura carry our team back to the series. It just didn't happen! Not only did it not happen, but our whole organization has decayed greatly while waiting for it to happen. I keep saying...for the fans to believe in the management again anytime soon, it will take another championship with these guys on the field--like NOW...this year. Let them have their "told you so" moment and we will start to believe again. They better be SURE this is what they want to ride their ship down. Most people gave up 2 years ago when they saw the writing on the wall. Management keeps riding the ship down by adding more and more players...it's like the poker addict who runs out of $ and throws the deed to his house on the table, then his wedding ring...it's sad....especially when he's bluffing and everyone at the table knows it. Lipstick on a pig.

QUOTE (soxfan49 @ Jun 13, 2016 -> 11:49 AM) The Sox have a power hitting 1B, a solid 2B, a serviceable #3? Hmm. I must be watching another team this year. There are vast differences. Arrieta's better than Sale, and Bryant and Rizzo for Abreu and Frazier (despite ages) is a trade that would never happen because the Cubs would laugh at the Sox. Yes you must be watching a different team. The White Sox have a power hitting first baseman (Abreu has hit 66 HRs in 2014-15 (2nd only to Chris Davis in HRs by a 1st baseman in all of baseball since he's been in the league, Rizzo has hit 63 over that same time--I'd qualify that as comparable power numbers--and if you call Abreu a non-power hitting 1st baseman you have to call Rizzo and well...everyone else besides Chris Davis a non-power hitting 1st baseman), a solid 2nd baseman (Lawrie's WAR last season was 1.9...Zobrist's was 1.9...again...that is somewhat comparable to what the Cubs are running out) and despite a couple recent starts, a serviceable #3 starter over his entire career despite the decline (Last 5 years average WAR- Lackey 1.78. -Shields 3.22--there's an edge there considering Lackey had a 5.6 WAR last year that kept him from being a 0 WAR player over this stretch). Also Sale has been dominant since he came into the league in 2010, Jake Arrieta has been dominant for 2 years despite very little success in Baltimore. So I wouldn't say the differences are too vast there. No one suggested a a Rizzo and Bryant for Abreu and Frazier trade--age and player controlability alone would not make this deal possible. I'm simply saying that the skill sets are comparable from position to position. You simply solidified the main point of my post. On paper, the White Sox should get MUCH better results on the field than they do, when you look at what these guys are actually doing, they DO look like another team--but the skill and the numbers are there. The biggest difference is the culture of the 2 teams.

The argument about the players not getting it done is valid when thinking about whether Robin is to blame. They need to play better...got it. But what IS on Robin's plate is playing a large part in establishing a winning culture within the organization--developing the mindset of the team, the mental approach to the daily grind, the player's psyche, creating a culture of winning. Look at the organizations that have had that no matter what players are on the field...St. Louis, San Francisco, Texas, usually the Yankees and Red Sox--minus the occasional outliner year. These franchises have winning cultures. The players change, but the results usually produce a winning season. The White Sox have had that...they were one of the top win% teams in the 90's and have had many solid years since, but the winning culture has dissolved into a survival culture--a "what else could go wrong" culture. Whether Robin is solely responsible for taking them there is debatable...whether he's a great baseball guy is not the question...I'm sure he is--we all loved him when he played here...but the fact is, the culture has dissolved into what it is under his leadership and it needs to change. No matter how much talent is put around him, he's not able to tap into players' full potential and ability. Out of the 4 years he's been here...there have only been short periods of time where everyone was pulling on the same end of the rope. The result was the ability to win. However, MOST of the time, we see too much of the hitting being on one day and off another...usually negatively corresponding with the days the pitching is on or off...it's all the evidence of a group of players who are responding as individuals and not as a cohesive unit--TEAM. When this happens in all other sports, the manager is the first to be held accountable--especially after a 4 year sample size of the same thing and a fan base who is beyond frustrated with it all. I hate to bring up the Cubs when talking about the Sox because they are so different. But just look at Joe Maddon--he has that team believing that they will win every day. On the days they don't, he has them believing they will win the next game. He's been a good manager wherever he's been. Look at the Sox and Cubs rosters on paper and you will see many similarities. Power hitting 1st baseman, solid 2nd baseman with some versatility, young talented SS prospect, power hitting 3rd baseman, a couple decent offensive/defensive OFers, 2 experienced catchers, an off the charts Ace, a VERY solid #2 starter, a veteran (past their prime, but still serviceable) #3 starter, a young, unproven #4 with upside, and a serviceable #5, both have decent bullpens and a good closer. How are there VAST differences between the 2 teams in the win column? One has a manager who has helped establish a winning culture, one does not. I would LOVE to see what someone credible could do with this team before they blew it up and started over.