Abreu and Frazier

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Plenty of players and teams pass on home run derby.

 

How do you know it has no bearing? Pure coincidence he tanked last year after the HRD? 4 days of rest can't possibly help a ballplayer in a year long funk? Especially when the alternative is a high energy game? Really? I Dont know if there is causation- but there's a lot of correlation.

I don't hold any bitterness toward Frazier as I never thought he as anything special. He hasn't overly disappointed me. But you might look in the mirror on the bitterness front.

My wishful thinking was it'd loosen him up and make him play better.

[ron883]

I'd slap them both on the block. Frazier can be replaced with lawrie/saladino without a big dropoff. Abreu isn't what we thought he was. 2014 was a fluke. He got figured out. See if any team will overpay for him.

[greg775]

I might have worded it poorly, but we're just not going to agree on this. If a guy is playing horribly and killing his team, I don't appreciate seeing him ham it up at a pointless exhibition during a potential break.

I'm as big an internet message board dick as anybody, but even I disagree with this. Cmon, let him have some fun in the Home Run Derby. It was good to see a White Sox in the final. I don't think it harmed anybody. I don't think it probably hurt Frazier at all.

 

My wishful thinking was it'd loosen him up and make him play better.

Good way of looking at it. The greatness in the dugouts could also rub off on him. Let's face it. The White Sox are at a low point in their history right now. Not a contender and far from being a contender since Robin's first year. We've had 3-4 years of suckiness. Nice to see some positive press for the White Sox at the HR Derby.

[Insp]

These are 2 completely different players.

 

Frazier is a completely selfish, worthless piece of garbage who needs to be gotten rid of immediately.

 

Abreu, on the other hand, is a guy whose BA is 25 points lower than hat it should be and who has not been a clutch hitter as in the past. He did it in the past and if given time and patience can do it again. Best to lower him in the batting order and then leave him alone.

[caulfield12]

Selfish piece of garbage? He might be the most popular and most well-respected teammate of anyone in the entire organization.

 

Perhaps the best overall since Pierre in terms of work ethic, swagger and positive attributes.

 

 

 

 

[hogan873]

Should probably change the thread title to Calling All Trolls.

 

Abreu has been getting better consistently since his bad start. He may not be hitting as many home runs, but he's hitting line drives to all parts of the field. Frazier is what he is. I'd like to see a better BA from him, but he is a three outcome guy. What makes him more valuable than say Dunn is his defense and what he brings as a teammate.

 

It's easy to look at the guys in the middle of the lineup and say they're at fault when a team is struggling, but they are not the only reason the Sox scored one run in four games. A team has bigger problems than two guys when they reach that level of suck.

[southsider2k5]

Plenty of players and teams pass on home run derby.

 

How do you know it has no bearing? Pure coincidence he tanked last year after the HRD? 4 days of rest can't possibly help a ballplayer in a year long funk? Especially when the alternative is a high energy game? Really? I Dont know if there is causation- but there's a lot of correlation.

I don't hold any bitterness toward Frazier as I never thought he as anything special. He hasn't overly disappointed me. But you might look in the mirror on the bitterness front.

 

You are the one angry at the guy and having a public meltdown about him in the home run derby.

 

Instead of four days of rest, he got 3. Damn you extra day!

 

Honestly the reality is that the HRD probably isn't the problem. The reality is that the guys who are in it had the biggest home run totals in the first half of the season. In many cases those numbers are unsustainable, and they regress to the norms in the second half. Some people blame things like the home run derby for messing up their swings. Others would say that a guy with a career high of 35 homers in a season, probably isn't going to carry a season long pace of 50ish homers. Many people just point to the HRD as it sticks in their mind, instead of statistical regression.

[southsider2k5]

Selfish piece of garbage? He might be the most popular and most well-respected teammate of anyone in the entire organization.

 

Perhaps the best overall since Pierre in terms of work ethic, swagger and positive attributes.

 

Why let facts get in the way of a good old fashioned irrational rant. Because I mean calling someone out is way more important than actually being right.

[oldsox]

I have a different slant on the HRD. I don't like it; I don't watch it. Therefore, it doesn't exist. Kinda like the tree falling in the forest with no one around. Makes no noise.

 

Now, Southsider's Batting Average Derby might be more compelling to watch.

[Lillian]

I've never liked the concept of "batting practice," because seeing slow pitches, from a shorter distance, does nothing to help the hitter's eye to become accustomed to the type of pitches, which he will see in a game. If anything, it could be detrimental. Several years ago, I wrote an article about it, and gave it to Greg Walker, who was then the Sox hitting coach. He agreed with me, but it's hard to break baseball tradition.

 

The point is that the Home Run Derby is much too much of that potentially detrimental activity. Not only are the pitches not representative of what a batter sees, but the swings are not the kind that he should be taking in a game. So much of hitting is timing and getting the eye trained to follow, and see pitches. The more rounds and pitches that a contestant sees in the Derby, the more likely he is to screw up both his timing and his swing.

 

At this point, I'd like to see Frazier take a day, or two off, just look at some regular pitches and then start taking BP in the cages, off a pitching machine, throwing MLB caliber pitches. Maybe he could stand in the "box," just to look at the pitches, during one of the starter's side sessions, out in the bullpen. This guy has had a bad swing all season long, and all those pitches in the Derby likely did little to fix it. His homer, or strike out approach couldn't have been helped by the Derby. The last thing a guy needs, who is leading his team in homers, but last in average and OBP, is to be participating in the Home Run Derby.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Lillian

[bmags]

Wait what?

[hogan873]

I've never liked the concept of "batting practice," because seeing slow pitches, from a shorter distance, does nothing to help the hitter's eye to become accustomed to the type of pitches, which he will see in a game. If anything, it could be detrimental. Several years ago, I wrote an article about it, and gave it to Greg Walker, who was then the Sox hitting coach. He agreed with me, but it's hard to break baseball tradition.

 

The point is that the Home Run Derby is much too much of that potentially detrimental activity. Not only are the pitches not representative of what a batter sees, but the swings are not the kind that he should be taking in a game. So much of hitting is timing and getting the eye trained to follow, and see pitches. The more rounds and pitches that a contestant sees in the Derby, the more likely he is to screw up both his timing and his swing.

 

At this point, I'd like to see Frazier take a day, or two off, just look at some regular pitches and then start taking BP in the cages, off a pitching machine, throwing MLB caliber pitches. Maybe he could stand in the "box," just to look at the pitches, during one of the starter's side sessions, out in the bullpen. This guy has had a bad swing all season long, and all those pitches in the Derby likely did little to fix it. His homer, or strike out approach couldn't have been helped by the Derby. The last thing a guy needs, who is leading his team in homers, but last in average and OBP, is to be participating in the Home Run Derby.

I won't argue any points about the Home Run Derby. I see both good and bad with it, and one could always argue that it screws up the participants for the rest of the season. However, batting practice is a valuable part of a hitter's training every day. Tee work, side toss, soft toss, BP fastballs...it's all stuff hitters do each day. Slower pitches from a shorter distance are, in my opinion, more effective than a pitching machine. Live pitching is more effective because of the variation in location and speed. Besides, some extended BP hitting (like the home run derby) isn't going to destroy a hitter because the pitching is slower.

[Lillian]

I won't argue any points about the Home Run Derby. I see both good and bad with it, and one could always argue that it screws up the participants for the rest of the season. However, batting practice is a valuable part of a hitter's training every day. Tee work, side toss, soft toss, BP fastballs...it's all stuff hitters do each day. Slower pitches from a shorter distance are, in my opinion, more effective than a pitching machine. Live pitching is more effective because of the variation in location and speed. Besides, some extended BP hitting (like the home run derby) isn't going to destroy a hitter because the pitching is slower.

 

Well, that has always been conventional baseball wisdom. However, as a counter argument, think about this: Conventional baseball wisdom also asserts that it is easier to hit a pitcher, the second or third time through the lineup. That notion is based upon the concept that the hitter can begin to get accustomed to what the pitcher is throwing. If that's true, how does hitting BP fastballs, from a shorter distance, off the mound, help the hitter to get "accustomed" to anything?. It takes the hitter's eye a little while to get used to the speed of the ball. While a BP fastball, thrown from a shorter distance, may approximate the reaction time, the speed, at which the pitch is traveling is vastly different. Major League hitters have the bat speed to catch up to high 90's pitches. However, their eyes require some adjustment to pick up the ball, if they have just been looking at pitches traveling 70 miles an hour.

 

Several years ago, in my 50's, we owned a Atec Casey, Pro pitching machine. The boys used to take a lot of batting practice. I couldn't resist and spent many hours, for several years, hitting with the family. I didn't have strong enough hands to catch up to the fastest pitches, but did pretty well with the off speed stuff, including the curve balls and sliders. What originally got me thinking about the subject of the article, to which I referred, was that I noticed how hard it was for my eyes to adjust to the faster pitches, after looking at off speed stuff. I could eventually see a 90 mile an hour fast ball, on any given day, but not until seeing several of them, especially after seeing a lot of slower pitches. So, while my lack of strength and bat speed made it difficult to hit the "heaters," my eyes could at least get used to the higher velocity pitches, but not immediately. Each new session required seeing several fastballs, before my eyes could pick it up. I've spoken to lots of guys who have played baseball, and they agreed with my observation.

 

In much the same way, after looking a several fast balls, a curve ball almost appeared to be traveling in slow motion. It was hard to wait on those pitches, which seemed to take forever to reach the plate. I found them very easy to hit. Of course, I knew they were coming, so I was able to keep my front shoulder in, and not "bail" on the balls that broke from inside, into the strike zone. The eyes had to adjust to the speed, in either case.

 

[Lip Man 1]

"I say one thing, it’s not going to last forever. Nobody needs to stand at their locker and say ‘hey we haven’t scored in as many innings’ but what is there left to do but to go grind your at-bat out and take your chances at it?"---hitting coach Todd Steverson to the Sun-Times.

 

Inspiring words no? LOL.

 

Mark

[Dick Allen]

Well, that has always been conventional baseball wisdom. However, as a counter argument, think about this: Conventional baseball wisdom also asserts that it is easier to hit a pitcher, the second or third time through the lineup. That notion is based upon the concept that the hitter can begin to get accustomed to what the pitcher is throwing. If that's true, how does hitting BP fastballs, from a shorter distance, off the mound, help the hitter to get "accustomed" to anything?. It takes the hitter's eye a little while to get used to the speed of the ball. While a BP fastball, thrown from a shorter distance, may approximate the reaction time, the speed, at which the pitch is traveling is vastly different. Major League hitters have the bat speed to catch up to high 90's pitches. However, their eyes require some adjustment to pick up the ball, if they have just been looking at pitches traveling 70 miles an hour.

 

Several years ago, in my 50's, we owned a Atec Casey, Pro pitching machine. The boys used to take a lot of batting practice. I couldn't resist and spent many hours, for several years, hitting with the family. I didn't have strong enough hands to catch up to the fastest pitches, but did pretty well with the off speed stuff, including the curve balls and sliders. What originally got me thinking about the subject of the article, to which I referred, was that I noticed how hard it was for my eyes to adjust to the faster pitches, after looking at off speed stuff. I could eventually see a 90 mile an hour fast ball, on any given day, but not until seeing several of them, especially after seeing a lot of slower pitches. So, while my lack of strength and bat speed made it difficult to hit the "heaters," my eyes could at least get used to the higher velocity pitches, but not immediately. Each new session required seeing several fastballs, before my eyes could pick it up. I've spoken to lots of guys who have played baseball, and they agreed with my observation.

 

In much the same way, after looking a several fast balls, a curve ball almost appeared to be traveling in slow motion. It was hard to wait on those pitches, which seemed to take forever to reach the plate. I found them very easy to hit. Of course, I knew they were coming, so I was able to keep my front shoulder in, and not "bail" on the balls that broke from inside, into the strike zone. The eyes had to adjust to the speed, in either case.

FYI, 70 MPH from 46 feet is the equivalent of 92 MPH from regular distance. You would absolutely kill your pitching staff if you had them throw BP like a game.

[GreenSox]

You are the one angry at the guy and having a public meltdown about him in the home run derby.

 

Instead of four days of rest, he got 3. Damn you extra day!

 

Honestly the reality is that the HRD probably isn't the problem. The reality is that the guys who are in it had the biggest home run totals in the first half of the season. In many cases those numbers are unsustainable, and they regress to the norms in the second half. Some people blame things like the home run derby for messing up their swings. Others would say that a guy with a career high of 35 homers in a season, probably isn't going to carry a season long pace of 50ish homers. Many people just point to the HRD as it sticks in their mind, instead of statistical regression.

For years, I've badmouthed that gratuitous exhibition that serves mainly as a showcase for Berman to utter another hundred cliches. Nothing new.

Yes, some regression can be expected...but Frazier had a meltdown last year. I thought it obvious that the Sox should pass on Frazier's participation in that..

Any bitterness I have is toward Sox management that still runs the club like summer camp, and seems to make personnel decisions without any real plan at all, except that they way prefer veterans, of any talent level.

Edited July 19, 2016 by GreenSox

[ronkark]

While many are to blame. Our 3-4 hitters or whatever order thare in - are most worthy of scorn.

 

First: Abreu. Run production is job one. The Saturday game typified his season. Single and double with no one on base. Then runner at 2nd, no outs, he grounds out weekly, not even advancing runner. Then with a runner on in another inning, a K. He is BAD at defense. Not average. BAD. Errors or not, balls go under or just over his glove on a regular basis. HIs footwork is awful. How many times does he drift into baseline to catch a ball. He can't scoop hops. Limited range. BAD. He also has no speed. He also doesn't walk very much. So he HAS to hit. Yet he sits there, doesn't adjust and is garbage. I woul dbet prob one of the worst #3 hitters in baseball. And oh by the way. ,has a doughy body that will not age well or IS not aging well as he is not a kid. Meanwhile Morneau rides the pine and will never play first? Why? Abreu costs you runs out there.

 

Frazier: This is simply the Chicago hex. Pattern. Dunn on downside, LaRoche on downside. Frazier on downside. Only his upside isn't amazing. Power yes. But look at his second half last year. AWful. We banked on turn around. Well, he's worse. Much worse. LaRoche look at last year before we got him. Same thing. Strong start, awful 2nd half, we pick him up. Frazier swing for fences everytime and chases garbage. It's embarrassing. .210? Really? After the Dunn/LaRoche sagas? Unbelievable.

 

And Robertson well, we clearly keep paying the wrong guys. You can;t leave your starter out to dry like he did tonight. Althought Navarro, another bad pickup, had the awful frame job which cost him a key K and added a runner.

[ron883]

I agree on sentiments. Hopefully Frazier will be overvalued by some GMs due to his homeruns. Abreu though.. I think he is done. Maybe he lied about his age, but he is just extremely disappointing. Abreu has lost me as a fan. He needs to step up or I'm tossing his jersey

[Panerista]

Frazier: This is simply the Chicago hex. Pattern. Dunn on downside, LaRoche on downside. Frazier on downside. Only his upside isn't amazing. Power yes. But look at his second half last year. AWful. We banked on turn around. Well, he's worse. Much worse. LaRoche look at last year before we got him. Same thing. Strong start, awful 2nd half, we pick him up. Frazier swing for fences everytime and chases garbage. It's embarrassing. .210? Really? After the Dunn/LaRoche sagas? Unbelievable.

You could have left out that bold sentence and I would have taken this more seriously. Hexes and curses are for bad Cubs fans.

 

We gambled on a Frazier turnaround. While we lost, at least the guy is hitting for power.

[Kyyle23]

if only we had a thread about Abreu and Frazier before this

[Quin]

Merging this with the exact same thread 5 topics down.

[The Mighty Mite]

I'm really down on Abreu, he's out of shape, can't field and is slower than Konerko. All that plus if he's 28, I'm a monkey's uncle.

I'd like to see Frazier at first base, Lawrie at 3rd and Saladino at second. Abreu can DH along with Morneau.

Edited July 20, 2016 by The Mighty Mite

[Quin]

I'm really down on Abreu, he's out of shape, can't field and is slower than Konerko. All that plus if he's 28, I'm a monkey's uncle.

I'd like to see Frazier at first base, Lawrie at 3rd and Saladino at second. Abreu can DH along with Morneau.

 

He's definitely not slower than Paulie.

 

And you'd play Saladino at 3rd in this case.

[lasttriptotulsa]

I'm really down on Abreu, he's out of shape, can't field and is slower than Konerko. All that plus if he's 28, I'm a monkey's uncle.

I'd like to see Frazier at first base, Lawrie at 3rd and Saladino at second. Abreu can DH along with Morneau.

 

1. Abreu could run circles around Konerko. That's not even debatable.

 

2. You're right, he's not 28, he's 29.

 

3. Abreu has a .307/.353/.490 slash line since June 1. Not amazing, but pretty good.

[pettie4sox]

Abreu is recovering from that brutal start but he's gotta start bopping again and hitting with RISP. I think both the 3-4 hitters this year have been incompetent.