White sox may be reconsidering their stance of being non sellers

[shipps]

Are there teams who need catching help? I could see a contender looking at either of our catchers and it making sense for us to move them. Not saying we get much, but we might get a AA relief arm who could be a quality reliever. Avila has a 1 WAR in limited playing time (and a great OBP) so I presume there would be some value there.

 

Navarro is tougher, but you could still maybe take a flyer on a lower level guy with a big arm or something.

 

I think you are on to something with that. These are all going to be gambles. Its like losing everything on what you thought was a cant miss poker hand (what you get for Q) and then going to hit a jackpot on a dollar slot machine (Navarro). You have to have your bets all around and maybe, just maybe you will land some winners through each gambling route.

[Dick Allen]

So what happens if they do a full rebuild? Does it matter if they go from 5th worst in attendance to dead last?

 

2012 - 24th

2013 - 24th

2014 - 28th

2015 - 26th

2016 - 26th

 

The Royals who have less resources than what the Sox have, had sucked balls for a long time, in 2010 they traded their young Cy Young winner in Zach Greinke who was under team control for 2 more seasons. That didn't sit well with their fans. They netted Cain and Escobar, and used Odorizzi as part of a package to get them Shields and Wade Davis. Couple that with their drafting of Hosmer, Moustakas, and Gordon and bam they had a team that went from awful to losing a WS and then winning one. In small market KC. KC also had some big misses on high draft choices as well during that span. Top 5 picks of Cristian Colon, Bubba Starling, and Kyle Zimmer have not done much if anything. If they had hit on their top picks in the 2010-12 drafts they would be in the playoffs again this year, even with all of their injuries.

 

KC's attendance went like this:

 

2009 - 26th

2010 - 25th (Greinke traded in offseason)

2011 - 27th

2012 - 25th

2013 - 26th

2014 - 25th

2015 - 10th

2016 - 11th

 

Their attendance stayed virtually the same, until all that young talent came through for them. Now they have 30K at every game for a .500 team.

 

The White Sox attendance will drop, as will their revenue and people will be wondering why they aren't breaking the bank giving teenagers millions.

KC's rebuild took about 20 years.

It doesn't just snap back unless a WS or 2 become involved.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Dick Allen

[captain54]

Good. I don't want a realistic shot for years. Stock up on first round picks for a few years, draft a good starter, develop Rodon/Fulmer and the starting prospects we get in all these trades, and we'll be fine. I'm more than fine to wait until 2019 or 2020 to be legitimate contenders. I can endure a few seasons of losing and development for the potential reward. It's a hell of a lot better than constant "going for it" seasons that end up with a team that can't even reach .500.

 

You sorta forgot to factor in, JR is 80 yrs old..

 

[bmags]

Kansas City being bad for 20 years has nothing to do with anything. No, selling star players for young players isn't a cure-all. But with the current and future set-up of the sox it makes more sense than doing nothing.

 

Yes, things performed badly don't work out. Thanks.

[captain54]

And many who have said this season is over are complaining Jacob Turner is starting tonight. That's what you get in a rebuild. Guys like Jacob Turner starting, for years.

 

Don't you think. by taking advantage of a sellers market and leveraging viable assets, not to mention freeing up payroll, you would expect to not only get some decent return for a near ready SP, $$$ to develop prospects and also explore the int'l market, that the percentage is low to have a Jacob Turner - type as a mainstay in the rotation?

 

[Dick Allen]

Kansas City being bad for 20 years has nothing to do with anything. No, selling star players for young players isn't a cure-all. But with the current and future set-up of the sox it makes more sense than doing nothing.

 

Yes, things performed badly don't work out. Thanks.

Things at the time that seem like great ideas don't work either.

 

Matt Davidson, some couldn't believe the Sox fortune being able to get him. According to one very negative poster at the time of the trade, Davidson was the best 3B prospect available. The conversation was when does the Super 2 kick in. I posted BPs top 20 prospect list from 6 years ago on here a couple of months ago. If you had all of them, you would need a lot more help to be a playoff contender,just once in a while. Trading Sale with several years left on his contract better get you back actual future stars, not just guys that look like they may be them, or your rebuild makes no sense. And that is hard to do.

[FT35]

I didn't read this whole message, but you sort of lost me at trading Eaton and Abreu. That makes literally no sense. Eaton is the kind of guy we need more of, and we have him locked up long term and cheap. Same could have been said about Jose coming into this year, but the man is still a huge bargain and you don't trade him when his value is lowest.

 

 

Totally hear you. But the argument being made here is that in order to truly rebuild, a. you need to clean house and b. you need to trade what has value. I believe Eaton and Abreu are a big part of the core obviously. But no one is a larger part of the core than Chris Sale given his performance and contract--and that's the very reason why people are saying he should be traded. You trade Sale and you get multiple MLB-ready players and a new farm system. That's what the pro-rebuilders are calling for now. Trading Duke, Cabrera, Lawrie, Jennings...those types of players...will not provide a return great enough to turn the franchise around. To give the team a different landscape, you need to bring out the land movers and turn your biggest assets into the biggest returns. That's what a rebuild is--wiping the slate clean. Eaton and Abreu, Sale and Q...those are the guys that are a part of "the core"...but no matter how good those players are, it's a core that has never achieved results on the field together.

[Quin]

Things at the time that seem like great ideas don't work either.

 

Matt Davidson, some couldn't believe the Sox fortune being able to get him. According to one very negative poster at the time of the trade, Davidson was the best 3B prospect available. The conversation was when does the Super 2 kick in. I posted BPs top 20 prospect list from 6 years ago on here a couple of months ago. If you had all of them, you would need a lot more help to be a playoff contender,just once in a while. Trading Sale with several years left on his contract better get you back actual future stars, not just guys that look like they may be them, or your rebuild makes no sense. And that is hard to do.

 

This is my point when I say no guarantees. It could very well be the correct move, but we need to learn to not count our chickens before they hatch in trades.

[Dick Allen]

This is my point when I say no guarantees. It could very well be the correct move, but we need to learn to not count our chickens before they hatch in trades.

Exactly. Especially with prospects. There are a lot of former top 10 in the game guys who couldn't hack it. That's why if I was trading Sale, there is no way I don't get a starting major leaguer back as part of the package. And not many playoff teams would do that midseason.

 

The Sox have to get more for these guys that teams got for their aces. They are signed cheaply for multiple years, not just one or two.

 

 

[bmags]

Things at the time that seem like great ideas don't work either.

 

Matt Davidson, some couldn't believe the Sox fortune being able to get him. According to one very negative poster at the time of the trade, Davidson was the best 3B prospect available. The conversation was when does the Super 2 kick in. I posted BPs top 20 prospect list from 6 years ago on here a couple of months ago. If you had all of them, you would need a lot more help to be a playoff contender,just once in a while. Trading Sale with several years left on his contract better get you back actual future stars, not just guys that look like they may be them, or your rebuild makes no sense. And that is hard to do.

 

Yes, you have brought up the same examples over and over. But, just like we can reasonably look at a current major leaguer and have a better idea of their production than a minor leaguer, I can look at the current white sox roster and performance, and tell that without substantial money used to overpay players on the free agent market in a weak fa class, there is no way the sox will get to playoffs in next two years, which happens to be when their cost controlled pitching ends.

 

Things have risks. If the goal of the white sox is to put together a profitable and winning franchise, they are failing currently. The question isn't Aren't prospects so much better than major leaguers? The question is how to the white sox get as many dynamic players as possible. They have hit a wall where they cannot find a 5 WAR guy with their farm or payroll. So you take a chance on getting multiple talented young players to come up with your other talented young players and get as many lottery tickets as possible.

 

Matt Davidson was worth the risk because he had the potential to be a cost controlled 3b for years with power. Relying on Matt Davidson panning out because of your horrible (for over a decade) farm system that you routinely raid just to add average players that are not getting you for a playoff is not.

 

The point is not to get prospects. The point is to get more great players on their roster. They cannot do that without taking the risk of getting them while their young and unproven.

[Lip Man 1]

The point is not to get prospects. The point is to get more great players on their roster. They cannot do that without taking the risk of getting them while their young and unproven.

 

Or to put it another way the object is to get as much TALENT as humanly possible by ANY and all available means...signing free agents, making trades, signing international free agents, the rule 5 draft, the June draft. Doesn't matter how you do it, you've got to get talent. The Sox have some but nowhere near enough so you do what you have to do.

 

I go back to Roland Hemond and Chuck Tanner when they took over as they both told me that was the objective to get as much talent as possible if that meant trading their better players (Aparicio, Berry) so be it. Like Chuck told me, "Mike Andrews wasn't as good of a player as Aparicio (even though he was ending his career) but together Andrews and Luis Alvarado made the team better, they gave the team better depth." That's why those guys traded or acquired 18 players in a 24 hour period at the winter meetings before the '71 season.

 

History shows the Sox went from 56 wins in 1970 to 79 in 1971. That was also partly because they had an actual manager who knew what he was doing. Let's not forget that aspect.

 

Mark

 

 

[Dunt]

Ok, such as former sure-fire thing Joc Pederson who has crashed and burned since his AS appearance.

 

Or Gordon Beckham, someone that Derek Jeter and Steve Stone would be a multiple MVP award winner and was picked for the 2010s all-decade team, with elite defense and bat speed.

 

I'm not saying don't make the deals, but don't expect them to be surefire successes either.

 

Joc Pederson has put up 4.3 fWAR, 39 HR, and a wRC+ of 113 in a season and a half. That's pretty damn good.

[Quin]

Joc Pederson has put up 4.3 fWAR, 39 HR, and a wRC+ of 113 in a season and a half. That's pretty damn good.

 

After an ugly second half last year and this year he's been equal to Frazier, so this board would hate him. He also has more concerns now than he did going into last year.

 

I'd still trade for him as part of a package.

[Dunt]

After an ugly second half last year and this year he's been equal to Frazier, so this board would hate him. He also has more concerns now than he did going into last year.

 

I'd still trade for him as part of a package.

 

I definitely would like for him to be manning CF for the Sox. That type of production of out CF is a nice plus.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Things at the time that seem like great ideas don't work either.

 

Matt Davidson, some couldn't believe the Sox fortune being able to get him. According to one very negative poster at the time of the trade, Davidson was the best 3B prospect available. The conversation was when does the Super 2 kick in. I posted BPs top 20 prospect list from 6 years ago on here a couple of months ago. If you had all of them, you would need a lot more help to be a playoff contender,just once in a while. Trading Sale with several years left on his contract better get you back actual future stars, not just guys that look like they may be them, or your rebuild makes no sense. And that is hard to do.

The value you're getting for Sale or even Quintana is a lot better than the return for Addison Reed. Yes we all know some of these guys won't work out. My fear is they f*** around for another 3 seasons and it's no better. That's another three years wasted.

[ptatc]

IF the sox are a player away, they may be more likely to spend some of their addiitional prospects for their top pitcher, vs. signing a lester at top price ala cubs. They have luxury to do that with their attendance/payroll. Sox may sell on a Soler instead.

 

Can we stop acting like cubs are only good because of Arrieta? That team is loaded. 2 years ago look how many on here were laughing at Baez and how much he can't hit. Now we'd trade Sale for him. They have young talented players all over the system.

Arrieta isn't the only reason they are good but he is the reason they are post season and world series contenders. That is what an Ace pitcher gives a team.

[Chicago White Sox]

We have a very unique opportunity here. The demand for starting pitching is insane, we have two young/cheap/controllable left-handed starters available, and there are multiple contenders in need of pitching with elite farm systems. For a franchise mired in mediocrity, this is an opportunity of a lifetime. The packages we could receive would be unprecedented and inject an incredible amount of talent into our organization. I would fully expect seven top 100 prospects (several of them elite) & another couple B types. And that's just for Sale & Quintana. Trading guys like Robertson, Duke, Frazier, Melky, & Lawrie would only increase the overall haul. By the end of next offseason, we could easily have the best farm system in baseball, quality major league assets in Eaton, Abreu, Anderson, Rodon, Fulmer, & Jones, huge draft & international pools for 2017, and a ton of financial flexibility.

 

That's option A and is right there for the taking. Option B is to half-ass it three more years, lose Sale for a comp pick (if they still exist), and remain in mediocrity for the foreseeable future. I can't believe we're even having this debate. I realize that rebuilding is painful, but there is no doubt in my mind it's the quickest path for us becoming a legit playoff contender again.

[Harry Chappas]

We have a very unique opportunity here. The demand for starting pitching is insane, we have two young/cheap/controllable left-handed starters available, and there are multiple contenders in need of pitching with elite farm systems. For a franchise mired in mediocrity, this is an opportunity of a lifetime. The packages we could receive would be unprecedented and inject an incredible amount of talent into our organization. I would fully expect seven top 100 prospects (several of them elite) & another couple B types. And that's just for Sale & Quintana. Trading guys like Robertson, Duke, Frazier, Melky, & Lawrie would only increase the overall haul. By the end of next offseason, we could easily have the best farm system in baseball, quality major league assets in Eaton, Abreu, Anderson, Rodon, Fulmer, & Jones, huge draft & international pools for 2017, and a ton of financial flexibility.

 

That's option A and is right there for the taking. Option B is to half-ass it three more years, lose Sale for a comp pick (if they still exist), and remain in mediocrity for the foreseeable future. I can't believe we're even having this debate. I realize that rebuilding is painful, but there is no doubt in my mind it's the quickest path for us becoming a legit playoff contender again.

 

I do not trust this organization and their professional scouting ability to make the right choices in trading these players.

[Chicago White Sox]

I do not trust this organization and their professional scouting ability to make the right choices in trading these players.

Why? Because they missed on Avi Garcia & Matt Davidson? You always have to accept the fact that some of your prospects are going bust, which is why you need a lot of them. This front office's downfall was relying on 100% of them to work out in recent years. We had no depth when we started going for it again and it ended up costing us in the end. I'm not sure how much I blame Hahn & KW for that, because it's very possible Reinsdorf told them to go for it against their wishes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving the front office a free pass here because they've clearly made some mistakes. Having said that, I'm not passing on the opportunity of a lifetime because there's a non-zero chance they fail, especially when the alternative is more half-assing it.

[bmags]

Why? Because they missed on Avi Garcia & Matt Davidson? You always have to accept the fact that some of your prospects are going bust, which is why you need a lot of them. This front office's downfall was relying on 100% of them to work out in recent years. We had no depth when we started going for it again and it ended up costing us in the end. I'm not sure how much I blame Hahn & KW for that, because it's very possible Reinsdorf told them to go for it against their wishes. Don't get me wrong, I'm not giving the front office a free pass here because they've clearly made some mistakes. Having said that, I'm not passing on the opportunity of a lifetime because there's a non-zero chance they fail, especially when the alternative is more half-assing it.

 

I do share his concern. Our pro scouting has really fallen off a cliff.

[DirtySox]

Jon Heyman‏ @JonHeyman

The #WhiteSox are at least listening on offers for Sale and Quintana, with the #RedSox among many interested parties

[NCsoxfan]

Jon Heyman‏ @JonHeyman

The #WhiteSox are at least listening on offers for Sale and Quintana, with the #RedSox among many interested parties

 

Whether they're dealt or not, this is a huge change in posture. DYING to know what the offers are.

[Panerista]

Jon Heyman‏ @JonHeyman

The #WhiteSox are at least listening on offers for Sale and Quintana, with the #RedSox among many interested parties

That's really good news at least.

[Whisox05]

Jon Heyman‏ @JonHeyman

The #WhiteSox are at least listening on offers for Sale and Quintana, with the #RedSox among many interested parties

 

 

http://www.todaysknuckleball.com/knuckleba...-among-suitors/

[Buehrlesque]

I do not trust this organization and their professional scouting ability to make the right choices in trading these players.

 

Eh, I think this narrative is starting to get a little out of hand/misguided. Things haven't worked out, and I do doubt the org's ability to make a decision on a specific direction, but the specific trades are usually pretty good. After a dismal 2013, they assembled four potential core pieces: Garcia, Abreu, Eaton and Davidson, all on good deals. Then they got lost after 2014 with the half assed "going for it." Still, IMO the Samardziija, Lawrie, Frazier and Shields trades have all been good transactions on their own, even if I didn't agree with the intent at the time.

 

I'm not saying this front office has earned our complete trust — they haven't, their minor league pipeline has been disappointing and their veteran trade/free agent targets have underperformed. But I think most of the mistakes have come from philosophy/not picking a firm direction. It may seem like a small difference, but basically I'm saying, if they do indeed decide to sell, I do have confidence they could make a good deal.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Buehrlesque