Not Giving up Yet but ....

[kitekrazy]

That was me based on JR's comments himself, but by 'management' he meant field managers or head coaches. He's never said anything about front office executives one way or the other.

 

Mark

 

Hahn was one of the highest paid Ass't. GMs. It's obvious JR didn't want to lose him.

 

[jenksycat]

Best idea. I try to watch other baseball teams where there is little emotional interest and that means NL baseball. For the Cub haters, unfortunately the Cubs are a good team to watch. I wish the Dbacks didn't suck. I have a neighbor who has season tickets and sometimes gives them away.

 

I've never been the stereotype "CUBS SUCK" kinda Sox fan, but man do I envy their position. A legit core on both sides, money to spend, competent manager. I don't see how they're not contenders for at least the next 4-5 years

[jenksycat]

Hahn was one of the highest paid Ass't. GMs. It's obvious JR didn't want to lose him.

 

I wish they could meet in the middle, keep Hahn and fire everyone else. Lets JR keep some of his blind loyalty but lets them rebuild from the ground up. Too much of KW's fingerprints everywhere still.

[kitekrazy]

I loathe comparing teams across sports, but White Sox ownership needs to do essentially what the Bears did. Fire the Vice President down, hire an expert baseball mind to help comb the league for a touted assistant GM in a winning organization.

 

The most valuable people in the NFL are your scouts. The NFL is such a different animal with the salary cap. The window for winning is short.

I'd love to know how the Cardinals do things. They rarely have a losing season and even if their season starts out bad they somehow mange to be back in the pack.

 

[SCCWS]

The most valuable people in the NFL are your scouts. The NFL is such a different animal with the salary cap. The window for winning is short.

I'd love to know how the Cardinals do things. They rarely have a losing season and even if their season starts out bad they somehow mange to be back in the pack.

 

It insn't just scouts. The Patriots never have a losing season. They have Brady and 50 interchangeable pieces.

 

[soxforlife05]

I think people are too pessimistic here. Since 2005 the World Series has been won four times with teams with dominant starting pitching (Sox and the Giants three times). The Mets gave a black eye to the Cubs because dominant starting pitching can beat dominant hitting. The White Sox had no choice to follow the path they are one because the stumbled upon Quintana, Sale became one of the best pitchers of all time, and they got lucky drafting Rodon. Now they look like they may have gotten lucky getting Fulmer as well. I'm not saying it WILL happen...but lets say in 2017 Rodon improves to Quintana level and Fulmer starts and is Rodon 2015...and James Shields or Gonzalez pitches the way they have in July. You will all agree the defense is WAY better this year than it was last year. You have Austin Jackson and the two catchers done after this year which frees up $11 million in salary (along with adam Laroches $12 million already in your pocket). You resign Frazier (I'm fine with a good fielding 3b who hits 40 home runs but only hits .220) and then sign Lucroy (still need a catcher as Collins is probably a few years away). Why is that not one of the best teams in baseball...or at least a team that can get into the playoffs and then throw four aces into every round of the playoffs? The idea of trading for prospects is exciting as potential is so tantalizing but 2015 #2 BA prospect was Byron Buxton who has a .580 OPS after his first 300 MLB at bats. We need to be patient...building a championship is a long process and I think we have come a long way in three years.

 

This team has literally nothing in the prospect pipeline to expect any additional contributors in the next 2-3 years besides Collins.

 

Why would Lucroy want to play here? 2 of the 3 big outfielders this past offseason didn't even seriously entertain the idea of playing for the White Sox.

 

People were banking on Rodon being good this year and he's fallen short of expectations.

 

Shields salary was spent with the LaRoche money. Resigning Frazier alone would cost around $20 mill. Then you have to spend at least another $5-10 mill to fill the hole in CF, $10+ mill to fill the hole at DH, and Lucroy would cost $20-25 mill. That's $40-50+ million this team doesn't have the money to spend.

 

It sounds like you are the one being far too optimistic because the only way this team can contend is with young, cheap and good prospects coming up to fill the holes at minimal cost supplemented with one big signing like a Lucroy or Frazier. I don't know how you figure all of a sudden this team is going to start spending like the Red Sox or Yankees used to.

Edited July 22, 2016 by soxforlife05

[elrockinMT]

I think Rick Hahn has done a good job actually. Some have said our weakness us ar CF and DH. I might add catcher too. I think those positions could be improved through lesser trades and free agent signings. Lesser trades meaning none of our current starters. We have a real decent nucleus

[soxforlife05]

That's the spirit. We've also added Anderson who looks like our shortstop for the next ten years. And if you like prospects...how about Adam Engel who was the AFL player of the year, and then after a slow start in Birmingham has been amazing. He's a good fielder and an on base machine with plus speed for Center field...they just have to wait for 2017. Even Collins might be ready by then...if not at catcher he would be automatically better than Avi at DH. This is not a broken machine...this is a half fixed machine...and we fixed the hardest part...great starting pitching. Baseball is a game that requires massive patience and yet because of its daily games its hard not to give up hope after a bad loss.

 

No one is giving up hope after one bad loss. 23-39 after the first 33 games which makes this one of the worst teams in baseball over the last 62 games. Anderson looks good but I would argue Beckham will have a better first year and we all know how that turned out. Far from guaranteed to be a star but he has the potential - just zero plate discipline.

 

Pretty doubtful that Engel would be any better than someone like Shuck. We don't have time to give Engel 2-3 years to develop. The time to develop players was 3-4 years ago. This team's window is closing fast.

 

Ok, Collins will be automatically better than Avi if he can hit MLB pitching. The DH hole could've easily been patched by bringing in Loney or Morse earlier this season at minimal cost though. Why wasn't that move made? Instead Morneau is added and by the time he can contribute the team is out of it. Avi Garcia has 9 lives in this organization.

Edited July 22, 2016 by soxforlife05

[SCCWS]

I think Rick Hahn has done a good job actually. Some have said our weakness us ar CF and DH. I might add catcher too. I think those positions could be improved through lesser trades and free agent signings. Lesser trades meaning none of our current starters. We have a real decent nucleus

 

I think getting a solid CF and C are not going to be obtained from lesser trades, Like SS, those are premium positions and will require giving up a quality player for each( creating more holes) or a Q-Rodon or Fulmer for 2 highly rated prospects you hope develop.

 

[SI1020]

I've said it before, I'll say it again: nothing improves as long as KW is president. I firmly believe KW gambled--and won--in 2005 (and we thank him for that) but then became convinced he's on a par with Theo Epstein.

 

11 years and one losing playoff appearance later, here we are. More like Juan Epstein.

 

But yes, KW is there because of JR so things may never change as long as JR is owner. Someone here once said that JR's M.O. is that he won't pay big bucks for management or unproven talent. While the latter might make sense, how's the former workin' out for ya, Jer?

 

I mean FFS after Ozzie the big splash was "Hey, Robin: here, put on this hat, you're a manager now!" I'm sure Robin didn't cost much.

 

We need to do what--gasp--the Cubs did and the Blackhawks did. Start from the top down.

 

That said, might as well load up on prospects now with a fire sale--until you think: do we trust these guys to even do that right?

No, I absolutely do not. JR has to just about completely clean house for me to think about believing again. That or sell the team.

 

[SI1020]

No one is giving up hope after one bad loss. 23-39 after the first 33 games which makes this one of the worst teams in baseball over the last 62 games. Anderson looks good but I would argue Beckham will have a better first year and we all know how that turned out. Far from guaranteed to be a star but he has the potential - just zero plate discipline.

 

Pretty doubtful that Engel would be any better than someone like Shuck. We don't have time to give Engel 2-3 years to develop. The time to develop players was 3-4 years ago. This team's window is closing fast.

 

Ok, Collins will be automatically better than Avi if he can hit MLB pitching. The DH hole could've easily been patched by bringing in Loney or Morse earlier this season at minimal cost though. Why wasn't that move made? Instead Morneau is added and by the time he can contribute the team is out of it. Avi Garcia has 9 lives in this organization.

Beckham never corrected that awful hitch in his swing and pitchers learned to exploit that. Anderson swings away, hardly ever takes a walk. Sooner, rather than later pitchers are going to realize you don't have to throw strikes when he is at bat. I really like Anderson and think he could be a good one for a long time but he needs some help and coaching on his hitting approach. Something the Sox don't seem particularly good at.

 

[chitownsportsfan]

This has been the most apathetic feeling during a season I personally have gone through. I'm not even checking the box scores much anymore to see how TA and the other youngsters are doing. The reality of the last 60 odd games, where the Sox have basically been the worst team in the AL after the hot start has completely sapped any excitement or hope I have around this team.

 

The only move that would immediately bring me back some would be trading for younger assets and firing RV along with it. That's about it. Other then that a 10 game winning streak but good luck with that they can't even win 6 out of 10 anymore.

[Bananarchy]

When your team has been bad for essentially 8 years, there's not a lot of room for positivity, I'm sorry I'm not sorry. A number of us have said this for a while: This modus operandi isn't going to work. If we can't develop our own players, we're sunk.

 

It's no longer pessimism, it's just being realistic.

[michelangelosmonkey]

Because you can't keep trotting out one of worst offenses in baseball and expect to win games even if you have 5 Chris Sales.

 

2017 Offense:

1B - Abreu looks to be completely average at this point and we have no idea if he will even come close to where he was ever again.

2B - Average at best

SS - Unknown at this point & Sox have non-existant track record of developing any offensive player

3B - Hits homers and nothing else

C - Overpay for Lucroy I guess?

LF - Last year of Melky, average to maybe solid.

CF - Likely a rookie or another dumpster dive

RF - Solid to star level

DH - Dumpster dive or a rookie

 

Our pitching will be great again, but that lineup screams

Honestly you are welcome to be as pessimistic as you want. But you are wrong about baseball...go look at the 2012 or 2014 Giants WS champs...their second best hitters were Melky and old sox farmhand Michael Morse. Who was the second best hitter on the 2005 Sox WS team? Jermaine Dye. The secret to all those teams is that they had no terrible hitters and great starting pitchers. We are a C and CF away from being that...and Collins and Engel are our two best looking prospects. Again...it may not work. But its not implausible. This path has worked multiple times in the last dozen years. Sure its nice to have a great offense and great pitching but its not necessary.

[GreenSox]

Honestly you are welcome to be as pessimistic as you want. But you are wrong about baseball...go look at the 2012 or 2014 Giants WS champs...their second best hitters were Melky and old sox farmhand Michael Morse. Who was the second best hitter on the 2005 Sox WS team? Jermaine Dye. The secret to all those teams is that they had no terrible hitters and great starting pitchers. We are a C and CF away from being that...and Collins and Engel are our two best looking prospects. Again...it may not work. But its not implausible. This path has worked multiple times in the last dozen years. Sure its nice to have a great offense and great pitching but its not necessary.

Melky had a .900 OPS in 2012 and Posey was better, but beyond that, you're right except that they had several hitters below .700 OPS. And if you look at their starters, they had 2 great ones and 3 mediocre starters; 2 great reliever and a bunch of average guys. Really hard to see that team as a WS champ looking at stats.

 

In 2014, they had no terrible hitters, but only 1 great starter (but he was really, really great).

 

The Royals didn't have any elite starters last year. But they had an elite pen.

 

I tend to agree - minimize weaknesses. Sox were reasonably close to doing that except at CF and C. But they had no one >.900 OPS and only one guy >.800 OPS. Frazier's done a little better yesterday, but he's not the difference maker many people (not I ) thought he was. But at this point, enough is enough. Front office didn't get it done.

Edited July 23, 2016 by GreenSox

[harkness99]

I think Rick Hahn has done a good job actually. Some have said our weakness us ar CF and DH. I might add catcher too. I think those positions could be improved through lesser trades and free agent signings. Lesser trades meaning none of our current starters. We have a real decent nucleus

 

If Hahn has done a good job... then why have we been so bad the past 3-4 years?

 

 

Ventura? Avi Garcia? Reinsdorf?

 

Curious.. because we are failing across the board.

[greg775]

I've been busy. What the hell is our record after the all star break? Doesn't it reek? Poor Mourneau. Our record reeks with him even though he's doing OK.

 

More losses to the Central as expected. It was time to sell weeks ago! Hahn should be ashamed for waiting waiting waiting. This isn't the year we're going to turn it around vs. the Central.

Edited July 23, 2016 by greg775

[SCCWS]

Honestly you are welcome to be as pessimistic as you want. But you are wrong about baseball...go look at the 2012 or 2014 Giants WS champs...their second best hitters were Melky and old sox farmhand Michael Morse. Who was the second best hitter on the 2005 Sox WS team? Jermaine Dye. The secret to all those teams is that they had no terrible hitters and great starting pitchers. We are a C and CF away from being that...and Collins and Engel are our two best looking prospects. Again...it may not work. But its not implausible. This path has worked multiple times in the last dozen years. Sure its nice to have a great offense and great pitching but its not necessary.

 

You have to have balance. You must be a young fan. Read your White Sox history on the Go Go White Sox. They usually had great pitching, solid defense and speed. Unfortunately weak hitting. Over their 10-15 year stretch the Go Go White Sox only Went Went to one World Series. If you were a Strat-o-matic fan in those days you pulled your hair out with that damn offense.

Edited July 23, 2016 by SCCWS

[michelangelosmonkey]

You have to have balance. You must be a young fan. Read your White Sox history on the Go Go White Sox. They usually had great pitching, solid defense and speed. Unfortunately weak hitting. Over their 10-15 year stretch the Go Go White Sox only Went Went to one World Series. If you were a Strat-o-matic fan in those days you pulled your hair out with that damn offense.

I'm not a young fan...but this is a totally silly comment by you. Baseball in 1960 was a different game. Exactly one team from each division went to the playoffs. From 1957 to 1967 those speed/defense/pitching Sox teams won an average of 90 games a year and went to ONE playoffs. From 63-65 they won 94, 98 and 95 games and never went to the playoffs. IF in that ten season stretch the playoffs were like today...the Sox would have gone to and won a few world series because they had GREAT pitching, defense and speed. In a seven game series they would have beaten the Yankees a few times. But in that day you had to have a fully balanced team. You don't have to do that today. When the Diamondbacks won the WS they had Randy Johnson and Curt Shilling and a juiced up Luis Gonzalez and not much else. We learn every year that it is no longer who had the best team over 162 games as it was before the 1970's...it is who is hot with great starting pitching in the playoffs.

 

[napa_soxfan]

Believe we are 1-7 since the break.

[SI1020]

I'm not a young fan...but this is a totally silly comment by you. Baseball in 1960 was a different game. Exactly one team from each division went to the playoffs. From 1957 to 1967 those speed/defense/pitching Sox teams won an average of 90 games a year and went to ONE playoffs. From 63-65 they won 94, 98 and 95 games and never went to the playoffs. IF in that ten season stretch the playoffs were like today...the Sox would have gone to and won a few world series because they had GREAT pitching, defense and speed. In a seven game series they would have beaten the Yankees a few times. But in that day you had to have a fully balanced team. You don't have to do that today. When the Diamondbacks won the WS they had Randy Johnson and Curt Shilling and a juiced up Luis Gonzalez and not much else. We learn every year that it is no longer who had the best team over 162 games as it was before the 1970's...it is who is hot with great starting pitching in the playoffs.

No, I remember that go go era very well. Those 63-65 teams were good and fun to watch but they lacked a Frank Thomas caliber bat. However even if there were extended playoffs back then I don't know that the outcome would have been that much different. The 1949-64 Yanks were a well balanced juggernaut. In fact between 1951-64 the Sox went 118-174 against the Yanks, a .404 winning pct. The 1964 team had one of the best one year pitching staffs of all time but the team still lost to NY the first 12 times they played them. They won the last 6 but it was too little too late. If they go just 7-11 it's the Sox vs Cardinals in the WS. The Sox just could not beat the Yanks when it counted back then, traumatizing my childhood greatly.

 

[SCCWS]

I'm not a young fan...but this is a totally silly comment by you. Baseball in 1960 was a different game. Exactly one team from each division went to the playoffs. From 1957 to 1967 those speed/defense/pitching Sox teams won an average of 90 games a year and went to ONE playoffs. From 63-65 they won 94, 98 and 95 games and never went to the playoffs. IF in that ten season stretch the playoffs were like today...the Sox would have gone to and won a few world series because they had GREAT pitching, defense and speed. In a seven game series they would have beaten the Yankees a few times. But in that day you had to have a fully balanced team. You don't have to do that today. When the Diamondbacks won the WS they had Randy Johnson and Curt Shilling and a juiced up Luis Gonzalez and not much else. We learn every year that it is no longer who had the best team over 162 games as it was before the 1970's...it is who is hot with great starting pitching in the playoffs.

 

 

Agree totally different era. So go back 5 years and the World Series winners--KC,SF,Boston, SF and StL all had one thing in common....................none had the best Staff ERA in the majors. Boston has won 2 World Series in this era and neither year finished in even the Top 10. You need good pitching and good hitting and usually great hitting or pitching w/o being good in the other area does not work. I think san Fran did it one year w pitching and defense and average offense but it is rare.

[greg775]

The Sox are so irrelevant right now. Even some people on this board recognized and realized this team is not a contender long ago. And just now Hahn says something about being mired in mediocrity and may change/sell.

WTF. Show some leadership and figure it out after the 23-10 start turned to mush. The team folded like a wet blanket after the disaster game. The team had played enough games vs the Central for anybody with half a baseball brain to realize the team is toast again for this season.

I've been clamoring he start the trade parade for at least a month. He's a millionaire and a baseball genius. He should know how to assess teams/talent better. Now, f***, he's going to start selling now?? After proclaiming that the team is mired in mediocrity? Once again, GMs have a chance to start thinking about ways to fleece the Sox. They can start thinking about name prospects they have that they've started to lose faith in to dump on the Sox. Simply ridiculous.

These trades he makes may ultimately turn the Sox to even a worse team for some time to come if the fleece scenario happens. I'm very disappointed.

 

Why not be the leader for once and he could have started selling parts when it was damn obvious this team reeks. And it's pretty obvious. I don't know how in the hell they have flirted close to .500. That's a miracle in itself.

 

 

ALL THAT SAID, Mr. Hahn, don't trade Sale or Q or Abreu or Eaton or Anderson. Get some better coaches to work with Abreu for gawd sakes and trade virtually everybody else u can. No value in those others? I dunno. Do you job make it happen. Or wait til the offseason now that you've blown it again with inaction and your stupid interview about mediocrity.

Edited July 23, 2016 by greg775

[elrockinMT]

Trading our best in a complete rebuild is just going from one extreme to the other. I think there are some great moves that can be made and not tear up the team so we don't compete for several years

[Chicago White Sox]

Trading our best in a complete rebuild is just going from one extreme to the other. I think there are some great moves that can be made and not tear up the team so we don't compete for several years

Like what? Please elaborate.