White Sox Listening on Sale

[Jake]

We're far from backed into a corner where we need to trade Q/Sale

[Chicago White Sox]

We're far from backed into a corner where we need to trade Q/Sale

If you honestly believe this, then please explain. Tell us how you'd turn this team into a winner before Sale leaves. I haven't seen one rational argument for how re-tooling makes sense, just a lot desperation to avoid rebuilding.

[hi8is]

We're far from backed into a corner where we need to trade Q/Sale

You can certainly keep them both and hope to rebuild with a rotation of Sale / Q / Shields / Rodon / Fulmer by 2019. Then again - it's not likely to work as every other asset you move isn't going to fill multiple holes and will create another one on the exit.

 

I.E. - Eaton, Abreu, Fraizer, Lawrie, Robertson, Melky

 

We've already got holes at DH, CF, and C.

 

You trade Melky, Fraizer, and Lawrie... Then you've got holes at 6 of 9 positions.

 

Eek.

 

 

[GreenSox]

What you do is keep Sale and Q and Abreu and Eaton and Anderson and absolutley trade everybody else and try again. It's almost too late already. We're waiting too long again this year and I don't like it.

You'll end up with the same thing. If you want to "Try again" you've got to trade at least one of Q or Eaton (and then any combination of Frazier, Duke, Robertson etc.) , hope to plug 3/4 holes and then give it a go. It would be different because it would be done with younger players, not with these veterans.

But you have to move Q or Eaton or Sale to get the surplus needed. The others grab B/B+ prospects.

 

The Padres got an elite prospect for a mediocre Pomerantz. There are deals out there.

Edited July 23, 2016 by GreenSox

[Jack Parkman]

I don't care. I agree with those who say that Bryant/Betts/Bogaerts/Correa is a starting point, and disagree with those who say that those players are more valuable than he is. You don't get a prime age ace who is on a 3/39 contract for less than that. He is, IMO the 2nd best LHP in baseball. and the only pitchers you could make an argument for being better than him for 2nd best in the game are Bumgarner and Fernandez. (Bumgarner and Fernandez pitch in the NL. Sale would have nearly Kershaw #s in the NL IMO. He'd annually flirt with, if not achieve 300 K. Arrieta was a flash in the pan IMO. He'll settle in as an ace level pitcher, but not a demigod like Kershaw)

 

So, you are essentially trading for the best (healthy) pitcher in the game, with a contract of 3/39. Think about that for a second. Whatever Kershaw is worth in a trade when healthy, think about that deal. That is what Sale is worth. Then you add in the contract. So you get the rest of his age 27 season and his 28, 29, 30 seasons(prime) while paying him no more than 13.5MM in ANY season. For a top 3 pitcher in the game at worst. So think about that again. THEN tell me he's not worth Bryant++ or Correa++, etc.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Elgin Slim

[Chicago White Sox]

I don't care. I agree with those who say that Bryant/Betts/Bogaerts/Correa is a starting point, and disagree with those who say that those players are more valuable than he is. You don't get a prime age ace who is on a 3/39 contract for less than that. He is, IMO the 2nd best LHP in baseball. and the only pitchers you could make an argument for being better than him for 2nd best in the game are Bumgarner and Fernandez. (Bumgarner and Fernandez pitch in the NL. Sale would have nearly Kershaw #s in the NL IMO. He'd annually flirt with, if not achieve 300 K Arrieta was a flash in the pan IMO. He'll settle in as an ace level pitcher, but not a demigod like Kershaw)

 

So, you are essentially trading for the best (healthy) pitcher in the game, with a contract of 3/39. Think about that for a second. Whatever Kershaw is worth in a trade when healthy, think about that deal. That is what Sale is worth. Then you add in the contract. So you get the rest of his age 27 season and his 28, 29, 30 seasons(prime) while paying him no more than 13.5MM in ANY season. For a top 3 pitcher in the game at worst. So think about that again. THEN tell me he's not worth Bryant++ or Correa++, etc.

Sorry dude, but Bryant >> Sale.

[Jack Parkman]

Sorry dude, but Bryant >> Sale.

Disagree, because of track record. How long did it take for the AL to figure out Abreu? Bryant still strikes out a bunch, just not as much as his first season. He'll get figured out. Let's see how Bryant adjusts. Despite the ASG HR, Sale has made Bryant his b**** in games that count. 0-6 with 6 k against him.

[ptatc]

Sorry dude, but Bryant >> Sale.

I disagree. If a teamwants to win in the post season, pitching is more important.

[dpd9189]

Disagree, because of track record. How long did it take for the AL to figure out Abreu? Bryant still strikes out a bunch, just not as much as his first season. He'll get figured out. Let's see how Bryant adjusts. Despite the ASG HR, Sale has made Bryant his b**** in games that count. 0-6 with 6 k against him.

 

That's basically comparing apples to oranges. While Sale will get the Sox a haul IF he gets traded, I think we have to somewhat temper our expectations on the return. For instance anyone who thinks Boston will trade their top 3 prospects and 2 All Star positional players is insane. It's not that the Sox will get underwhelmed in a Sale trade but I'd expect something very similar to what Cole Hamels netted.

[Jack Parkman]

That's basically comparing apples to oranges. While Sale will get the Sox a haul IF he gets traded, I think we have to somewhat temper our expectations on the return. For instance anyone who thinks Boston will trade their top 3 prospects and 2 All Star positional players is insane. It's not that the Sox will get underwhelmed in a Sale trade but I'd expect something very similar to what Cole Hamels netted.

I think Betts+ the top 3 is what they should ask for, and if they don't get it hold him. You want 3.5 seasons of Sale with his contract? Pay up. It would be painful for both teams. If the team's fanbase (that is acquiring Sale) doesn't think they got ripped off, then it wasn't a fair deal. Also, I think that the Hamels deal is completely different. He had 3.5 years at an AAV of 23 MM/yr on his contract when he got traded. I would expect the Hamels deal + one extra top 100 prospect for Quintana. Sale's value is off the charts. IMO due to the contract and age plus the fact that he is available, he may very well be the most valuable player in the game. Anyone else with potentially more value is untouchable

Edited July 23, 2016 by Elgin Slim

[dmbjeff]

I don't care. I agree with those who say that Bryant/Betts/Bogaerts/Correa is a starting point, and disagree with those who say that those players are more valuable than he is. You don't get a prime age ace who is on a 3/39 contract for less than that. He is, IMO the 2nd best LHP in baseball. and the only pitchers you could make an argument for being better than him for 2nd best in the game are Bumgarner and Fernandez. (Bumgarner and Fernandez pitch in the NL. Sale would have nearly Kershaw #s in the NL IMO. He'd annually flirt with, if not achieve 300 K. Arrieta was a flash in the pan IMO. He'll settle in as an ace level pitcher, but not a demigod like Kershaw)

 

So, you are essentially trading for the best (healthy) pitcher in the game, with a contract of 3/39. Think about that for a second. Whatever Kershaw is worth in a trade when healthy, think about that deal. That is what Sale is worth. Then you add in the contract. So you get the rest of his age 27 season and his 28, 29, 30 seasons(prime) while paying him no more than 13.5MM in ANY season. For a top 3 pitcher in the game at worst. So think about that again. THEN tell me he's not worth Bryant++ or Correa++, etc.

 

Man, none of those deals for Sale would ever happen. Carlos Correa isn't getting traded away for Sale, are you nuts??! Teams trade for people at the deadline to help them make the playoffs. They don't deal from their current core to add a similar valued player. It happens like 1% of the time. If they trade Sale, which I think they should, you go get the best prospect package you can find and build for 2018 and beyond. This current core is never going to put it all together. They need real contributions from young good players to help supplement higher priced talent. The Sox won't spend big money. They totally had the chance this offseason and blew it. Now next offseason, Free Agency is a joke, so we just go through another year of the same and Sale has even less value going forward, between age, contract and possible future injury.

[Jack Parkman]

I will also add, that the Sox need this type of package from a Sale deal: 1 Pre-Arb major leaguer with a track record of success in the Majors, A team's top 3 prospects, and 2 lotto tickets in the lower minors.

[dpd9189]

I think Betts+ the top 3 is what they should ask for, and if they don't get it hold him. You want 3.5 seasons of Sale with his contract? Pay up. It would be painful for both teams. If the team's fanbase (that is acquiring Sale) doesn't think they got ripped off, then it wasn't a fair deal. Also, I think that the Hamels deal is completely different. I would expect the Hamels deal + one extra top 100 prospect for Quintana. Sale's value is off the charts. IMO due to the contract and age plus the fact that he is available, he may very well be the most valuable player in the game. Anyone else with potentially more value is untouchable

 

It depends what the FO really wants to do and right now we don't know. If they want to do a true rebuild, then you trade Sale for the best package you can get. If not then don't trade him. His value is never going to be higher than it is right now so if they want to rebuild then it makes sense to deal him soon, every year that goes by his value goes down. I think many people are under the assumption just because the Sox trade Sale, they still might be able to compete next year or in 2018 when that is not at all the plan if Sale gets traded. If he goes, then it's a real ass rebuild.

 

Personally I would go the rebuild route but the I don't think JR has the balls to do that. I also think the FO will convince themselves again this offseason that the team is not that bad and can compete. They'll get a new manager and maybe sign a guy like Dexter Fowler to a big deal hoping it will yield better results. Until I actually see it happen, the Sox will always be the "let's try to win 80 and hope to win 90 games" type organization.

[Quin]

Everyone knows that if you trade Sale, you need an almost guaranteed perennial All-Star in return, right?

 

Like, Sale isn't a "well we're not winning so f*** it we'll take what we can get" trade.

[Jack Parkman]

Man, none of those deals for Sale would ever happen. Carlos Correa isn't getting traded away for Sale, are you nuts??! Teams trade for people at the deadline to help them make the playoffs. They don't deal from their current core to add a similar valued player. It happens like 1% of the time. If they trade Sale, which I think they should, you go get the best prospect package you can find and build for 2018 and beyond. This current core is never going to put it all together. They need real contributions from young good players to help supplement higher priced talent. The Sox won't spend big money. They totally had the chance this offseason and blew it. Now next offseason, Free Agency is a joke, so we just go through another year of the same and Sale has even less value going forward, between age, contract and possible future injury.

No I'm not nuts. That is the type of player you need to deal Sale NOW, with 3.5 years on a $45 MM contract(roughly) Otherwise you wait until the offseason, when you can get that guy because they can replace him. It HAS to be Herschel Walker deal reincarnate, or you take the gamble that you can move him next year at the deadline or this offseason.

[hi8is]

God, what I would give for a tap on Hahn's phone right now!

[soxforlife05]

In a deal for Sale with the Red Sox we need to at least be getting Betts or JBJ, and their top 3-4 prospects and a b prospect or two

Edited July 23, 2016 by soxforlife05

[soxforlife05]

You can certainly keep them both and hope to rebuild with a rotation of Sale / Q / Shields / Rodon / Fulmer by 2019. Then again - it's not likely to work as every other asset you move isn't going to fill multiple holes and will create another one on the exit.

 

I.E. - Eaton, Abreu, Fraizer, Lawrie, Robertson, Melky

 

We've already got holes at DH, CF, and C.

 

You trade Melky, Fraizer, and Lawrie... Then you've got holes at 6 of 9 positions.

 

Eek.

 

The failure in player development will be what necessitates a premature selloff of the core pieces like Sale and Q. The organization was not able to produce enough position player talent to fill 2 holes on the major league roster (CF/RF (depending on where you play Eaton) and C). A league average or better DH could be had in free agency if the organization was willing to pay up.

 

Avi was supposed to be our 30/30 CF.

Edited July 23, 2016 by soxforlife05

[Bigsoxhurt35]

Everyone knows that if you trade Sale, you need an almost guaranteed perennial All-Star in return, right?

 

Like, Sale isn't a "well we're not winning so f*** it we'll take what we can get" trade.

That's why I said Bryant and a couple people freaked out like I'm an idiot. Sale has a few more years of control. It's not like he's a FA after the year.

[soxforlife05]

Gallo = Mike Olt imo

 

Hope he isn't a big part of any deal for our pitchers.

[GreenSox]

In a deal for Sale with the Red Sox we need to at least be getting Betts or JBJ, and their top 3-4 prospects and a b prospect or two

The Redsox aren't trading those 2 in July. If the Sox want one, wait until the offseason to fashion a trade.

What they should do is ask for their top 5 prospects, and then bargain down from there. Top ML ready prospects is where the surplus lies this time of year...not with major league players. That's how you find players to fill multiple holes.

If the Sox got Betts, that would be about it, except, perhaps for a low level prospect or 2. Don't trade him if that's the case.

 

 

Edited July 23, 2016 by GreenSox

[soxforlife05]

The Redsox aren't trading those 2 in July. If the Sox want one, wait until the offseason to fashion a trade.

What they should do is ask for their top 5 prospects, and then bargain down from there. Top ML ready prospects is where the surplus lies this time of year...not with major league players. That's how you find players to fill multiple holes.

If the Sox got Betts, that would be about it, except, perhaps for a low level prospect or 2. Don't trade him if that's the case.

 

And I don't want to ever watch another Rick Hahn lecture about the "elite" proven veteran he has just acquired. Frazier, Samardzija and $1.5 million for Turner tell me plenty about his ability to judge veteran talent. And that is the biggest misgiving I have about any sort of trade: Hahn and Williams are the evaluators and Hahn is excecuting the trade.

 

After seeing what was given up for Shelby Miller they are really better off just waiting over the next 2 years then to deal Sale/Q and pick off some desperate team that has to have either pitcher.

 

I don't want to see them moved for a mediocre package it's got to be one that everyone is blown away by. There should be no sense of urgency to move those two by the end of July.

Edited July 23, 2016 by soxforlife05

[Bigsoxhurt35]

The Redsox aren't trading those 2 in July. If the Sox want one, wait until the offseason to fashion a trade.

What they should do is ask for their top 5 prospects, and then bargain down from there. Top ML ready prospects is where the surplus lies this time of year...not with major league players. That's how you find players to fill multiple holes.

If the Sox got Betts, that would be about it, except, perhaps for a low level prospect or 2. Don't trade him if that's the case.

That's why he won't be traded. Yet anyway.

[Bigsoxhurt35]

After seeing what was given up for Shelby Miller they are really better off just waiting over the next 2 years then to deal Sale/Q and pick off some desperate team that has to have either pitcher.

 

I don't want to see them moved for a mediocre package it's got to be one that everyone is blown away by. There should be no sense of urgency to move those two by the end of July.

That's what they're doing.

[GreatScott82]

That's what they're doing.

I think Q might be dealt before this years deadline. I'm starting to get the feeling that they will hold onto Sale until after the season where you could potentially have 20 teams bidding for his services.