White Sox Listening on Sale

[greg775]

I can't believe we're not at least a .500 team the last few seasons having Sale and Q as a 1-2 punch. And generally our No. 3 hasn't been too awful a pitcher.

[Lip Man 1]

Here's a question: why does a potential Sale trade's effect on attendance matter to you guys so much? It's 2016, and attendance means so little when it comes to team revenue. It's really just an insignificant figure Cubs fans use to feel better about themselves.

 

Well it is no longer an major important factor but it does have an impact especially given parking and concessions.

 

Mark

[caulfield12]

There have been VERY FEW pitchers who moved the needle significantly in terms of home attendance.

 

The ones that come to mind in recent years (last decade or so) are Greinke in KC, Halladay in Toronto (even when they weren't good overall), King Felix in Seattle and maybe Kershaw in LA, although to a lesser extent.

 

I think if you tracked all of his Monday - Thursday home starts from 2011-2016, you might find a blip up of something like 300-500 for Sale starts, but it's not significant.

 

Rookie pitchers like Dwight Gooden, Mark the Bird Fidrych, Fernando, Dice-K or Darvish, the Mets' phenoms...those situations are few and far between.

[Dick Allen]

And people are fooling themselves if they think Sox fans will stay home next season if they start playing winning baseball in Sale's absence. Fans like yourself aren't going to change your behavior in terms of how many games you typically attend no matter how the Sox play if and when Sale is gone. Imagine what's going to happen if they start winning.

 

Do you even remember what that feels like? And Sox fans, after watching all of the excitement around the Cubs and how much fun their fans are having will heartily embrace the next Sox winning team. It's only human nature. Now to just get the team back to winning ways to prove this all out!

Yes they will. It isn't necessarily Salle not being here anymore, it is what his absence signals which is a rebuild and really not much of a chance at winning a WS, which according to you is not an exciting season. You have already told us that. Winning 99 games in 1983, not exciting. Winning 96 games in 1990, not exciting. Winning di ions in 1993,2000, 2008not exciting. Being in first place most of the season in 2012, not exciting , and attendance drop.

Edited September 14, 2016 by Dick Allen

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

To think a full rebuild will result in immediate success (I.e. more wins than this season) is one of the sillier arguments I have seen on here in some time. Also, DA and SS2K are absolutely right in that a Sale trade would signal full rebuild to the fans and absolutely negatively impact attendence and overall fan interest next season even if they get a package of Moncada and Benintendi in return. Moncada has struck out in his last 8 at-bats. If that happened in a White Sox uni combined with an OPS in the Carlos Sanchez range over an entire season, which wouldn't be surprising for a kid just getting his feet wet in the big leagues, that's sure to get Sox fans excited and out to the ballpark.

[caulfield12]

To think a full rebuild will result in immediate success (I.e. more wins than this season) is one of the sillier arguments I have seen on here in some time. Also, DA and SS2K are absolutely right in that a Sale trade would signal full rebuild to the fans and absolutely negatively impact attendence and overall fan interest next season even if they get a package of Moncada and Benintendi in return. Moncada has struck out in his last 8 at-bats. If that happened in a White Sox uni combined with an OPS in the Carlos Sanchez range over an entire season, which wouldn't be surprising for a kid just getting his feet wet in the big leagues, that's sure to get Sox fans excited and out to the ballpark.

 

Ventura started 0 or 1 for 41 or whatever.

 

Don't recall anyone getting that discouraged about Robin because of his pedigree. Moncada started off quite slowly in the Sally League last year as well.

 

Btw, why would he have that low an OPS (500's) playing in Boston's line-up? A better comp would be Buxton (than Carlos), but Moncada's going to be a much better hitter without the defensive prowess.

 

Would a team of James Shields, Billy Butler, a shaky bullpen, Narvaez, Leury or Sanchez on the roster and Coats/Avi sharing AB's do better attendance-wise if you still kept Sale, Q and Rodon?

[southsider2k5]

You seem like the typical Sox fan out there, so I expect the base, like you, won't alter their approach to attendance next year no matter what happens with Sale.

 

I am nothing like the typical Sox fan. I don't require years of winning to go to games.

[southsider2k5]

Well it is no longer an major important factor but it does have an impact especially given parking and concessions.

 

Mark

 

Attendance is the #1 determining factor for advertising, Parking, and concessions.

[southsider2k5]

Ventura started 0 or 1 for 41 or whatever.

 

Don't recall anyone getting that discouraged about Robin because of his pedigree. Moncada started off quite slowly in the Sally League last year as well.

 

Btw, why would he have that low an OPS (500's) playing in Boston's line-up? A better comp would be Buxton (than Carlos), but Moncada's going to be a much better hitter without the defensive prowess.

 

Would a team of James Shields, Billy Butler, a shaky bullpen, Narvaez, Leury or Sanchez on the roster and Coats/Avi sharing AB's do better attendance-wise if you still kept Sale, Q and Rodon?

 

There was. A lot of people thought he was rushed because he skipped AAA, and he had the big oh fer.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Not at all actually, thanks for asking. I'll go to the typical three games I make it to when I make my three typical visits to Chicago next summer. I can tell you that number won't be lower if Sale is, in fact, traded.

 

Now how about you, Dick? More games next year or fewer if Sale is traded? Going to pull back on that season ticket package if they trade Sale? According to the thinking of some, that is pretty much the inevitable outcome.

 

 

I went to about 10 games this year. I usually go about 8-10 times. I haven't gone lately because I coach HS football but if they were in the race I would have found more time to go. I'll probably go to the same amount of games with Sale or without next year unless they are in the race late in the season. If they are somehow, I'll find my way to more games.

[Thad Bosley]

To think a full rebuild will result in immediate success (I.e. more wins than this season) is one of the sillier arguments I have seen on here in some time. Also, DA and SS2K are absolutely right in that a Sale trade would signal full rebuild to the fans and absolutely negatively impact attendence and overall fan interest next season even if they get a package of Moncada and Benintendi in return. Moncada has struck out in his last 8 at-bats. If that happened in a White Sox uni combined with an OPS in the Carlos Sanchez range over an entire season, which wouldn't be surprising for a kid just getting his feet wet in the big leagues, that's sure to get Sox fans excited and out to the ballpark.

Well, two things: a.) did anyone actually even say that in this thread? and b.) the silliest argument was the one put forth suggesting the additions of Matt Wieters, Edinson Volquez and Mitch Moreland would somehow transform this currently bad team into one that could compete to win the division. Now THAT was SILLY!

[Thad Bosley]

I went to about 10 games this year. I usually go about 8-10 times. I haven't gone lately because I coach HS football but if they were in the race I would have found more time to go. I'll probably go to the same amount of games with Sale or without next year unless they are in the race late in the season. If they are somehow, I'll find my way to more games.

This is precisely my point. Thank you, Voice of Reason! Sox fans will not go to fewer games if Sale gets traded, and if the Sox actually find a way to turn it around and start winning next season and are in the race, they'll actually go to more games. It really is that simple, folks.

[gatnom]

Man, the attendance argument is really tired. Are there even that many fans to lose? What does losing a couple thousand fans per game really matter if it puts the team on a path to actually being a winning baseball team? The pocket change that the team loses in the short term pales in comparison to the revenue they would generate if they would go on a sustained run of winning.

 

Obviously, people disagree on whether or not there should be a rebuild, but the amount of fans that show up next year is the dumbest argument I've heard, for or against it.

 

 

[Thad Bosley]

I am nothing like the typical Sox fan. I don't require years of winning to go to games.

Mmmmmmmmm..."years of winning". Wonder what that's like! Would be great to find out, wouldn't it!

[Hatchetman]

Obviously, people disagree on whether or not there should be a rebuild, but the amount of fans that show up next year is the dumbest argument I've heard, for or against it.

 

no kidding.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

This is precisely my point. Thank you, Voice of Reason! Sox fans will not go to fewer games if Sale gets traded, and if the Sox actually find a way to turn it around and start winning next season and are in the race, they'll actually go to more games. It really is that simple, folks.

 

 

Except recent history shows the exact opposite, but you are completely ignoring that.

[Hatchetman]

I actually did the statistically analysis that showed winning and attendance were positively correlated. Someone could take it a step further and account for consecutive winning seasons, playoffs, strikes, new ballparks, etc.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Well, two things: a.) did anyone actually even say that in this thread? and b.) the silliest argument was the one put forth suggesting the additions of Matt Wieters, Edinson Volquez and Mitch Moreland would somehow transform this currently bad team into one that could compete to win the division. Now THAT was SILLY!

A) your whole argument with SS2K is based on the notion that trading Sale will result in more wins next season which will lead to an increase in attendence so yes you did actually say it without saying it. If you don't think the Sox will win more games next season by trading Sale then why are you even arguing?

B) of course you left out Fowler and I stand by my opinion that these 4 acquisitions plus an improved bullpen absolutely put the Sox in a position to compete next season. Already stated this before but the Sox are 7-20 when Ranaudo/Shields/Danks start. Give me an average starter in place of these dopes and that results in a 13-14 record in those games (not asking for much). Consequently, the team is 6 wins better with just that one move: 76-68 or 3 GB of the wild card. Again, that's just addressing 1 spot on the 25 man roster while leaving the rest untouched.

[NCsoxfan]

How many home games does Sale pitch per year? 15? Are there a substantial amount of people that ONLY attend because Sale is pitching? Maybe some, but I have a hard time believing it's a material amount given how abysmal attendance is anyways.

[Lip Man 1]

Attendance is the #1 determining factor for advertising, Parking, and concessions.

 

My comment was in response to a poster mentioning that attendance is no longer the main issue regarding team revenue and he's correct to a large extent but it does remain a factor.

 

Mark

[Lip Man 1]

I am nothing like the typical Sox fan. I don't require years of winning to go to games.

 

Good for you! Clap...clap...clap.

 

Mark

[Lip Man 1]

Man, the attendance argument is really tired. Are there even that many fans to lose? What does losing a couple thousand fans per game really matter if it puts the team on a path to actually being a winning baseball team? The pocket change that the team loses in the short term pales in comparison to the revenue they would generate if they would go on a sustained run of winning.

 

Obviously, people disagree on whether or not there should be a rebuild, but the amount of fans that show up next year is the dumbest argument I've heard, for or against it.

 

Well said.

 

Mark

[caulfield12]

A) your whole argument with SS2K is based on the notion that trading Sale will result in more wins next season which will lead to an increase in attendence so yes you did actually say it without saying it. If you don't think the Sox will win more games next season by trading Sale then why are you even arguing?

B) of course you left out Fowler and I stand by my opinion that these 4 acquisitions plus an improved bullpen absolutely put the Sox in a position to compete next season. Already stated this before but the Sox are 7-20 when Ranaudo/Shields/Danks start. Give me an average starter in place of these dopes and that results in a 13-14 record in those games (not asking for much). Consequently, the team is 6 wins better with just that one move: 76-68 or 3 GB of the wild card. Again, that's just addressing 1 spot on the 25 man roster while leaving the rest untouched.

 

The problem is you can do the same thing with the Royals and Tigers.

 

Strip away KC's fifth starter and they're on a pace for 94 wins and the playoffs despite everything else (tepid offense, Soria, injuries, Yost).

 

Take away Sanchez and Pelfrey, the Tigers suddenly become one of the best teams in baseball despite JD Martinez, Castellanos and Maybin missing time.

[Y2Jimmy0]

How many home games does Sale pitch per year? 15? Are there a substantial amount of people that ONLY attend because Sale is pitching? Maybe some, but I have a hard time believing it's a material amount given how abysmal attendance is anyways.

 

 

I usually try to see Sale, Q, or Rodon when I go. Sale pitching is definitely an extra incentive for me but it's not a deal breaker.

[Thad Bosley]

A) your whole argument with SS2K is based on the notion that trading Sale will result in more wins next season which will lead to an increase in attendence so yes you did actually say it without saying it. If you don't think the Sox will win more games next season by trading Sale then why are you even arguing?

B) of course you left out Fowler and I stand by my opinion that these 4 acquisitions plus an improved bullpen absolutely put the Sox in a position to compete next season. Already stated this before but the Sox are 7-20 when Ranaudo/Shields/Danks start. Give me an average starter in place of these dopes and that results in a 13-14 record in those games (not asking for much). Consequently, the team is 6 wins better with just that one move: 76-68 or 3 GB of the wild card. Again, that's just addressing 1 spot on the 25 man roster while leaving the rest untouched.

Actually, I said no such thing. Go back and read a little bit closer. I never said trading Sale would result in more wins next season. Never said that once. What I said was attendance would not go down with a trade of Sale IF the team turned things around and started playing winning baseball next year. Another poster said attendance was going to go down no matter what in the event Sale was traded, and I simply countered that winning baseball would prevent that from happening. Big difference.