Bigsoxhurt35 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 "Mired in mediocrity" then only trades Zach Duke. Gutless franchise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Jack29 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 03:28 PM) Its not just Sale, I don't think anyone minds the idea of holding Sale and Q to the winter. Its keeping guys like Frazier, Cabrera, Robertson, Shields, and Gonzalez, guys that have their values enhanced by teams being in win now mode and the limited availability of assets. Those are the guys you need to get deals for. The market for closers and the releif market in general has been insane, and the Sox failed to capitalize. The Yankees just pulled in a pitcher drafter 1.4 last year for two months of 39 yo Carlos Beltran. There were plenty of deals to be made. The FO did nothing to improve the future (long and short term) of this team. One thing to consider is that if they dealt all of those guys, they wouldn't have a team to put on the field next season. The FA market this winter is going to be very slim. I don't know why they didn't deal Robertson and Gonzalez. I understand why they didn't deal the rest of them. Edited August 1, 2016 by Black_Jack29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 03:33 PM) One thing to consider is that if they dealt all of those guys, they wouldn't have a team to put on the field next season. The FA market this winter is going to be very slim. I don't know why they didn't deal Robertson and Gonzalez. I understand why they didn't deal the rest of them. So how can this team rise up from mediocre status with a lousy FA market this winter? We have very little to trade, I don't think we have all that much flexibility with the payroll. How are we not looking at more or less the same team next season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Jack29 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 QUOTE (TRU @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 03:37 PM) So how can this team rise up from mediocre status with a lousy FA market this winter? We have very little to trade, I don't think we have all that much flexibility with the payroll. How are we not looking at more or less the same team next season? Because the Sox can trade players this winter, when you have a larger trade market (not just contenders) and this season's playoff teams may be willing to deal ML talent, and not just prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipps Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 I would feel better if the FO gave the fans some sort of idea to their line of thinking and the grand scheme of things but I am sure its hard for them to be transparent when they have no idea what the hell the plan is themselves. I dont think I fully realized or accepted until now that they have been winging every move they make as they go for years. They arent measured and methodical but are just simpletons who see what they have a taste for once dinner time comes around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighurt574 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 03:28 PM) Its not just Sale, I don't think anyone minds the idea of holding Sale and Q to the winter. Its keeping guys like Frazier, Cabrera, Robertson, Shields, and Gonzalez, guys that have their values enhanced by teams being in win now mode and the limited availability of assets. Those are the guys you need to get deals for. The market for closers and the releif market in general has been insane, and the Sox failed to capitalize. The Yankees just pulled in a pitcher drafter 1.4 last year for two months of 39 yo Carlos Beltran. There were plenty of deals to be made. The FO did nothing to improve the future (long and short term) of this team. Those guys are generally under contract for next year. They obviously plan to try to compete again in 2017. We'll see how that one works out. I'm certainly skeptical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 03:40 PM) Because the Sox can trade players this winter, when you have a larger trade market (not just contenders) and this season's playoff teams may be willing to deal ML talent, and not just prospects. There is no situation where you trade Sale and/or Quintana AND still be able to compete next season. No other position player on this team worth trading will bring back anything to change that as well. If this team is going to compete, it needs to 1.) Sign Free Agents or 2.) Trade prospects for established players. There is no realistic situation where one of Sale, Q, or Eaton are traded and the big league team gets better. This team is begging for a rebuild, enough half measures already Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (flavum @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 03:16 PM) Disappointed and surprised nothing happened, but considering the weak free agent market, I'm willing to be patient to see what happens by mid December. That's what scares me- that they might buy into that market rather than sell. Edited August 1, 2016 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Jack29 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 QUOTE (TRU @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 02:45 PM) There is no situation where you trade Sale and/or Quintana AND still be able to compete next season. No other position player on this team worth trading will bring back anything to change that as well. If this team is going to compete, it needs to 1.) Sign Free Agents or 2.) Trade prospects for established players. There is no realistic situation where one of Sale, Q, or Eaton are traded and the big league team gets better. This team is begging for a rebuild, enough half measures already or 3.) trade Sale for a package of prospects AND a young, established player I tend to agree that, regardless of what they do, the Sox will not be contenders in 2017. That said, if they make the right moves this winter, they could have a solid team in 2018. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 SOS Sox front office................standard line will be we really really tried! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 03:51 PM) or 3.) trade Sale for a package of prospects AND a young, established player I tend to agree that, regardless of what they do, the Sox will not be contenders in 2017. That said, if they make the right moves this winter, they could have a solid team in 2018. You cant trade Sale if you want to compete. He is young, he has a great contract, and he is one of the best pitchers in the league. Why on earth would you trade that guy with the mindset that you are trying to make the playoffs and win a championship? Cant and wont be done. Nobody else thinks Q is elite except for Soxtalk, you aren't getting players and prospects for him in a deal. The Sox basically have two choices, rebuild or keep trying to make fetch happen. Its not going to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Your 2016 MLB Trade Deadline Winners: Yankees Rangers Indians Giants Dodgers Your 2016 MLB Trade Deadline Losers: White Sox White Sox White Sox White Sox White Sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Princess Dye Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 We're a meh team, yet we're shocked teams werent bowling us over for our meh players. Sale and Q are two of our best players, but there was barely a rumor out there that our price was being met. Every other single player though has to ...not be a shock. Assets leaguewide went out for equal relievers cheaper than Robertson. Melky is mercurial. Frazier's defense has dropped per saber this year. Shields was taken apart from an advanced stat perspective recently and the whole league read it. Plus he brings the double edged sword of the opt out. If he's awful you may owe him for two years. If he's great, you lose all control of him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Jack29 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 QUOTE (TRU @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 03:16 PM) You cant trade Sale if you want to compete. He is young, he has a great contract, and he is one of the best pitchers in the league. Why on earth would you trade that guy with the mindset that you are trying to make the playoffs and win a championship? Cant and wont be done. You pretty much have to trade Sale when your ML squad can't score enough runs play .500 ball, you have no offensive talent in your farm system, and you don't have the money to fill the holes via free agency. If you can deal Sale and Melky for Bradley or Betts, plus two other Top 5 prospects in the Red Sox system, you have better chance of competing in 2018 without Sale than you do with him and the current cast of aging mediocrity around him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 Not going to be disappointed until I see what they do this winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 04:24 PM) You pretty much have to trade Sale when your ML squad can't score enough runs play .500 ball, you have no offensive talent in your farm system, and you don't have the money to fill the holes via free agency. If you can deal Sale and Melky for Bradley or Betts, plus two other Top 5 prospects in the Red Sox system, you have better chance of competing in 2018 without Sale than you do with him and the current cast of aging mediocrity around him. If the Sox couldn't even get 4-5 of the Red Sox top prospects for Sale, what makes you think Sale and Melky gets you, not only, Bradley or Betts BUT ALSO 2 other top 5 prospects? Im really not trying to argue you with you, I am just flustered from this deadline where we took a step back and accepted being mediocre for the second year in a row. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Jack29 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 QUOTE (TRU @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 04:46 PM) If the Sox couldn't even get 4-5 of the Red Sox top prospects for Sale, what makes you think Sale and Melky gets you, not only, Bradley or Betts BUT ALSO 2 other top 5 prospects? If you're arguing that Sale and his contract are worth less than that, you're fooling yourself. The fact that Hahn didn't reach an agreement with Dombrowski today doesn't prove anything, as none of us know what they discussed. Given that the Red Sox didn't trade for a starting pitcher with another team, it's possible that they had limited interest in Sale to begin with and were prepared to go into the playoffs as is. That could change this winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigsoxhurt35 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 I'm fine with not moving Sale or Q. Don't get fleeced by DD because he usually does that to teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swingandalongonetoleft Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) New banner proposal in light of recent trade deadline adventures: I'm fine with not moving the big pieces- I'd rather hold than sell just to sell, but there were others around baseball moving around similar to guys the Sox chose not to move for whatever reason. Edited August 1, 2016 by Swingandalongonetoleft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 04:20 PM) Shields was taken apart from an advanced stat perspective recently and the whole league read it. Plus he brings the double edged sword of the opt out. If he's awful you may owe him for two years. If he's great, you lose all control of him. There is no possible scenario that Shields could be great enough to opt out from $22 million. He's just not a good pitcher. A salary dump would be win for the Sox at this point (mitigating some of the sunk cost). Edited August 1, 2016 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 05:00 PM) If you're arguing that Sale and his contract are worth less than that, you're fooling yourself. The fact that Hahn didn't reach an agreement with Dombrowski today doesn't prove anything, as none of us know what they discussed. Given that the Red Sox didn't trade for a starting pitcher with another team, it's possible that they had limited interest in Sale to begin with and were prepared to go into the playoffs as is. That could change this winter. Betts is worth more than Sale alone, if the Red Sox believe this year's Bradley is the real one then he is too. If they wouldn't budge on Moncada then they're probably not going to budge on two guys worth more than Moncada. We just have to hope they'll give in on a Benintendi/Moncada combo in the winter. Hopefully their pitching blows up down the stretch and they miss the playoffs. That's the best shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Jack29 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 05:11 PM) Betts is worth more than Sale alone We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Betts is a really nice player, but he's not a perennial All-Star with borderline-HOF skills. Starting pitchers can also dominate a game by themselves, and that makes them more valuable to a playoff team than a single position player. Betts' main advantage over Sale is that he's cheaper and under team control for one extra year. Edited August 1, 2016 by Black_Jack29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harfman77 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 05:16 PM) We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Betts is a really nice player, but he's not a perennial All-Star with borderline-HOF skills. His main advantage over Sale is that he's cheaper and under team control for one extra year. Hes all star at 23 and finished in the top 20 of MVP voting as a 22 year old rookie. And he plays in 150 more games a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmarComing25 Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Aug 1, 2016 -> 05:16 PM) We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Betts is a really nice player, but he's not a perennial All-Star with borderline-HOF skills. Starting pitchers can also dominate a game by themselves, and that makes them more valuable to a playoff team than a single position player. Betts' main advantage over Sale is that he's cheaper and under team control for one extra year. IMO he's already a top 10 player in the league (9th in WAR over the last season and a half) and he's still just 23. Since the beginning of last season he's provided more value than Sale, he's really really good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted August 1, 2016 Share Posted August 1, 2016 QUOTE (Dunt @ Jul 30, 2016 -> 06:34 PM) I really thought something was going to happen by now, but the more I see tweets and whispers, the more I think this deadline is going to be another f***ing dud. What is supposed to motivate this fanbase anymore? Serious question. I was ok with their moves or lack of moves. Plenty of time to do things over the winter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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