Is this a PR Disaster for the Sox?

[shipps]

Ever since the team completely fell on their face once the 2015 season began a year and a half ago it seems Hahn has lost a lot of, if not all, the confidence and trust from the fan base and it appears it isn't repairable. The public sees a FO that doesnt seem to be in line with one another. There is no synergy throughout the organization (Phil Emery reference:)). The moves that have been made have rarely panned out which were questioned by many at the time they were made. Admittedly some of the moves many of us liked, but because of the trust that we had in them that they were doing the right thing and that they were going according to plan (2-3 year window which they spoke of). They give constant mixed signals in the media, whether it be different directions of philosophy from KW and Hahn or what they are thinking one week being different from what they just said the week before. They build up ideas through the media to the fans that they dont quite follow through with and it leaves the fans in an outrage because they did not meet the expectations that THEY PUT IN OUR HEADS. When they talk about going for it they strike out on all the big FA's that were available. They talk about identifying that this team isnt good enough and they have to get better before the trade deadline only to trade a bullpen arm in Duke which is one of the last guys you would think we needed to move. They have a 12 year old leader spark a revolt in the locker room during spring training. They have the best player cutting up jerseys on game day. No one shows respect for their manager publicly.

 

They all do a terrible job of building a good relationship with the media and fans. There is no confidence in the team currently or for the future, nobody shows up to games, poor TV ratings and the core fan base (Us) which has always been strong is straying away from having any interest or respect for the organization whatsoever.

 

Could the Sox be a team that relocates in the next decade? I dont see the support waiting to be there for them even if they do come around and have a surprise season next year or the year after. It wont come until they change from the top down.

[Y2Jimmy0]

No.

[Black_Jack29]

Similar posts could have been made back in 1988 and 1998. I'd argue that the Sox are in a better situation now than they were in those years.

 

[The Sir]

I really doubt they relocate, but since I've spent five nights total in Chicago since 1998 (I've used those nights efficiently, as I've seen five games at USCF in that time), I'll root for the Las Vegas White Sox every bit as much as the Chicago White Sox.

Edited August 2, 2016 by StrykerSox

[shysocks]

Ever since the team completely fell on their face once the 2015 season began a year and a half ago it seems Hahn has lost a lot of, if not all, the confidence and trust from the fan base and it appears it isn't repairable. The public sees a FO that doesnt seem to be in line with one another. There is no synergy throughout the organization (Phil Emery reference:)). The moves that have been made have rarely panned out which were questioned by many at the time they were made. Admittedly some of the moves many of us liked, but because of the trust that we had in them that they were doing the right thing and that they were going according to plan (2-3 year window which they spoke of). They give constant mixed signals in the media, whether it be different directions of philosophy from KW and Hahn or what they are thinking one week being different from what they just said the week before. They build up ideas through the media to the fans that they dont quite follow through with and it leaves the fans in an outrage because they did not meet the expectations that THEY PUT IN OUR HEADS. When they talk about going for it they strike out on all the big FA's that were available. They talk about identifying that this team isnt good enough and they have to get better before the trade deadline only to trade a bullpen arm in Duke which is one of the last guys you would think we needed to move. They have a 12 year old leader spark a revolt in the locker room during spring training. They have the best player cutting up jerseys on game day. No one shows respect for their manager publicly.

 

They all do a terrible job of building a good relationship with the media and fans. There is no confidence in the team currently or for the future, nobody shows up to games, poor TV ratings and the core fan base (Us) which has always been strong is straying away from having any interest or respect for the organization whatsoever.

 

Could the Sox be a team that relocates in the next decade? I dont see the support waiting to be there for them even if they do come around and have a surprise season next year or the year after. It wont come until they change from the top down.

I don't know about relocation, and I don't really wanna think about it because it breaks my heart.

 

What has become clearer to me over time, through cryptic and not-so-cryptic tweets like Buster Olney's about a leadership crisis, through quotes from Kenny and Hahn, that the Sox have inconsistent leadership at best and dysfunctional at worst. At the highest levels of the front office, there is obscurity about roles at best and a serious power struggle at worst. It puts the Sox at a competitive disadvantage from the teams whose management all swim in the same direction and it's going to be very hard to win until something changes.

[Harry Chappas]

No.

 

You said it perfectly

Edited August 2, 2016 by Harry Chappas

[shipps]

No.

 

What a ringing endorsement for no.

 

I could definitely see them heading in a direction that it is at the very least a possibility that they may pull from the city. How many more years are we going to be able to get by with having atrocious attendance and ratings that continually drop? Let alone a core fan base that is sincerely jumping ship from supporting this team in any way.

[chetkincaid]

What a ringing endorsement for no.

 

I could definitely see them heading in a direction that it is at the very least a possibility that they may pull from the city. How many more years are we going to be able to get by with having atrocious attendance and ratings that continually drop? Let alone a core fan base that is sincerely jumping ship from supporting this team in any way.

 

ESPECIALLY if that other Chicago team goes on a Yankees like run and takes over the city. What young kid is going to want to be a White Sox fan?

 

 

[Quin]

ESPECIALLY if that other Chicago team goes on a Yankees like run and takes over the city. What young kid is going to want to be a White Sox fan?

 

The Cubs have no effect on the White Sox

[GreenSox]

Similar posts could have been made back in 1988 and 1998. I'd argue that the Sox are in a better situation now than they were in those years.

In terms of organizational strength (personnel), the Sox are much weaker now than in 1998; 1988 may have been weaker, but that was in the process of changing, with successive drafts of Thomas, Ventura, McDowell and Fernandez et al, coupled with several clever trades, the type of which Williams/Hahn were unable to accomplish (and really aren't trying to accomplish).

[bmags]

I had never seen an alignment of fan and media preference for selling like before this, and the shock when it didn't happen (aside from Q/Sale). Unless you are Rongey, you were disappointed. Had we sold I'd have a lot to look forward to next year even though winning wouldn't happen. But now it's just...bleh. I'm sure we'll try and go for it, fail, and we wasted 3 straight years pushing what anyone with eyes could tell you wasn't good enough.

[Southwest Sider]

This team desperately needs new ownership. JRs glory years are behind him. However, I highly doubt MLB would allow an owner who intended to move the team purchase the team. The market is here for the White Sox, they just need to figure out how to have a top 10 farm system, and spend just enough to round out the edges. Makeshift teams of other teams castoffs is not a recipe for success, and it seems like management (KW?) continues to try and emulate what happened in 2005. It's not happening.

 

JR is too nice. We all wish he would see what other teams like the Red Sox, Astros, Royals, Cubs etc. are doing and try to emulate that, but he would need entirely new management. I wish he would just stick 2005 in his pocket and call it a career, because his strategy for winning is not a very good one. Also, at this point, he's probably just too old to consider a rebuild. This team needs a progressive, younger owner that is willing to invest what it takes to make this team great.

 

I don't know that this trade period is a PR disaster, though. Hardcore fans like ourselves seem to mostly want a rebuild because we see it as the best possible way of obtaining sustained success. Actually, come to think of it, I think either option (gut the team or keep the team) is a PR nightmare simply because the team has sucked for years. If you gut the team, everyone who loves Sale, Q etc. will be mad at the Sox for not being able to build around their favorite players, and selling off a HOF pitcher. If you keep the team, other fans will be mad because they aren't selling their valuable assets off in order to rebuild and maybe be competitive by 2018. There's no winning.

 

The only saving grace here, and I mean the only one is that none of the players are going to be leaving for free yet. Zach Duke was going to be a free agent and I'd argue our return from St. Louis trumps draft pick compensation (which we probably wouldn't have offered. ~16 million for a reliever? No thanks). I know no one wants to hear this, but the Sox can still try and compete next year. Maybe Abreu turns it around. That would be huge. Maybe we can add another important offensive piece or two to this team.

 

I definitely don't see the Sox being true competitors next year, though. It would require a lot to happen right. Gonzalez and Shields need to keep it up. The bullpen needs to stop sucking. Frazier needs to keep hitting homers and raise that average a tad. Abreu needs to go back to Rookie Abreu. Tim Anderson and Rodon need to get close to their ceilings. They need a legit catcher and a legit center fielder. I just don't see it happening, because the hardest part of all this is acquiring a legit catcher and center fielder.

 

I see the Sox reloading rather than rebuilding this offseason. I think it is harder for the Sox to sell Sale or Q in the offseason because teams will offer players from their MLB roster. That does nothing to help the Sox. I don't want to trade Sale or Q for Mookie Betts because then your starting pitching goes from great to ok. Sure, now you have Mookie Betts, which is great, but you need quality MLB pitching to compete.

 

These are some dark times for White Sox fans. I won't be very pleased if the Sox go for it next year out of fear that we will continue to see what we always see: mediocrity. Maybe the Sox will get lucky and catch lightning in a bottle again, but I think you will truly see the selling begin at next years trade deadline, and then into the following offseason. Melky, Lawrie and Frazier will be impending free agents. They will be easier to move because teams probably would want them as rentals only. David Robertson at 1.5 years is less of a commitment than 2.5. Sale and Q will be slightly less valuable due to having 1 less year of control, which would slightly lower the Sox asking price and maybe make them easier to move. Perhaps Abreu turns it around and you can also trade him for a kings ransom. The only worry is the pitchers. You have to hope that Sale and Q's arms don't fall off, because they are your golden tickets out of this mess. If they get hurt, you can kiss a great rebuild goodbye.

 

I have to say, if this holds true and the Sox go for it in 2017, and sell by the deadline when things aren't working, that will align with a supposed "3 year plan", which is try to compete with the core. Acquire short term assets to not hamstring yourself in the future. If it doesn't work, sell sell sell by the end of year 3.

Edited August 2, 2016 by South Sider

[Southwest Sider]

ESPECIALLY if that other Chicago team goes on a Yankees like run and takes over the city. What young kid is going to want to be a White Sox fan?

 

The Mets still have a solid fanbase. Granted, New York is a different animal than Chicago, but I think that shows us that not all is lost for the Sox in Chicago should the Cubs become a dynasty.

[Black_Jack29]

In terms of organizational strength (personnel), the Sox are much weaker now than in 1998; 1988 may have been weaker, but that was in the process of changing, with successive drafts of Thomas, Ventura, McDowell and Fernandez et al, coupled with several clever trades, the type of which Williams/Hahn were unable to accomplish (and really aren't trying to accomplish).

 

The Sox farm system was in better shape in those years, but Reinsdorf was threatening to move the Sox to Florida in 1988. In the late '90s, the Sox were still reeling from the '94 strike and the White Flag trade.

 

People need to step off the ledge and stop with the drama. The Sox have most definitely been in worse shape in the past than they are now.

 

[Black_Jack29]

ESPECIALLY if that other Chicago team goes on a Yankees like run and takes over the city. What young kid is going to want to be a White Sox fan?

 

The Cubs have been the most popular team in Chicago since the mid-80s. Win or lose, they have fans.

 

Same goes for the Red Sox in the Northeast. Their fan base hasn't changed much since 2004.

 

[shipps]

The Sox farm system was in better shape in those years, but Reinsdorf was threatening to move the Sox to Florida in 1988. In the late '90s, the Sox were still reeling from the '94 strike and the White Flag trade.

 

People need to step off the ledge and stop with the drama. The Sox have most definitely been in worse shape in the past than they are now.

 

That may be but that isnt the point really. They havent even hit rock bottom yet, if you can believe that. It is feasible that its only going to get worse from here, not better, seeing the direction or lack of direction as a franchise is leading a detached fan base.

[Lip Man 1]

Ever since the team completely fell on their face once the 2015 season began a year and a half ago it seems Hahn has lost a lot of, if not all, the confidence and trust from the fan base and it appears it isn't repairable. The public sees a FO that doesnt seem to be in line with one another. There is no synergy throughout the organization (Phil Emery reference:)). The moves that have been made have rarely panned out which were questioned by many at the time they were made. Admittedly some of the moves many of us liked, but because of the trust that we had in them that they were doing the right thing and that they were going according to plan (2-3 year window which they spoke of). They give constant mixed signals in the media, whether it be different directions of philosophy from KW and Hahn or what they are thinking one week being different from what they just said the week before. They build up ideas through the media to the fans that they dont quite follow through with and it leaves the fans in an outrage because they did not meet the expectations that THEY PUT IN OUR HEADS. When they talk about going for it they strike out on all the big FA's that were available. They talk about identifying that this team isnt good enough and they have to get better before the trade deadline only to trade a bullpen arm in Duke which is one of the last guys you would think we needed to move. They have a 12 year old leader spark a revolt in the locker room during spring training. They have the best player cutting up jerseys on game day. No one shows respect for their manager publicly.

 

They all do a terrible job of building a good relationship with the media and fans. There is no confidence in the team currently or for the future, nobody shows up to games, poor TV ratings and the core fan base (Us) which has always been strong is straying away from having any interest or respect for the organization whatsoever.

 

Could the Sox be a team that relocates in the next decade? I dont see the support waiting to be there for them even if they do come around and have a surprise season next year or the year after. It wont come until they change from the top down.

 

Well things aren't going well on a number of fronts for this organization including the worst stretch of sustained bad baseball since the period from 1968-1980 if they have their seventh losing season in ten years this year...but moving? Just can't see it because of the good stadium lease and the money the franchise is making.

 

And make no bones about it, they are in good shape financially.

 

Mark

 

[Black_Jack29]

That may be but that isnt the point really. They havent even hit rock bottom yet, if you can believe that. It is feasible that its only going to get worse from here, not better, seeing the direction or lack of direction as a franchise is leading a detached fan base.

 

Yes, but they still have a LONG way to go before they hit rock bottom. You and others seem to assume that their current trajectory isn't going to change until they can't draw flies and are forced to move to Las Vegas. I really doubt that's going to happen.

 

Look at the Sox in the '90s. They went from division champs to the best team in the AL to the strike. And then they began selling off their pitching staff, tried to get back to competitiveness with two key FA signings, sold off at the end of July, and pissed off the fan base again. Then they continued to lose key players to free agency and bottomed out in 1999. Then they won 95 games in 2000 and their fortunes were suddenly reversed.

 

I'm not saying that the Sox are going to win 95 games next year (or the following year), but history strongly suggests that they're not going to marinate in mediocrity forever and eventually fade into nonexistence. They have a handful of really nice players who are under contract for the next 4-5 years and a farm system that's beginning to come back. If they can trade Sale sometime in the next 12 months, they'll be in even better shape down the road.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Black_Jack29

[chetkincaid]

The Mets still have a solid fanbase. Granted, New York is a different animal than Chicago, but I think that shows us that not all is lost for the Sox in Chicago should the Cubs become a dynasty.

 

Yeah but how many more people are in the New York metropolitan area? Way more than Chicago.

[Black_Jack29]

Well things aren't going well on a number of fronts for this organization including the worst stretch of sustained bad baseball since the period from 1968-1980 if they have their seventh losing season in ten years this year...but moving? Just can't see it because of the good stadium lease and the money the franchise is making.

 

And make no bones about it, they are in good shape financially.

 

Mark

 

The only thing that would force the Sox to move will be a significant erosion of the economic environment of the Chicago area. If Chicago turns into Detroit, I don't think that it could support two baseball teams. But I don't see that happening.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Black_Jack29

[StrangeSox]

I'm not saying that the Sox are going to win 95 games next year (or the following year), but history has shown that they're not going to marinate in mediocrity forever and eventually fade into nonexistence. They have a handful of really nice players who are under contract for the next 4-5 years and a farm system that's beginning to come back. If they can trade Sale sometime in the next 12 months, they'll be in even better shape down the road.

 

Outside of barely squeaking into the playoffs in '08, they've been pretty mediocre or worse for almost a decade now. How many more years of garbage can we expect before they're relevant again? How much better could things have been if they hadn't tried the same bad plan for years and years?

[chetkincaid]

The Cubs have been the most popular team in Chicago since the mid-80s. Win or lose, they have fans.

 

Same goes for the Red Sox in the Northeast. Their fan base hasn't changed much since 2004.

 

 

And that team in the north hasn't won a world series in over 100 years. I imagine their fan base will increase if they became a dynasty like the Yankees. That will be especially bad for the White Sox if they continue to be inept.

[Black_Jack29]

And that team in the north hasn't won a world series in over 100 years. I imagine their fan base will increase if they became a dynasty like the Yankees. That will be especially bad for the White Sox if they continue to be inept.

 

Again, the Red Sox didn't permanently take over all of the Northeast after they had their own Yankees-like dynasty.

 

Given that the majority of the Cubs fan base consists of very casual fans, any bump that the Cubs get in popularity from a WS is unlikely to be permanent.

 

[Flash Tizzle]

This deadline was a PR disaster for the White Sox, and I couldn't be happier. This relationship of collective disgust between fans and the media will hopefully suggest to Hahn that complacency and shoulder shrugging ("oh well lets try it all again next year") won't be tolerated.

 

The members here on Soxtalk are representative of the loyal part of fanbase, and while we're a small number, many have taken a financial stance against the White Sox. I'll tune into games, but I'm not spending my money on tickets, parking, food, and adult beverages to watch this nonsense in person. The greatest failure of the last 10 years is not taking advantage of the 2005 WS title. We had Chicago's attention, attendance spiked.......then the White Sox do what they always do and fell flat. JR and company can blame the fans but it's their fault attendance is miserable and ratings low. Our fanbase is unique in that they don't support a loser. Yes, that could be JR's reason NOT to have a fire sale; but they're not showing up anyway. Why not just accept several years of attendance failure to in turn set up multiple years of playoff success?! Atleast try it, we've seen how the "rebuilding on the fly" alternative has gone

[WBWSF]

No!!!! All they have to do is get hot the next 2 months and get into the 2016 Playoffs. Once that happens everything will be fine.