Rick Hahn on Inside the Clubhouse

[Thad Bosley]

2015 happened because they had some nice pieces and jerry couldn't sit on his hands no longer to let them keep building up. He accelerated it and wanted to compete. Problem is there were still too many holes on the roster. Keep patching things and wanting to win isnt helping and hahn is the only one to acknowledge that. Havent heard anything from kenny or jerry about it. Hell kenny didn't even know of they were buying or selling.

A team that claims they want "to compete" and which came in last in offense last year does not pass up acquiring the very available Yoenis Cespedes and/or Ian Desmond last offseason in favor of Austin Jackson and Jimmy Rollins. I mean, enough with this "we want to compete" business already. Actions speak louder than words.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Thad Bosley

[ptatc]

A team that claims they want "to compete" and which came in last in offense last year does not pass up acquiring the very available Yoenis Cespedes and/or Ian Desmond last offseason in favor of Austin Jackson and Jimmy Rollins. I mean, enough with this "we want to compete" business already. Actions speak louder than words.

I think the point you are missing is that they refuse to overpay for what they consider fair value for anything. They aren't going to overpay in money or trade value. They didn't think cespedes was worth 30 million for one year and they didn't consider Desmond worth the money plus draft pick.

 

They run it like the NFL draft for value. They place a certain value on a player and won't go over it. So they want to compete but aren't going to overpay for anyone. They could have overpaid for Cespedes and it may have worked, however what if they overpaid for Upton or Gordon? Would you still be saying the same thing or would you be saying that they overpaid for bad players?

[Whisox05]

A team that claims they want "to compete" and which came in last in offense last year does not pass up acquiring the very available Yoenis Cespedes and/or Ian Desmond last offseason in favor of Austin Jackson and Jimmy Rollins. I mean, enough with this "we want to compete" business already. Actions speak louder than words.

 

Again the side effect of not spending money. Jerry wants to compete at a level hes comfortable at. They dont give out large contracts but yet again dont have a farm system to aquire the holes that need to be filled. Again you dont hear crap coming from jerry on the whole subject. Definitely dont hear much from kenny.

[Dunt]

I think the point you are missing is that they refuse to overpay for what they consider fair value for anything. They aren't going to overpay in money or trade value. They didn't think cespedes was worth 30 million for one year and they didn't consider Desmond worth the money plus draft pick.

 

They run it like the NFL draft for value. They place a certain value on a player and won't go over it. So they want to compete but aren't going to overpay for anyone. They could have overpaid for Cespedes and it may have worked, however what if they overpaid for Upton or Gordon? Would you still be saying the same thing or would you be saying that they overpaid for bad players?

 

Problem is you need to overspend to compensate for an inability to develop prospects

[ptatc]

Problem is you need to overspend to compensate for an inability to develop prospects

That would only hurt the team in the long run. The better option is to draft and develop better while filling the gaps with players they think are at value.

[Buehrlesque]

2015 happened because they had some nice pieces and jerry couldn't sit on his hands no longer to let them keep building up. He accelerated it and wanted to compete. Problem is there were still too many holes on the roster. Keep patching things and wanting to win isnt helping and hahn is the only one to acknowledge that. Havent heard anything from kenny or jerry about it. Hell kenny didn't even know of they were buying or selling.

This is a great point. Hahn knew he inherited a mess in 2013 and started by making some solid moves: acquiring Abreu, Eaton, Avi (plus Montas and the rest of the Peavy trade) and Davidson. That's a great start on rebuilding. Problem was, they switched their philosophy before the team was ready for it. They spent a lot of money, traded away prospects and gave up two high draft picks to put together a so-so team in 2015. There was a good amount of buzz at the time when they "won the winter." It didn't work due to some horrendously-timed slumps and some of the worst team defense and baserunning I have ever seen.

 

Then they did it again last winter. They'll probably do it again this winter. Hard to blame a guy for wanting to go for it, but I just wish they took better inventory of their assets and strengthens/weaknesses and more properly evaluated their chances. If they get a new manager and legit OF or two (it's a weak FA class, yes, but there's still Cespedes, Reddick, Fowler, Encarnacion, CarGo rental), plus a real catcher, then take a typical White Sox flier (Puig or Carlos Gomez), they probably feel they will have enough for fans to dream on. And I think they're right: enough Sox fans would buy in, regardless of all the bitterness of the past two years of failures.

[Buehrlesque]

That would only hurt the team in the long run. The better option is to draft and develop better while filling the gaps with players they think are at value.

I agree with this, and thus was OK losing out on guys like Heyward and Cespedes, etc. last winter. But passing on Fowler and Desmond was 100% unacceptable -- not in retrospect since they've been good -- but at the time. Super cheap relative to the market and super short term.

[Flash Tizzle]

That would only hurt the team in the long run. The better option is to draft and develop better while filling the gaps with players they think are at value.

Filling in the gaps with players THEY think are at market value has them dumpster diving. I think we all should agree that this is in part why they're at their current position.

 

White Sox need accountability with their prospects and expectations need to be met. Look at their current system, it's embarrassing. For a team needing to rely on a draft so heavily we should expect successful drafts. No excuses, no "bad luck with player x being injured," nothing; it's the position they've put themselves in.

 

Also admitting they need to draft better is an understanding they'll need all the help they can get with draft position. More slot money and better talent available. Losing is a must

 

 

[ptatc]

I agree with this, and thus was OK losing out on guys like Heyward and Cespedes, etc. last winter. But passing on Fowler and Desmond was 100% unacceptable -- not in retrospect since they've been good -- but at the time. Super cheap relative to the market and super short term.

The issue with those two was the draft pick loss. Would you rather have them or the additional draft pick to help the rebuilding?

 

Not saying you're wrong but they obviously didn't want to lose the high draft pick.

[ptatc]

Filling in the gaps with players THEY think are at market value has them dumpster diving. I think we all should agree that this is in part why they're at their current position.

 

White Sox need accountability with their prospects and expectations need to be met. Look at their current system, it's embarrassing. For a team needing to rely on a draft so heavily we should expect successful drafts. No excuses, no "bad luck with player x being injured," nothing; it's the position they've put themselves in.

 

Also admitting they need to draft better is an understanding they'll need all the help they can get with draft position. More slot money and better talent available. Losing is a must

I disagree that this is why they are in this position. I think they are in the position because of poor drafting/development.

 

Overspending at anytime (unless they are truly 1 player away) is just the wrong way to maintain a competitive team over an extended period of time.

[Buehrlesque]

The issue with those two was the draft pick loss. Would you rather have them or the additional draft pick to help the rebuilding?

 

Not saying you're wrong but they obviously didn't want to lose the high draft pick.

I never understood this line of thinking. First off, it overvalues one comp pick, and is inconsistent with the other go-for-it moves. But in any case, signing players to one-year deals, which both Desmond and Fowler settled for, means you can just extend the QO next year and get the pick right back. If you believed these players were going to be good, which the Sox obviously did since they pursued them, it's a simple case of deferring the draft pick one year. How could that possibly have been more important? And you still have #10 and #49. I can see the argument that the risk is too great if you're giving up your only first rounder. But the Sox were perfectly set up to take advantage of the market, and unequivocally failed.

[ptatc]

I never understood this line of thinking. First off, it overvalues one comp pick, and is inconsistent with the other go-for-it moves. But in any case, signing players to one-year deals, which both Desmond and Fowler settled for, means you can just extend the QO next year and get the pick right back. If you believed these players were going to be good, which the Sox obviously did since they pursued them, it's a simple case of deferring the draft pick one year. How could that possibly have been more important? And you still have #10 and #49. I can see the argument that the risk is too great if you're giving up your only first rounder. But the Sox were perfectly set up to take advantage of the market, and unequivocally failed.

Agreed. I think they just looked at the value. Was the player worth the contract plus the draft pick? They obviously, decided no.

[GreenSox]

I never understood this line of thinking. First off, it overvalues one comp pick, and is inconsistent with the other go-for-it moves. But in any case, signing players to one-year deals, which both Desmond and Fowler settled for, means you can just extend the QO next year and get the pick right back. If you believed these players were going to be good, which the Sox obviously did since they pursued them, it's a simple case of deferring the draft pick one year. How could that possibly have been more important? And you still have #10 and #49. I can see the argument that the risk is too great if you're giving up your only first rounder. But the Sox were perfectly set up to take advantage of the market, and unequivocally failed.

Deferral makes sense in win-now mode anyway. As it is, Sox used the comp pick primarily to help the current roster (although it didn't work out that way).

Sox front office has no finesse...they don't understand value or markets.

[Lip Man 1]

Again the side effect of not spending money. Jerry wants to compete at a level hes comfortable at. They dont give out large contracts but yet again dont have a farm system to aquire the holes that need to be filled. Again you dont hear crap coming from jerry on the whole subject. Definitely dont hear much from kenny.

 

Exactly. Jerry wants to win, I have no doubt on that score at all. The caveat is though he wants to win "his way," under "his conditions." How's that worked out for 36 years basically?

 

He's a brilliant business guy and real estate man, no question. That doesn't mean his way is smarter or better than the rest of baseball's and the record shows it hasn't worked very well.

 

Mark

[Thad Bosley]

Exactly. Jerry wants to win, I have no doubt on that score at all. The caveat is though he wants to win "his way," under "his conditions." How's that worked out for 36 years basically?

 

He's a brilliant business guy and real estate man, no question. That doesn't mean his way is smarter or better than the rest of baseball's and the record shows it hasn't worked very well.

 

Mark

Can you name me one owner who doesn't?

[ptatc]

Exactly. Jerry wants to win, I have no doubt on that score at all. The caveat is though he wants to win "his way," under "his conditions." How's that worked out for 36 years basically?

 

He's a brilliant business guy and real estate man, no question. That doesn't mean his way is smarter or better than the rest of baseball's and the record shows it hasn't worked very well.

 

Mark

Basically, better than the 30 years prior to his group buying the team.

[Hatchetman]

Basically, better than the 30 years prior to his group buying the team.

 

LOL. what a sad organization this has been. Sox fans should be declared saints by the Vatican. Even the non-Catholics.

[captain54]

Basically, better than the 30 years prior to his group buying the team.

 

Basically BS. Look up the Sox record from 1951-1981. 16 straight winning seasons from 1951-67. Winning seasons in 72 and 77.

 

On the way to 4 straight losing seasons with 2016. 2 of those stretches during the JR regime. Prior to that 68-77, 4 straight losing. You have to go back then to the end of WW II to find another bad stretch

Edited August 7, 2016 by captain54

[Flash Tizzle]

I disagree that this is why they are in this position. I think they are in the position because of poor drafting/development.

 

Overspending at anytime (unless they are truly 1 player away) is just the wrong way to maintain a competitive team over an extended period of time.

Poor drafting/development is #1 and Terrible FA signings are 1a. I agree it's not necessary to overspend on talent, but it's not just excusable anymore to chalk up our failures with FA signings as bad luck or being snake bitten. We're consistently selecting the wrong person year after year when comparable players for similar salaries are achieving success. This just compounds our failures with issue #1

[captain54]

LOL. what a sad organization this has been. Sox fans should be declared saints by the Vatican. Even the non-Catholics.

.

 

What's sad is fans being mocked and ridiculed for being skeptical and questioning why, as a big market franchise, things are where they are

 

[Flash Tizzle]

Basically, better than the 30 years prior to his group buying the team.

So does this excuse the state we're in?

 

Just look at everything now. The entire organization top to bottom is viewed publically as dynsfunctional, decrepit, and unable or unwilling to change.

 

I'll be willing to bet when the time comes and a new owner takes over, immediate changes will take place for the White Sox and within 5 years everyone will know (whether it was publically stated by then) that our current regime in 2016 severly impacted the future of the ballclub because JR just didn't want a rebuild

[Flash Tizzle]

.

 

What's sad is fans being mocked and ridiculed for being skeptical and questioning why, as a big market franchise, things are where they are

I won't name names, but this is also a problem with certain posters who throw out remarks like "if you don't like the team why are you or a fan" or just "stop watching" when those of us are critical of the entire organization.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Basically, better than the 30 years prior to his group buying the team.

 

 

Basically BS. Look up the Sox record from 1951-1981. 16 straight winning seasons from 1951-67. Winning seasons in 72 and 77.

On the way to 4 straight losing seasons with 2016. 2 of those stretches during the JR regime. Prior to that 68-77, 4 straight losing. You have to go back then to the end of WW II to find another bad stretch

Thank you.

[Soxfest]

I won't name names, but this is also a problem with certain posters who throw out remarks like "if you don't like the team why are you or a fan" or just "stop watching" when those of us are critical of the entire organization.

Yep you are supposed to bow at the JR shrine , no matter how far his loyalty to ex players runs the team into the ground and like it. Hell with that, I was a Sox fan before he owned the team and will be long after he is gone.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Soxfest

[ptatc]

Poor drafting/development is #1 and Terrible FA signings are 1a. I agree it's not necessary to overspend on talent, but it's not just excusable anymore to chalk up our failures with FA signings as bad luck or being snake bitten. We're consistently selecting the wrong person year after year when comparable players for similar salaries are achieving success. This just compounds our failures with issue #1

It does but I don't think it's the primary reason. The primary failure is the drafting/developing of players. that leads to all of the others.