Rick Hahn on Inside the Clubhouse

[Thad Bosley]

That figure is wrong.

 

The Sox won 90+ games under JR six times: 1983, 1990, 1993, 2000, 2005, 2006.

 

Mark

Correct. Fixed.

[he gone.]

This may not be exactly 100% on topic of the thread, but I keep reading about rebuilds across this board.

 

Just one thing to point out - not all rebuilds go as planned. Not every rebuild turns into the Cubs. Look at the Pirates - they were rebuilding for over a decade and always in the cellar. Prospects don't all turn into something like Schwarber and Rizzo and Bryant, etc.

 

Also not all GM's and Teams have the ability to spend money on add'l pieces like a Lester or Heyward when their young talent is hitting the majors. In fact, not many teams have the allure of playing at Wrigley.

 

Just saying. We are in like year 8 of a playoff drought. Even with a tear down, IF all things went 100% great we wouldn't be back in the playoff picture for probably 3-5 years....

[chisoxt]

Not me.

 

I'd almost sell my soul to have a run like they had from 51-67. Knowing they were going to win more then they lost at the end of the year, knowing they had a reasonable chance to make the expanded playoffs more then once every seven years and knowing that fans and the media actually cared.

 

You can't win the World Series if you don't get to the playoffs first.

 

That's the initial step...after that it's a crapshoot, especially in a short series.

 

Mark

Yep...This current product is so unwatchable, I'm not sure why the hesitation on the part of ownership. Its almost as though they have little to se. My theory is that Hahn/Williams have whiffed so badly on these prospects for short term rental deals recently that they do not trust that they can make very effective deals given their apparent advanced scouting limitations.

Edited August 8, 2016 by chisoxt

[Whisox05]

This may not be exactly 100% on topic of the thread, but I keep reading about rebuilds across this board.

 

Just one thing to point out - not all rebuilds go as planned. Not every rebuild turns into the Cubs. Look at the Pirates - they were rebuilding for over a decade and always in the cellar. Prospects don't all turn into something like Schwarber and Rizzo and Bryant, etc.

 

Also not all GM's and Teams have the ability to spend money on add'l pieces like a Lester or Heyward when their young talent is hitting the majors. In fact, not many teams have the allure of playing at Wrigley.

 

Just saying. We are in like year 8 of a playoff drought. Even with a tear down, IF all things went 100% great we wouldn't be back in the playoff picture for probably 3-5 years....

 

Yes but patching a team together isnt working. Sox are just another year closer to losing some players. They dont have the minors to replace them and dont have the budget to get free agents of quality. The cubs had a pretty much start from scratch. They didnt have the amount of major league talent like the sox do when they started to rebuild. They had to do international signings along with quality drafts to get where they are today. Plus most of their pitching was acquired be trades or free agency. Sox on the other hand have major league quality talent that if the traded for a rebuild they should be getting just close to major league talent back and in quantity in case of sale/Quintana being moved. In theory the sox should be able to bounce back hopefully quicker if they tore it down as long as the prospects work out

[southsider2k5]

This may not be exactly 100% on topic of the thread, but I keep reading about rebuilds across this board.

 

Just one thing to point out - not all rebuilds go as planned. Not every rebuild turns into the Cubs. Look at the Pirates - they were rebuilding for over a decade and always in the cellar. Prospects don't all turn into something like Schwarber and Rizzo and Bryant, etc.

 

Also not all GM's and Teams have the ability to spend money on add'l pieces like a Lester or Heyward when their young talent is hitting the majors. In fact, not many teams have the allure of playing at Wrigley.

 

Just saying. We are in like year 8 of a playoff drought. Even with a tear down, IF all things went 100% great we wouldn't be back in the playoff picture for probably 3-5 years....

 

Another good place to look is in our own division at the Twins. They went into rebuilding mode, and are now seemingly starting over again.

[Baron]

Another good place to look is in our own division at the Twins. They went into rebuilding mode, and are now seemingly starting over again.

 

That's what happens when you have an incompetent GM

[Dick Allen]

That's what happens when you have an incompetent GM

Didn't their minor league system get a real high ranking from many of the "experts"?

[Baron]

Didn't their minor league system get a real high ranking from many of the "experts"?

 

 

For a while yeah. But you cant only have that and fail everywhere else. Once they are ready you have to supplement their arrival with signings.

[GhostofDickeyKerr]

Basically, better than the 30 years prior to his group buying the team.

 

Unbelievable.

[GhostofDickeyKerr]

0 World Series.

 

Inconceivable.

 

Incomprehensible.

[GhostofDickeyKerr]

Didn't their minor league system get a real high ranking from many of the "experts"?

 

No. Not since the Himes days. Next question.

[southsider2k5]

Didn't their minor league system get a real high ranking from many of the "experts"?

 

They had a lot of highly touted players.

[GhostofDickeyKerr]

They had a lot of highly touted players.

 

Like whom?

[Harry Chappas]

No. Not since the Himes days. Next question.

 

Wrong team, the point was the Twins rebuild is not going too well especially with the guy that seems to have been the number one rated prospect for the last four years.

 

When Williams took over as GM the White Sox farm system was really deep

[shipps]

Inconceivable.

 

Incomprehensible.

 

Who are you?

[shipps]

Like whom?

 

And who sent you?

[HeGone7]

This may not be exactly 100% on topic of the thread, but I keep reading about rebuilds across this board.

 

Just one thing to point out - not all rebuilds go as planned. Not every rebuild turns into the Cubs. Look at the Pirates - they were rebuilding for over a decade and always in the cellar. Prospects don't all turn into something like Schwarber and Rizzo and Bryant, etc.

 

Also not all GM's and Teams have the ability to spend money on add'l pieces like a Lester or Heyward when their young talent is hitting the majors. In fact, not many teams have the allure of playing at Wrigley.

 

Just saying. We are in like year 8 of a playoff drought. Even with a tear down, IF all things went 100% great we wouldn't be back in the playoff picture for probably 3-5 years....

 

I think you bring up a good point, in that, people still truly don't understand how this potential rebuild is different from some of those teams you've mentioned.

 

I'll start out first by saying, you're 100% correct that there is no guarantee a rebuild goes as planned. Sadly, neither have the Sox plans on contending. So let's stop comparing those two as if the alternative has worked out. It hasn't and we don't know how a rebuild will go until we do it.

 

On one side of this argument, you have proven talent on this club. You have some "star attractions" and that means something to fans. Trading them away, leaves you without a face of the organization potentially and your return may never pan out. That is 100% the reality. So it's not unreasonable for people who don't want to rebuild to fear the "worst case scenario" where we lose people and our front office gets garbage in return. Which they have done more times than not. Keeping those guys has negatives as well. As an example, some of these guys are short on their contracts. So they can leave and we may get nothing/draft picks. I see no way this owner pays what Sale and Q will command on an open market (in 3 years no less). They've avoided it forever, and when they finally bit the bullet and went 4 years on a pitcher. It was John Danks. That did not go well. Take that strategy this office has, mix it with questions on Sale's arm and that he is likely to be paid a fortune - I see no way we're touching that. Just my opinion.

 

On the flip side, and this is what I want to hammer home, the Sox rebuilding potential is unlike anything we've really seen before. They're a large market team and a middle of the road payroll. And they have some serious controlled assets.

 

You mentioned 3-5 years away, which is not unrealistic, but it is slightly unfair. You're comparing that model to teams who had to start from scratch. The point of what the Sox would be doing is to get several MLB ready pieces. Dealing for a bunch of 18 year olds, or building through 3 years of top 5 picks isn't what the Sox opportunity is. Think of it as the Cubs and Pirates had to draft a lot of guys to get to where they are. But the Cubs acquired their First Baseman, who was MLB ready, via trade. The "Rizzo" types are what the Sox can be seeking. Now the Cubs brought Rizzo up and he had to wait for the others. The Sox should be able to net several of them, or basically bring as many up as the Cubs have the last year+ (Bryant, Baez, Schwarber, Contreras, etc).

 

So I get people hear "rebuild" and they think it's a long process. In this case, we're fortunate enough to have assets on the big league club that other teams are willing to pay a premium for. We're bypassing, in theory, a few years of this rebuild.

 

A couple things can mess this up:

 

(1) Not having the value we think exists for guys like Abreu (thank god he is starting to play better), Frazier, Eaton, Q, etc. Those guys should be able to net us (1) Elite top 50 type guy each. I think that is conservative for Q and Eaton, potentially on the other 2 as well. Robertson and Melky, I thought would have value but I think the deadline showed us otherwise. So I have little hope for anything "mlb ready" from them. Sale should get us 2-3 minimum IMO.

 

(2) The front office messing this up. This can happen a variety of ways. Bad scouting being one. More important than that is simply the decision making. If the best package you're offered for a Sale, let's say is the Yankees. And their centerpiece of the deal is a guy like Torres. Well, regardless of how talented he may be, he is years away. So in that instance, you'd be correct and we would be slowing our timeline. From everything I've seen/heard, the Sox have been asking for a major premium of MLB ready or existing mlb players.

 

The other piece I feel that is continuously overlooked is the Sox can spend money. This isn't the Marlins organization, or the Rays, or Oakland. If you had any brains as an ownership group/front office, all that payroll you'd be shedding in potential trades - that money needs to go elsewhere. That is how you prove you're serious about contending, or making it even more simple, signing players at positions where you haven't restocked, it will help your team. That means you sign a middle of the road OF, like Austin Jackson, instead of running JB Schuck - who has no real potential - out there. The guys you're acquiring are likely under control for a while, meaning they're inexpensive. There are plenty of guys out there you can sign to still improve your team. In fact, you can be more competitive with what you offer on a contract because of the inexpensive cost all over the field with your youth movement. As you see what pieces have panned out, you can add/subtract from there. If you acquire (2) first baseman and still have Abreu or a DH - that guy can be moved. Much like the Cubs did with a Vogelbach (I think that's his name). You can still move guys to get pieces/stars you may need. I understand this is all "in theory" but that is what we're working with. This needs to be their plan if they want to rebuild quickly and be more competitive.

 

If you really want to go overboard and if the Sox really had brains, you create a revolving door for acquiring prospects during this "rebuild." You take your 1-2 year fliers on relievers, or starters...guys like Rich Hill, etc. Players who either need to boom or bust for their next contract, or guys who teams have longevity concerns about and are forced to take shorter deals (but their talent is still of value to acquire at a deadline). Maybe this is too in-depth for right now, but the point is, the Sox have options.

 

Long story short, "rebuilding" may take 3-5 years like you're saying. However, the opportunity the Sox are presented with is to not only flip their roster and fill it with young talent we haven't seen this organization pump out before, but it's also how quickly that team can be ready to compete. "Opportunity" really is the best word for this and I use it a lot. It isn't a guarantee anything pans out, and we don't know what value we truly have, but point is - this isn't like what you're used to seeing with rebuilds because we're selling off assets that should jump us into year 3 of a typical rebuild. The irony here for those who want to compete with our current group is by not selling and continuing to not win (or lose enough to get a valuable pick), we may be in a scary place in a few years with what you're speculating in a rebuild. Minimal assets to sell, less coming back in return for those assets, and a long rebuild from there. This is why I'm heavily in the camp of selling.

Edited August 8, 2016 by HeGone7

[southsider2k5]

Like whom?

 

Apparently ghosts don't have google.

 

It was just 3 years ago that they had 2 of the 10 highest rated prospects in all of baseball, and 6 of the top 72. 2014 they had the #1 and #6 rated prospects, and 4 of the top 52.

[Dunt]

Another good place to look is in our own division at the Twins. They went into rebuilding mode, and are now seemingly starting over again.

 

They are? Seems like the prospects are just starting to arrive to me...Ya, Buxton has busted out so far and his health has been lousy, but are you really going to say that Sano and Kepler have been bad so far? In a little over a seasons worth of ABs, Miguel Sano has 36 HRs, a .245 ISO, an .867 OPS, and a 135 wRC+. Kepler, who is just seeing his first full-time action this season, has 15 HRs w/ a .277 ISO, .878 OPS, and 130 wRC+ in 258 ABs. Jose Berrios is going to be 22 at the start of next season and looks the part of an absolute stud. Adalberto Mejia looks like he will open next season in the rotation too barring any setbacks and he's having an excellent year in the minors. If anything, I'd say the future is starting to come together for the Twins. Let's not forget that they won 6 of 10 division titles in the 2000's, they were due for a rough stretch.

[southsider2k5]

They are? Seems like the prospects are just starting to arrive to me...Ya, Buxton has busted out so far and his health has been lousy, but are you really going to say that Sano and Kepler have been bad so far? In a little over a seasons worth of ABs, Miguel Sano has 36 HRs, a .245 ISO, an .867 OPS, and a 135 wRC+. Kepler, who is just seeing his first full-time action this season, has 15 HRs w/ a .277 ISO, .878 OPS, and 130 wRC+ in 258 ABs. Jose Berrios is going to be 22 at the start of next season and looks the part of an absolute stud. Adalberto Mejia looks like he will open next season in the rotation too barring any setbacks and he's having an excellent year in the minors. If anything, I'd say the future is starting to come together for the Twins. Let's not forget that they won 6 of 10 division titles in the 2000's, they were due for a rough stretch.

 

Their ownership sure doesn't agree with that if they are firing the GM and trading away players at the deadline.

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

Apparently ghosts don't have google.

Boogle

[Dunt]

Their ownership sure doesn't agree with that if they are firing the GM and trading away players at the deadline.

 

They got rid of Terry Ryan because of his inability to supplement the talent of his farm system with adequate major league talent, don't change the goal posts. You implied they need to rebuild again because of the failings of the farm system which is just incorrect.

[southsider2k5]

They got rid of Terry Ryan because of his inability to supplement the talent of his farm system with adequate major league talent, don't change the goal posts. You implied they need to rebuild again because of the failings of the farm system which is just incorrect.

 

They are rebuilding again.

[GhostofDickeyKerr]

White Sox Organizational Prospect Rankings (per Baseball America):

 

2011: 27

2012: 30

2013: 29

2014: 22

2015: 20

2016: 23

 

So when exactly did the Sox have this great farm system? GMAFB.

[daggins]

They are rebuilding again.

 

I wouldn't say they are rebuilding again - they were probably unfortunate that they won so many games last year. It convinced a bunch of people (Ryan among them) that they were ready to compete before they really were. They signed a bunch of middling pitchers, who fell apart, but their positional guys are starting to percolate. Sano, Kepler, Polanco are a nice core. They just need Berrios and some of their other pitching prospects to pan out.