Zack Burdi not coming to Chicago this season

[Hatchetman]

You'd be crazy not to question every single move this org makes. I don't know what the Apologentsia's motivations are. Relatives/friends that work for the team maybe. I dunno.

[southsider2k5]

You'd be crazy not to question every single move this org makes. I don't know what the Apologentsia's motivations are. Relatives/friends that work for the team maybe. I dunno.

 

Because only negative opinions are valid, and they can't be questioned, otherwise people have a meltdown about being entitled to have that opinion.

[Hatchetman]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

[Dick Allen]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

But if it not the same as yours, they are crazy.

[Kyyle23]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

 

correct, so lets not label opposite opinions of yours "apologentsias"

 

 

 

Look how far back you had to go though. Santiago arrived in 2012. Reed arrived in 2012. If those guys were still here they'd have 1 year before free agency. If they were still here, Cleveland would still have a better rotation than us. And when they traded those guys away, they had nothing in the pipeline that was able to replace them, so they went out and spent money on the Robertsons, Latoses, and Shieldses. That is a problem.

 

The pitching development isn't terrible, as you point out it's better than position player development, but it's not so incredible that everyone should stop questioning what they're doing with these guys. 5 years ago you could make that case, but 5 years in MLB is a long time.

 

you just started off by saying "Go back 5 years". This is within that period. They need to develop more, no doubt, but it was within your criteria and you are wiping it aside because "cleveland would still be better", instead of your initial point of "they are developing pitchers anymore"

[Hatchetman]

That is my opinion. You have a screw loose if you don't question this org's decision making process.

 

The weight of evidence is much more substantial on the "inept" side of the scale rather than the "brilliant" side.

[southsider2k5]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

 

Opinionentsia's

[lasttriptotulsa]

That is my opinion. You have a screw loose if you don't question this org's decision making process.

 

The weight of evidence is much more substantial on the "inept" side of the scale rather than the "brilliant" side.

 

Much like your posts.

[Hatchetman]

I'm totally part of the Opinionentsia. I embrace the term.

 

Discussion boards are for, you know, discussion.....and debate. Throw out an opinion or theory and let people pick it apart. If its strong enough it will stand up to the criticism.

[caulfield12]

It's time to start going after the bolded, because I think there's now a strong case that this organization is resting on reputation alone in terms of developing pitchers.

 

Go back 5 years, and they developed 2 very good starting pitchers. They deserve all the credit for that in the world, those 2 guys are strong, but they're literally carrying this staff. They haven't developed a successful, mid to top of the rotation starter in 5 years. Had it not been for the contract Chris Sale signed he would be a free agent at the end of this year. They have a solid rotation because of one of a handful of positive things Rick Hahn did for this franchise - locking those 2 starters up early.

 

Overall though the picture at the big league level is bleak. The Sox have a slightly better team ERA than Detroit, but Detroit has a slightly higher team fWAR from their staff. Cleveland has a significantly better team ERA than the White Sox. The White Sox's supposed plan was to develop enough pitching to have that carry them, right? Well 3rd best staff in the division doesn't get you there.

 

And that's not without throwing substantial resources at the staff. They signed a big money closer. They took on payroll in adding a pitcher this year. And they have invested 2 top-10 picks in their rotation the last 3 years.

 

Look deeper and you'll get even more concerned. They clearly had no idea where Rodon or Fulmer were going to be this year and overestimated how ready both of them were. They could still turn things around, both are young, but so far these guys are mediocre starters with good fastballs that the White Sox haven't developed as fast as they insisted they could. They made decisions this year expecting both would be strong contributors and they were clearly wrong. Someone in this organization that is supposed to know pitching told Rick Hahn that James Shields was fixable or had something left. They spent big money on Robertson and he's underwhelmed.

 

They also have little to no depth in their starters. Take a look at the guy going last night. There isn't much in the pipeline right now that can step in when someone goes on the DL or someone struggles, other than a replacement-level/waiver wire acquisition. There is no one about ready to break in from AAA.

 

What else have they developed over the past 5 years? Maybe you give them credit for guys they traded away, Santiago Bassitt and Montas, but those guys have had a lot of work done by other organizations too. If pitching is supposed to be the thing they're trading away to build up the rest of their roster, they have a pretty weak roster and they still have pitching needs.

 

This could turn around next year. There's talent in Rodon and Fulmer, James Shields could find his previous self, and Hansen could darn well be the next Scherzer. The investment they've put into finding pitching could pay off. But as of right now, this is a team that hasn't developed a mid-rotation starter or back of the bullpen pitcher in 5 years. This is a team where we're not supposed to question their pitching development, but they have major needs of starting pitching and relief pitching. They're separated from having the worst rotation in their division not by what they've developed, but by contracts that guys signed. They're resting on reputation right now.

 

Don't forget Guerra, Devenski, Harrell...Montas is one of the few legit success stories, then you really have to go back to Hudson and relievers like Reed and Santos prior to that.

 

Let's wait to see how long Nate Jones holds up as closer. Months, rather than years...is the likely outcome, not that it will matter much for a mediocre team anyway.

Edited August 18, 2016 by caulfield12

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

I don't know if I missed it or not, but is there a logical reason to call Burdi up this season?

 

He was just drafted this year...but more importantly, the Sox aren't in playoff contention anyway. Why start up his service time now on a mediocre team when he could still be developing in the minor leagues?

 

I just don't get it. They were arguably still in the hunt when they called up Fulmer, so that is at least a little more understandable., but this is ridiculous.

[Dick Allen]

Don't forget Guerra, Devenski, Harrell...Montas is one of the few legit success stories, then you really have to go back to Hudson and relievers like Reed and Santos prior to that.

But you have told us many times Hector Santiago's floor was a #3 starter.

[Balta1701]

you just started off by saying "Go back 5 years". This is within that period. They need to develop more, no doubt, but it was within your criteria and you are wiping it aside because "cleveland would still be better", instead of your initial point of "they are developing pitchers anymore"

So in 1.5 months it'll be 5 full seasons since those guys arrived. If you want to be picky about 1 month, they were both called up in late 2011.

 

Like you said, they need to develop more. Their pitching development should not be treated as above reproach. Despite throwing lots of resources at pitching acquisitions, their big league staff is held together by Quintana and Sale's extensions. This is part of the problem.

[lasttriptotulsa]

I don't know if I missed it or not, but is there a logical reason to call Burdi up this season?

 

He was just drafted this year...but more importantly, the Sox aren't in playoff contention anyway. Why start up his service time now on a mediocre team when he could still be developing in the minor leagues?

 

I just don't get it. They were arguably still in the hunt when they called up Fulmer, so that is at least a little more understandable., but this is ridiculous.

 

Minor league season is over the first week of September. If the Sox plan on him being in the Majors next year, which I'm guessing they do, him coming up for a month or so this year does absolutely nothing to effect his future arbitration and free agent status.

[Balta1701]

Minor league season is over the first week of September. If the Sox plan on him being in the Majors next year, which I'm guessing they do, him coming up for a month or so this year does absolutely nothing to effect his future arbitration and free agent status.

Could actually depend on the CBA negotiations right? As of right now if they kept him down for a little while next year that buys them another year before he's a free agent.

[caulfield12]

But you have told us many times Hector Santiago's floor was a #3 starter.

 

And you said Danny Duffy wasn't very good at all and Ubaldo Jimenez was the prize of the free agent class a couple of years ago.

 

Then you'll come back with something about Puig, and around and around it will go.

 

Have at it.

 

 

Whenever you make those comments, these pitchers invariably throw multiple shutouts against the Sox. Besides, going by your philosophy, pitching to a 10-7 record on two of the worst teams in the American League, he'd be 13-5 with the White Sox and contending for a Cy Young. He's a valuable and MUCH cheaper version of our innings eater, James Shields.

 

At any rate, compare his 10-7 with Rodon's record. Isn't he our #3?

[Dick Allen]

And you said Danny Duffy wasn't very good at all and Ubaldo Jimenez was the prize of the free agent class a couple of years ago.

 

Then you'll come back with something about Puig, and around and around it will go.

 

Have at it.

 

 

Whenever you make those comments, these pitchers invariably throw multiple shutouts against the Sox. Besides, going by your philosophy, pitching to a 10-7 record on two of the worst teams in the American League, he'd be 13-5 with the White Sox and contending for a Cy Young. He's a valuable and MUCH cheaper version of our innings eater, James Shields.

 

At any rate, compare his 10-7 with Rodon's record. Isn't he our #3?

It's just funny you don't mention Hector anymore with his 4.80 ERA and his well over 5.00 FIP, or Finnegan who is in the same boat, and even the Reds are thinking back to the bullpen..

Edited August 18, 2016 by Dick Allen

[lasttriptotulsa]

Could actually depend on the CBA negotiations right? As of right now if they kept him down for a little while next year that buys them another year before he's a free agent.

 

Currently 1 year of service time is 172 days so a player has to stay down about a week and a half. If things don't change in the CBA the Sox would just have to keep him down that week and a half plus how ever many days he spends up this year pushing his first arb year to 2021 and first FA year to 2024. I really think they are going to go the Sale route with Burdi though. In that case if he is up from the start of next year then a September call up doesn't effect anything.

[caulfield12]

It's just funny you don't mention Hector anymore with his 4.80 ERA and his well over 5.00 FIP, or Finnegan who is in the same boat, and even the Reds are thinking back to the bullpen..

 

If the White Sox traded away Santiago and the equivalent of Finnegan, let's say Fulmer...and actually got anywhere close to the playoffs, that would be great.

 

As long as one team or GM buys into the hype, you have a trade partner.

 

Besides, Cueto was about as good as Hector Santiago with the exception of two key post-season starts that rescued his legacy from terrible disappointment to....still not invited to the White House.

 

 

Not to mention the Cubs, Cardinals and Pirates all can hit a little bit.

[Dick Allen]

If the White Sox traded away Santiago and the equivalent of Finnegan, let's say Fulmer...and actually got anywhere close to the playoffs, that would be great.

 

As long as one team or GM buys into the hype, you have a trade partner.

 

Besides, Cueto was about as good as Hector Santiago with the exception of two key post-season starts that rescued his legacy from terrible disappointment to....still not invited to the White House.

 

 

Not to mention the Cubs, Cardinals and Pirates all can hit a little bit.

Sox traded Santiago, a guy you valued as a top of the rotation starter who turned out to not be a top of the rotation starter for Adam Eaton, a guy who might put up a 6.0 WAR this year.

 

Outstanding trade.

[Hatchetman]

Burdi's walking about 14-15% of the batters he faces in AA/AAA.

 

That is probably not sustainable at the major league level (only 5 of 223 MLB relievers have rates above 15%). Do you think that will improve due to better umpiring? Or maybe more balls in play? I dunno. It doesn't seem to me he's mastered his craft though. I guess he'll have to master it at the MLB level. His arm will likely be shot by the time he's a free agent, so it doesn't really matter if we capture his prime years.

[caulfield12]

Sox traded Santiago, a guy you valued as a top of the rotation starter who turned out to not be a top of the rotation starter for Adam Eaton, a guy who might put up a 6.0 WAR this year.

 

Outstanding trade.

 

Post of the Year.

 

Give Hahn and KW lifetime extensions. Between this year's draft and the Sale/Q contracts and 2005, thry're set for at least another 3-5 more years before you give up defending them. You've already started to tip in that direction this year in recent months (along with a number of mods), but just enjoy playing devil's advocate too much.

 

You're actually better off attacking Cooper and wondering where all the anti-Steverson outrage is...probably something to do with him being invisible AND not a former Sox player and not involved in the Guillen/KW/Coop circus/spy ring.

 

But...because you're anti-Balta too, you're now suddenly defending the Sox recent history of developing pitchers. Fun stuff.

Edited August 18, 2016 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Post of the Year.

 

Give Hahn and KW lifetime extensions. Between this year's draft and the Sale/Q contracts and 2005, thry're set for at least another 3-5 more years before you give up defending them. You've already started to tip in thst direction this year in recent months, but just enjoy playing devil's advocate too much.

 

You're better off attacking Cooper and wondering where all the anti-Steverson outrage is...probably something to do with him being invisible AND not a former Sox player and not involved in the Guillen/KW/Coop circus/spy ring.

Wow.

[Thomas_Ventura_Roberts]

I just read that Zach Birdi will be called up to the White Sox after making one more appearance.

[ScootsMcGoots]

I just read that Zach Birdi will be called up to the White Sox after making one more appearance.

Where did you read it...a link would be nice