GGajewski18 Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (Tony @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:41 PM) And is the franchise in much better shape now than it was then? What has Rick Hahn done to give him any sort of pass? Drafting, player development has gotten better under Hahn. In terms of actually having a plan, he can't execute his plan because KW and JR don't sign off on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (Tony @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:41 PM) And is the franchise in much better shape now than it was then? What has Rick Hahn done to give him any sort of pass? That's what I don't get. Why do people automatically think Hahn has all the answers? He was trained by KW and JR. He has been part of the decision making process for well over a decade. Saying if they would just listen to him everything would be OK is dreaming. If he flees, which I doubt, it will indicate there is some sort of problem or JR was going to jack him anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGajewski18 Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (Tony @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:42 PM) We don't know if ANY of this is true. The facts say there is a front office that works at 35th and Shields that has been able to create 1 playoff appearance for this franchise since 2005. At this point, I don't care what the rumors are. No one deserves a "Get out of jail" free card. I agree, but I just think that the problems with this franchise is JR and KW than Hahn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:44 PM) Drafting, player development has gotten better under Hahn. In terms of actually having a plan, he can't execute his plan because KW and JR don't sign off on it. If you are saying his hands are tied and his plan cannot be executed, how can you say he has anything to do with drafting better and better player development? Basically, if any what has been reported is true, Hahn's role really hasn't changed much since before the Sox won the WS. This is getting back to anything good has to be Hahn, anything bad is KW and JR. It just couldn't be accurate. Edited August 16, 2016 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:46 PM) I agree, but I just think that the problems with this franchise is JR and KW than Hahn. Hahn is paddling the same boat as the other 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:44 PM) Drafting, player development has gotten better under Hahn. In terms of actually having a plan, he can't execute his plan because KW and JR don't sign off on it. Worth stopping to think about - while the White Sox drafting looks slightly better over the last 5 years than the previous 5 years, the team has also been having higher draft picks and they've been saved from themselves by the new CBA that prevented them from giving the high ones up. Both of those would make their drafting look better with no changes. And in terms of development getting better - if that's the case, it has yet to make any noticeable impact on the big league team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGajewski18 Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:44 PM) That's what I don't get. Why do people automatically think Hahn has all the answers? He was trained by KW and JR. He has been part of the decision making process for well over a decade. Saying if they would just listen to him everything would be OK is dreaming. If he flees, which I doubt, it will indicate there is some sort of problem or JR was going to jack him anyway. Well respected around the league, and not really given a chance to put his stamp on the team. There are now 2 reports in 2 of the last 3 years where Hahn wanted to rebuild only to be shot down by JR and KW. The trades where Hahn has "sold" on, they were pretty damn good trades. Peavy netted Montas (who got Frazier), Wendelken (who got Lawrie), Avi, and Rondon. Santiago got Eaton. Jennings for Rienzo. Almonte for Beckham (then traded for Kahnle, still hate that trade). Duke for Tilson. Overall not bad when we sold high on players Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 Either Hahn has failed at getting players he wants or he has failed at getting the players KW wants. Either way, he has failed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGajewski18 Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:48 PM) If you are saying his hands are tied and his plan cannot be executed, how can you say he has anything to do with drafting better and better player development? Basically, if any what has been reported is true, Hahn's role really hasn't changed much since before the Sox won the WS. This is getting back to anything good has to be Hahn, anything bad is KW and JR. It just couldn't be accurate. Didn't he hire/promote Hostetler? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:52 PM) Well respected around the league, and not really given a chance to put his stamp on the team. There are now 2 reports in 2 of the last 3 years where Hahn wanted to rebuild only to be shot down by JR and KW. The trades where Hahn has "sold" on, they were pretty damn good trades. Peavy netted Montas (who got Frazier), Wendelken (who got Lawrie), Avi, and Rondon. Santiago got Eaton. Jennings for Rienzo. Almonte for Beckham (then traded for Kahnle, still hate that trade). Duke for Tilson. Overall not bad when we sold high on players But if he has no power, how can you give him the credit for those trades? They would have to be KW's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:52 PM) Well respected around the league, and not really given a chance to put his stamp on the team. There are now 2 reports in 2 of the last 3 years where Hahn wanted to rebuild only to be shot down by JR and KW. The trades where Hahn has "sold" on, they were pretty damn good trades. Peavy netted Montas (who got Frazier), Wendelken (who got Lawrie), Avi, and Rondon. Santiago got Eaton. Jennings for Rienzo. Almonte for Beckham (then traded for Kahnle, still hate that trade). Duke for Tilson. Overall not bad when we sold high on players Reed for Davidson? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGajewski18 Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 02:55 PM) Reed for Davidson? I think that ended up bad for all parties involved. But yes, a blunder when Hahn sold high on a player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 nobody knows which of the triumvirate was responsible for any particular move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 03:07 PM) nobody knows which of the triumvirate was responsible for any particular move. I hold them all responsible for each move good and bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 03:09 PM) I hold them all responsible for each move good and bad. I hold JR responsible since he's in charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 12:44 PM) That's what I don't get. Why do people automatically think Hahn has all the answers? He was trained by KW and JR. He has been part of the decision making process for well over a decade. Saying if they would just listen to him everything would be OK is dreaming. If he flees, which I doubt, it will indicate there is some sort of problem or JR was going to jack him anyway. I've said they all have failed. Don't care about what caused the failures, they have all failed. Only person who can decide otherwise are the people in the building who know more about what decisions were made and who got vetoed or didn't get vetoed in the process. Outside of KW and RH, Jerry is probably the only other guy who knows of everything that came up and potentially did / didn't happen and we don't even know if KW squashed things whether it was Kenny squashing it or JR going to KW and saying no, I'm not ready for it. Reality is the only thing any of us know is this team has failed pretty miserably the past 11 years (some exciting teams shortly after 2005, but the further removed the worse it has gotten), with bigger failures over the most recent 4-5 year stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 Bernstein basically saying Kaplan is bulls***ting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 I used to believe that Hahn was tactically strong but strategically weak in how he was unable to convince his superiors in a broader strategy (or he himself was unable to create a broader strategy). But then this year came up and tactically he was pretty terrible barring the draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 I believe Kaplan here, wholeheartedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (SoxPride18 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 01:52 PM) Well respected around the league, and not really given a chance to put his stamp on the team. There are now 2 reports in 2 of the last 3 years where Hahn wanted to rebuild only to be shot down by JR and KW. The trades where Hahn has "sold" on, they were pretty damn good trades. Peavy netted Montas (who got Frazier), Wendelken (who got Lawrie), Avi, and Rondon. Santiago got Eaton. Jennings for Rienzo. Almonte for Beckham (then traded for Kahnle, still hate that trade). Duke for Tilson. Overall not bad when we sold high on players Who overpaid Duke based on one flukey year in Milwaukee? Since when is Tilson anything but a 4th/5th outfielder? He missed badly on the Avi assessment, and having Frazier one more year doesn't help much unless they're all in...not to mention having Montas around might have lowered the desperation to foolishly add James Shields and get stuck with his contract. The only one from that list that was good is Eaton. And any positive from Eaton has been wiped out by all of the terrible to bad free agent deals over the last few years, along with the acquisition of James Shields. At best, you could argue that Melky and Robertson might get you a Tier C prospect back...and Frazier's value has slid a bit as well. Those are the three BEST moves! And then there's Abreu, who put up one great, one really good and one negative value season...and who shouldn't be out in the field another game, realistically. If they tried to sell all four of those players in the offseason, the return wouldn't come close to what the Yankees did in June and July with their veterans. Edited August 16, 2016 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Harold Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 (edited) More From WSD, FWIW whitesoxdave @barstoolWSD 3m3 minutes ago Chicago, IL Okay apparently Reinsdorf called Kap and said the front office is completely in sync and to judge them on this winter whitesoxdave @barstoolWSD 3m3 minutes ago Chicago, IL A. They have failed for a decade straight. They haven't earned the right to be positively judged in any facet whitesoxdave @barstoolWSD 2m2 minutes ago Chicago, IL B. Reinsdorf just put obscene pressure on Hahn and KW to build either a sure fire winner or sure fire loser with a great farm for 2017 I didn't hear the call, but the latter seems like his opinion to me. Edited August 16, 2016 by Sleepy Harold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hurtin Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 This just strengthens my opinion that Hahn is just the money man, i.e. working out the particulars in contracts. The big ideas are above his head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 QUOTE (Sleepy Harold @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 05:42 PM) More From WSD, FWIW I didn't hear the call, but the latter seems like his opinion to me. Well, they could have gotten the great farm for 2017 at the deadline, JR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted August 16, 2016 Share Posted August 16, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (Sleepy Harold @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 04:42 PM) More From WSD, FWIW I didn't hear the call, but the latter seems like his opinion to me. It would 2018 for the farm system. And why exactly would he trust Hahn and KW to make trades of Sale or Q, Eaton, Abreu, Frazier, Cabrera, Robertson and Jones at the trade deadline NEXT year if they fail yet again to put a contender together? Let's not forget, the Indians have been without their best player (probably second to Lindor now) all season, KC missing a combination of top 5-7 players (Moustakas, Davis, Cain, Gordon for half the season) at different points...and the Tigers with an extremely dangerous offense, much larger payroll, resurgent Verlander along with the discovery of Fulmer. Even Minnesota's offense has buried a number of good teams in recent months and they have more help coming from their superior farm system. Edited August 16, 2016 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 So JR called Kap on air to debunk what he was saying? If so, that is interesting. JR usually stays far out of this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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