Dave Kaplan reports Kenny Williams holding back Rick Hahn

[caulfield12]

Rick Hahn was very popular here when all those moves were made. When they failed, they became KW moves. In fact, the one poster who rips all these moves the most, and tells you what should have happened, went one farther. He loved all these moves so much, he said Hahn and KW would be kings of Chicago if they could then complete their offseason and land Matt Kemp.

 

Hahn does still enjoy back up QB status with many. But he does hold some responsibility for all these moves. If he has nothing to do with it but go to the media and explain the reasoning for making them, he should have done the honorable thing and quit his job.

 

Even Matt Kemp with money coming back the other way would have been a much better move for that theoretical offense than James Shields, as/when Danks and Latos were both putting up much better numbers in the rotation.

[Dick Allen]

Even Matt Kemp with money coming back the other way would have been a much better move for that theoretical offense than James Shields, as/when Danks and Latos were both putting up much better numbers in the rotation.

No. You would be calling for Hahn's law degree. But kings of Chicago. Hindsight is great. With a few hiccups like not understanding guys with stress fractures of their ribs can't help your bullpen, even you can figure out "what should have been done." Without it, you make these guys look like geniuses. If you use WAR to determine a players worth, your idea of Gerrardo Parra for $8 million wouldn't work out. WAR wise he would be the worst player on the White Sox. He would blow Avi away.

[Dick Allen]

But the Sox got nothing.

That's the big problem.

Whoever scouted Frazier and Samardzija as elite talents, and Shields as a capable mid rotation guy simply cannot evaluate talent and do not belong anywhere near a professional baseball team.

It's one thing to say prospects didn't work out - most don't - but when the "proven veterans" especially the ones that are worshiped as elite, are consistently average or below, there is a major problem.

Were these veterans even seriously scouted?

Did anyone actually look at their stats?

 

And secondarily, indeed, I don't believe that the Sox FO is particularly capable in negotiating trades. On paper, they usually overpay. When the Dodgers preferred the 3 Sox prospects to Frazier, that should have sent a clear signal to the Sox* (if they had any self-awareness) that he was on the wrong side of this transaction.

*Rabbitt is probably right Williams is making all of these inane moves, but, whoever is doing it, is just inept.

No. The have Frazier, Ynoa, and Burdi. And while Shields has been awful, he did have 6 good starts and another decent one. Erik Johnson has an ERA over 9.00 with SD and is done for the year. It just cost the Sox money really. Tatis if he makes it, is a long ways off.

 

If these are the worst trades the team ever makes, that is pretty good.

[southsider2k5]

An ERA well into the 4's is good in SF?

 

Cueto's been much better. Of course, many local/regional fans bought into this idea Shark's a Cy Young guy too, but the results have never measured up to the hype.

 

4.17

[soxforlife05]

I didn't hate the Frazier move at the time. I thought it was smart to sell high on Thompson with how much his minor league stats deviated from the small major league sample. They just picked the wrong player to trade for. They used to be better at getting good veterans in trades but lately there have been way more misses than hits.

[soxforlife05]

4.17

 

A 4+ ERA is subpar in the NL with all the teams that are tanking and how easy it is to get out of jams pitching around guys to get to the pitcher's spot.

[Dick Allen]

I didn't hate the Frazier move at the time. I thought it was smart to sell high on Thompson with how much his minor league stats deviated from the small major league sample. They just picked the wrong player to trade for. They used to be better at getting good veterans in trades but lately there have been way more misses than hits.

There is something salvageable with Frazier. I wouldn't trade him for a low return. Playing for a contract a year in to the AL and a new city, he should bounce back some next year, and his power is still huge.

[caulfield12]

No. You would be calling for Hahn's law degree. But kings of Chicago. Hindsight is great. With a few hiccups like not understanding guys with stress fractures of their ribs can't help your bullpen, even you can figure out "what should have been done." Without it, you make these guys look like geniuses. If you use WAR to determine a players worth, your idea of Gerrardo Parra for $8 million wouldn't work out. WAR wise he would be the worst player on the White Sox. He would blow Avi away.

 

I would still take any of those moves over James Shields.

Because the payroll impact wouldn't be carrying over into next season. And obviously we're the anti-Kings of Chicago now with people paid millions of dollars to get these things right. Even when they're consistently wrong, they still get to keep their jobs, mystifyingly.

 

And almost nobody bought that Ian Desmond would have any value as an outfielder coming into this season (bring up the thread where I have literally 100 posts saying we should pursue him, before this season)...I was wrong that the White Sox would still be able to sign him in June, but that's because you have a good GM and manager in Texas who actually know what they're doing and how to assess talent. They also don't have to get caught up in preserving supplemental draft picks when they have an already established minor league talent pipeline.

 

Hahn was too afraid Desmond wouldn't work out and there would be nothing left to show for the Shark deal.

 

Glad you don't work for the Sox...because you said over and over again how terrible Danny Duffy is but that we should sign Alex Gordon. Lovely.

 

I will give you credit for one thing. You finally manned up and admitted Semien has been decent instead of continuing to recite his error totals the first half of last season.

Edited August 23, 2016 by caulfield12

[soxforlife05]

There is something salvageable with Frazier. I wouldn't trade him for a low return. Playing for a contract a year in to the AL and a new city, he should bounce back some next year, and his power is still huge.

 

I agree I would definitely not trade him this offseason. If we are out of it by midyear he can likely be flipped for something good at the deadline. He was hitting .287 with 25 HR at the end of June 2015 so it's possible he can put together a big half season a net a top prospect if the rest of the team busts. But then again, if he rebounded like that we'd probably be at the top of the division. Trading Frazier this offseason would be making the Swisher mistake twice.

Edited August 23, 2016 by soxforlife05

[Dick Allen]

I would still take any of those moves over James Shields.

Because the payroll impact wouldn't be carrying over into next season. And obviously we're the anti-Kings of Chicago now with people paid millions of dollars to get these things right. Even when they're consistently wrong, they still get to keep their jobs, mystifyingly.

 

And almost nobody bought that Ian Desmond would have any value as an outfielder coming into this season (bring up the thread where I have literally 100 posts saying we should pursue him, before this season)...I was wrong that the White Sox would still be able to sign him in June, but that's because you have a good GM and manager in Texas who actually know what they're doing and how to assess talent. They also don't have to get caught up in preserving supplemental draft picks when they have an already established minor league talent pipeline.

 

Hahn was too afraid Desmond wouldn't work out and there would be nothing left to show for the Shark deal.

 

Glad you don't work for the Sox...because you said over and over again how terrible Danny Duffy is but that we should sign Alex Gordon. Lovely.

 

I will give you credit for one thing. You finally manned up and admitted Semien has been decent instead of continuing to recite his error totals the first half of last season.

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97876

 

Just read the first post in this thread you started, without hindsight of course. And read the entire thread. It has your offer of $10 million for Latos, $8 million for Parra and $10 million for Desmond in June. You were told several times Desmomd wouldn't be around in June, but you stuck with it. You say Hahn was scared, looks like you were too.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Lip Man 1]

But the Sox got nothing.

That's the big problem.

Whoever scouted Frazier and Samardzija as elite talents, and Shields as a capable mid rotation guy simply cannot evaluate talent and do not belong anywhere near a professional baseball team.

It's one thing to say prospects didn't work out - most don't - but when the "proven veterans" especially the ones that are worshiped as elite, are consistently average or below, there is a major problem.

Were these veterans even seriously scouted?

Did anyone actually look at their stats?

 

And secondarily, indeed, I don't believe that the Sox FO is particularly capable in negotiating trades. On paper, they usually overpay. When the Dodgers preferred the 3 Sox prospects to Frazier, that should have sent a clear signal to the Sox* (if they had any self-awareness) that he was on the wrong side of this transaction.

*Rabbitt is probably right Williams is making all of these inane moves, but, whoever is doing it, is just inept.

 

How much does having to work with this manager and coaching staff enter into the poor performances? Remember Cooper saying "I failed Shark..." Didn't pick up that he was tipping pitches...and the talk that Shark did not get along with him.

 

Mark

 

[Donaldo]

Of course, many local/regional fans bought into this idea Shark's a Cy Young guy too, but the results have never measured up to the hype.

 

WOW, Shark's career numbers: 57-70 4.10 ERA. That's pretty... meh.

 

He only had 3 really good seasons (and he was a reliever in 2 of those 3).

 

Just another overhyped Cub prospect (Corey Patterson, Felix Pie), and I bought into it.

[southsider2k5]

A 4+ ERA is subpar in the NL with all the teams that are tanking and how easy it is to get out of jams pitching around guys to get to the pitcher's spot.

 

Yet, his FIP and ERA+ say otherwise.

[southsider2k5]

But the Sox got nothing.

That's the big problem.

Whoever scouted Frazier and Samardzija as elite talents, and Shields as a capable mid rotation guy simply cannot evaluate talent and do not belong anywhere near a professional baseball team.

It's one thing to say prospects didn't work out - most don't - but when the "proven veterans" especially the ones that are worshiped as elite, are consistently average or below, there is a major problem.

Were these veterans even seriously scouted?

Did anyone actually look at their stats?

 

And secondarily, indeed, I don't believe that the Sox FO is particularly capable in negotiating trades. On paper, they usually overpay. When the Dodgers preferred the 3 Sox prospects to Frazier, that should have sent a clear signal to the Sox* (if they had any self-awareness) that he was on the wrong side of this transaction.

*Rabbitt is probably right Williams is making all of these inane moves, but, whoever is doing it, is just inept.

 

How much does having to work with this manager and coaching staff enter into the poor performances? Remember Cooper saying "I failed Shark..." Didn't pick up that he was tipping pitches...and the talk that Shark did not get along with him.

 

Mark

 

 

lol, wut? No it meant the Dodgers already had a 3B who was better than Frazier, and they saw the Sox package of prospects as better than their prospects.

 

That statement is also incredibly naive in that in any trade a team is saying that they prefer what you are giving them to what they are giving up. That is how trades are made. If a team stopped every time another team preferred the offer they were getting, they were quite literally never make a trade.

[caulfield12]

Yet, his FIP and ERA+ say otherwise.

 

So how have the White Sox missed on so many of their appraisals???

 

Dunn in 2011, it's fair to say he came fairly close to earning his money the rest of those years, especially 2012, but never got past 2011 nightmare

 

LaRoche

Bonifacio

Beckham

Cabrera earned his money this year, but was a major contributor to the terrible start in 2015

Robertson...well-documented

Duke

 

Basically all of the free agents this past offseason have been fair to middling. Navarro has been terrible, and Avila (predictably) hurt and not much better. Jackson hurt, and was in the mid 600's for OPS, so basically replacement level. Rollins and Latos (probably the best bargain in terms of money spent for wins gained). Morneau has been fine, but we won't get anything in return for him and he's actually blocking Coats or Garcia from playing, if they do actually plan to go into next season with one or both on the roster. Not to mention Jacob Turner.

 

The previous class, you have Abreu, and lots of MEH.

 

Other than picking up Jennings, Putnam and Gonzalez, it has been one disaster after another. To this day, I still don't understand why they keep trotting out Matt Albers to the mound. We played Alexei (who is even worse in 2016) down the stretch in 2015 instead of Saladino, and have been playing Navarro a lot when he's been one of the worst players in all of MLB.

 

Not to mention all those names like Kelly Downs and Paulino...you simply can't be 1/15 or 1/20 getting "surplus value" out of free agents and expect to be competitive when you have a bottom quartile farm system during that same time period.

[caulfield12]

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97876

 

Just read the first post in this thread you started, without hindsight of course. And read the entire thread. It has your offer of $10 million for Latos, $8 million for Parra and $10 million for Desmond in June. You were told several times Desmomd wouldn't be around in June, but you stuck with it. You say Hahn was scared, looks like you were too.

 

So I was off by $2 million on Desmond.

 

Wow. I overvalued him slightly, whereas there there less than five in that thread who wanted ANYTHING to do with him at all.

 

Did Latos' agent send me his medical records that you know of? Pretty hard to know exactly what you're getting without opening the hood and seeing exactly what's left of the engine in order to make a legitimate bid.

 

Parra signed three years for $27.5 million and an additional option for 2019, so I was close on that one as well.

 

 

 

So basically it's my fault when I was predicting what the White Sox would do...which was not offer Desmond because they weren't willing to give up that precious draft pick that you keep saying has a negligible value in terms of career WAR from the #26 spot.

 

You don't say anything about my assessment of him as an outfielder or all of the many pluses I mentioned consistently throughout. You're so consumed proving I was wrong on a technicality because he didn't make it to Jone, which actually proves my point is that he was a bargain that interested a number of well-run teams who can properly define "plus or added value."

 

And Matt Latos alone was still able to contribute a lot more meaningful wins to the Sox than someone who costs more than Parra/Austin Jackson, Latos and Ian Desmond combined in James Shields...brilliant.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

So I was off by $2 million on Desmond.

 

Wow. I overvalued him slightly, whereas there there less than five in that thread who wanted ANYTHING to do with him at all.

 

Did Latos' agent send me his medical records that you know of? Pretty hard to know exactly what you're getting without opening the hood and seeing exactly what's left of the engine in order to make a legitimate bid.

 

Parra signed three years for $27.5 million and an additional option for 2019, so I was close on that one as well.

 

 

 

So basically it's my fault when I was predicting what the White Sox would do...which was not offer Desmond because they weren't willing to give up that precious draft pick that you keep saying has a negligible value in terms of career WAR from the #26 spot.

 

You don't say anything about my assessment of him as an outfielder or all of the many pluses I mentioned consistently throughout. You're so consumed proving I was wrong on a technicality because he didn't make it to Jone, which actually proves my point is that he was a bargain that interested a number of well-run teams who can properly define "plus or added value."

 

And Matt Latos alone was still able to contribute a lot more meaningful wins to the Sox than someone who costs more than Parra/Austin Jackson, Latos and Ian Desmond combined in James Shields...brilliant.

No. It shows the way you wanted him wasn't availalable. When you were constantly told he won't make it to June you stayed the course. $10 million for Latos, $8 million for Parra and his -1.3 WAR. Of course you keep popping off about Finnegan and his -0.2 WAR, so you have a thing for below replacement players. At least Latos put up a 0.0 for the $10 million you would have given him. And no Shields didn't cost more than those guys combined. You are lying again Donald.

[caulfield12]

No. It shows the way you wanted him wasn't availalable. When you were constantly told he won't make it to June you stayed the course. $10 million for Latos, $8 million for Parra and his -1.3 WAR. Of course you keep popping off about Finnegan and his -0.2 WAR, so you have a thing for below replacement players. At least Latos put up a 0.0 for the $10 million you would have given him. And no Shields didn't cost more than those guys combined. You are lying again Donald.

 

So it's somehow my fault the White Sox spent four times as much on James Shields...and missed out on getting back another compensation pick in 2017?

 

They're not going to get anything back for Shields...hopefully you're taking that into consideration.

 

If you go through that thread, I probably spent 1-2% of it on Parra and Latos and 98% of the time talking about Desmond.

 

The way I wanted him was the only conceivable way the White Sox were going to get him...remember back then? They were only willing to give up to three years on Alex Gordon (which you wholeheartedly endorsed while I was tepid at best on that move, despite my appreciation for what he has previously accomplished), Cespedes and Upton, who wasn't even interested in the Sox. We can't be 100% sure or not whether they were willing to surrender the pick for Fowler, which would have been another positive move.

 

If you add my $10 million for Latos, $8 million for Parra and the money the Rangers paid Desmond (minus another $2 million saved on their bonus pool), that would be $24 million for those three vs. $27 million for the James Shields commitment...and they would have even gotten a draft pick back for Desmond in 2017.

 

Where does Carlos Rodon rank in WAR? Where does Mr. Duffy? Do you want to explain all your quotes throughout the years ripping him when they couldn't have been more off base had you thrown darts against a wall in order to determine which players to sign.

 

Actually, the White Sox would be better off just making one of those prize barrels from The Bozo Show and just picking three to five random free agent names every year and allocating whatever was the agreed upon money....like putting the same amount of money into a mutual fund the 15th of the month regardless of market conditions.

Edited August 24, 2016 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

So it's somehow my fault the White Sox spent four times as much on James Shields...and missed out on getting back another compensation pick in 2017?

 

They're not going to get anything back for Shields...hopefully you're taking that into consideration.

 

If you go through that thread, I probably spent 1-2% of it on Parra and Latos and 98% of the time talking about Desmond.

 

The way I wanted him was the only conceivable way the White Sox were going to get him...remember back then? They were only willing to give up to three years on Alex Gordon (which you wholeheartedly endorsed while I was tepid at best on that move, despite my appreciation for what he has previously accomplished), Cespedes and Upton, who wasn't even interested in the Sox. We can't be 100% sure or not whether they were willing to surrender the pick for Fowler, which would have been another positive move.

 

If you add my $10 million for Latos, $8 million for Parra and the money the Rangers paid Desmond (minus another $2 million saved on their bonus pool), that would be $24 million for those three vs. $27 million for the James Shields commitment...and they would have even gotten a draft pick back for Desmond in 2017.

 

Where does Carlos Rodon rank in WAR? Where does Mr. Duffy? Do you want to explain all your quotes throughout the years ripping him when they couldn't have been more off base had you thrown darts against a wall in order to determine which players to sign.

 

Actually, the White Sox would be better off just making one of those prize barrels from The Bozo Show and just picking three to five random free agent names every year and allocating whatever was the agreed upon money....like putting the same amount of money into a mutual fund the 15th of the month regardless of market conditions.

 

Whatever. It's just a good thing they don't listen to you. The funny thing is, you make it sound like you were the only person who wanted Desmond here, which is false. When I get time tonight, I will dig up MY post of signing him to replace Alexei a month or 2 before your June idea. It will be funny to see if you agreed with me. I tend to doubt it.

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Whatever. It's just a good thing they don't listen to you. The funny thing is, you make it sound like you were the only person who wanted Desmond here, which is false. When I get time tonight, I will dig up MY post of signing him to replace Alexei a month or 2 before your June idea. It will be funny to see if you agreed with me. I tend to doubt it.

 

Lol that's the best part of it. Him wanting the Sox to wait until after the draft and then acting like he wanted the Sox to sign him from the beginning.

[Dick Allen]

Lol that's the best part of it. Him wanting the Sox to wait until after the draft and then acting like he wanted the Sox to sign him from the beginning.

That's just it. There were plenty that wanted Desmond. In fact in the Desmond thread, Steve pointed out how many wanted Desmond. Caulfield acts like he was the only one. He was the only one who kept mentioning June. I'll give him that.

[Hatchetman]

Which draft pick would have Desmond cost us?

[Dick Allen]

Which draft pick would have Desmond cost us?

Burdi.

[southsider2k5]

Which draft pick would have Desmond cost us?

 

Say Bye, Bye, Burdi.

[Harry Chappas]

Say Bye, Bye, Burdi.

 

Or if Burdi was still there when Hansen was picked...possibly Hansen who is looking like a very nice get