New Ballpark Name

[Doc Edwards Shot]

They did win 90 2 years in a row including a World Series the next year, attendance dropped. They made the playoffs the next year, the attendance dropped, 3 years later, spent most of the season in first place, the attendance dropped. There is no rhyme or reason here. We can move the bar for what will make White Sox fans show up to games like Bears, Cubs, Bulls fans do no matter what the state of their team. It will be interesting to see what happens to the Blackhawks once their run ends and they are just a meddling mediocre team for a while. I would imagine they have built up enough good faith that attendance won't change much. But the White Sox are the only major professional sports team in Chicago who wouldn't draw big in first place. That's fine, but there are consequences. The thought of some billionaire coming in on his white horse to buy the team from JR and starting to spend crazily thus setting attendance records is fantasy. Sox fans won't go until they win 90 games 3 years in a row? It will probably be a long time until they win 90 games 3 years in a row.

 

You highlight a good point. Winning has some correlation to Sox fan attendance (as seen in 2006), but not always. I remember the attendance being surprisingly weak for a good portion of the historic 2005 season when they well ahead of the pack in first place from the get go.

 

And it wasn't particularly strong in 2012 when they were battling with Detroit for the division title in September. The fans inexplicably didn't turn out as much as could have been expected down the stretch when the team needed the support.

 

I admit it that as a Sox fan, I'm guilty of not showing up at the park for long stretches without realizing it. I guess I just love watching it on HD TV at home or at a neighborhood bar better than going down to the stadium.

[caulfield12]

If you (meaning most Sox fans pointing the finger at the fanbase) didn't have such a connection to the Cubs and the last 20-30 years of their history...the White Sox would seem like any perfectly normal franchise in a decade long downturn, with fans acting accordingly.

 

Outside of the Cubs and Cardinals, there just aren't any similar franchises whose fans support the team year after year, regardless of the results on the field. And even that started waning the first 2-3 years of the Epstein/Hoyer rebuild.

 

The only other one that comes close is Milwaukee...to a lesser extent. (This can be mostly explained away by a commissioner of baseball for two decades making decisions to advance the interests of his daughter's franchise, especially the new stadium.)

 

Instead of having anomalously bad fans, we are the normal condition that only seems or feels or is perceived to be an anomaly for the worse because of the Cubs and how the product on the field never mattered to their fans because so many were there at Wrigley just to get wasted in the bleachers around "hotties" or take part in their annual local Rotary or Kiwanis club shopping spree/Cubs Trip leaving from Des Moines on a charter bus.

Edited August 25, 2016 by caulfield12

[SCCWS]

If you (meaning most Sox fans pointing the finger at the fanbase) didn't have such a connection to the Cubs and the last 20-30 years of their history...the White Sox would seem like any perfectly normal franchise in a decade long downturn, with fans acting accordingly.

 

Outside of the Cubs and Cardinals, there just aren't any similar franchises whose fans support the team year after year, regardless of the results on the field. And even that started waning the first 2-3 years of the Epstein/Hoyer rebuild.

 

The only other one that comes close is Milwaukee...to a lesser extent. (This can be mostly explained away by a commissioner of baseball for two decades making decisions to advance the interests of his daughter's franchise, especially the new stadium.)

 

Instead of having anomalously bad fans, we are the normal condition that only seems or feels or is perceived to be an anomaly for the worse because of the Cubs and how the product on the field never mattered to their fans because so many were there at Wrigley just to get wasted in the bleachers around "hotties" or take part in their annual local Rotary or Kiwanis club shopping spree/Cubs Trip leaving from Des Moines on a charter bus.

 

Boston is pretty consistent between 35-37,000 each game as well. They had 2 terrible years.

 

[Dick Allen]

When the White Sox won the WS, they were 17th in attendance. In 2012 when they were in first place most of the season they were in 24th. Winning helps but not a lot.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Dick Allen

[The Mighty Mite]

They did win 90 2 years in a row including a World Series the next year, attendance dropped. They made the playoffs the next year, the attendance dropped, 3 years later, spent most of the season in first place, the attendance dropped. There is no rhyme or reason here. We can move the bar for what will make White Sox fans show up to games like Bears, Cubs, Bulls fans do no matter what the state of their team. It will be interesting to see what happens to the Blackhawks once their run ends and they are just a meddling mediocre team for a while. I would imagine they have built up enough good faith that attendance won't change much. But the White Sox are the only major professional sports team in Chicago who wouldn't draw big in first place. That's fine, but there are consequences. The thought of some billionaire coming in on his white horse to buy the team from JR and starting to spend crazily thus setting attendance records is fantasy. Sox fans won't go until they win 90 games 3 years in a row? It will probably be a long time until they win 90 games 3 years in a row.

 

I'm not sure what years you are talking about with the 2 years winning 90 game and dropping in attendance. In 2005 when we won it all we drew 2.4 million , in 2006 it was 2.9 million actually 43,000 short of 3 million.

 

[Dick Allen]

I'm not sure what years you are talking about with the 2 years winning 90 game and dropping in attendance. In 2005 when we won it all we drew 2.4 million , in 2006 it was 2.9 million actually 43,000 short of 3 million.

Those 2 were 90 win seasons. In 2007, attendances dropped. Mad the playoffs in 2008, attendance down again and continued to drop every year including 2012 when the team was in first place most of the season, until last year.

[Lip Man 1]

You highlight a good point. Winning has some correlation to Sox fan attendance (as seen in 2006), but not always. I remember the attendance being surprisingly weak for a good portion of the historic 2005 season when they well ahead of the pack in first place from the get go.

 

And it wasn't particularly strong in 2012 when they were battling with Detroit for the division title in September. The fans inexplicably didn't turn out as much as could have been expected down the stretch when the team needed the support.

 

I admit it that as a Sox fan, I'm guilty of not showing up at the park for long stretches without realizing it. I guess I just love watching it on HD TV at home or at a neighborhood bar better than going down to the stadium.

 

Doc:

 

As I posted in a series of stories called Sox and the Media, the problem is the Sox haven't consistently won making fans willing to take a chance and spend time and money on them. You talk about 2005 where they finished with good attendance but what happened in 2002, 2003, 2004? 2002 a .500 seasom, 2003 they urinated away a playoff spot in the final three weeks...2004, lost Frank and Mags, fell out of first place at the All Star Break (not the team's fault it happens.) My point is there was no reason for fans to expect or believe anything different was going to happen in 2005. When it looked like the Sox were for real things picked up in the second half of the season.

 

2012 you say? Well 2009 was a disaster, 2010 they fell out of firs place in August when the bullpen fell apart and got injured, 2011 was a losing season. Again no track record for fans to say, "this year will be different."

 

And that historically has been a problem. The Sox after all are the only one of the original pre expansion 16 MLB franchises to have NEVER made the post season in consecutive years. Ever.

 

They won in 2005 and 2006, attendance was 2.3 and 2.9 million. Had they been able to keep it going instead of falling apart in 2007 and 2009 this wouldn't be as bad of a situation in my opinion.

 

Mark

[Balta1701]

When the White Sox won the WS, they were 17th in attendance. In 2012 when they were in first place most of the season they were in 24th. Winning helps but not a lot.

If the White Sox have reached a point where even serious winning over multiple seasons would not push them back >30,000 tickets/game then they need to move away from this city, because that means their market has abandoned them or been destroyed.

[caulfield12]

Yes, and that 2007 team was terrible...not to mention the last 70 games of 2006 when they were 8 games below .500.

 

That wiped out most of the bloom from winning the World Series.

 

Every baseball fan knows the true attendance bump comes the following season after a playoff appearance. Not during, so much.

[caulfield12]

Comparing us to the Red Sox, Yanks, Dodgers, Angels, Giants, etc., is a pointless endeavor.

 

It's as helpful as comparing Reinsdorf to Illich.

[The Mighty Mite]

Those 2 were 90 win seasons. In 2007, attendances dropped. Mad the playoffs in 2008, attendance down again and continued to drop every year including 2012 when the team was in first place most of the season, until last year.

 

OK, now I get what you are saying, 2007 was a bad year, 72-90, worse than this year. IIRC we had one of the worst weekend massacres ever at the hands of the BoSox.

Edited August 25, 2016 by The Mighty Mite

[Dick Allen]

Yes, and that 2007 team was terrible...not to mention the last 70 games of 2006 when they were 8 games below .500.

 

That wiped out most of the bloom from winning the World Series.

 

Every baseball fan knows the true attendance bump comes the following season after a playoff appearance. Not during, so much.

So 2009 was lower than 2008.making the playoffs didn't help theSox, but I am sure there is another unique excuse. The fact is Most fans of teams look for reasons to go to games, Sox fans do the opposite, look for reasons not to go to games, such as your suggestion of Guaranteed Rate Field being on the ticket, and ruining a scrapbook opportunity. The horror. Hopefully the higher fee being paid will cover the loss of attendees due to a name on a ticket.

 

And if attendance is so cut and dried, why do you make so many doom and gloom attendance posts every year?

Edited August 26, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Lip Man 1]

Doc:

 

Maybe another way of putting it with what I posted earlier is this. (And I know this is a generalization). Most Sox fans don not believe this organization is capable of sustained success. They have lost confidence in them and they have lost credibility for a number of reasons.

 

Some say that makes Sox fans bad, I say it makes them realistic and skeptical with good reason. Change those dynamics and I'm sure things will be fine...continue on the path they are on now and it's going to get worse.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Mark

 

[Dick Allen]

Paulie even said he always thought Sox fans would come out when they are winning, but 2012 shocked him. People didn't show.

 

It is going on in Cleveland now.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Hatchetman]

Since 2006 the Sox haven't managed to even put two .500 seasons together! That's terrible. How are you going to sell season ticket packages with that kind of momentum?

[The Mighty Mite]

Paulie even said he always thought Sox fans would come out when they are winning, but 2012 shocked him. People didn't show.

 

It is going on in Cleveland now.

 

For some reason the Walk Up factor has gone by the wayside in recent years, why? I don't know but the Sox especially at old Comiskey if they had a good year they would do really well with the walk ups. I guess it's all about the season ticket and advance sales these days.

 

A lot has been made about the loss of our fan base, if you compare it to the days at old Comiskey it has grown quite substantially but if you compare it to most of the other teams in MLB in this day and age, it stinks.

 

What I find amazing is how attendance has grown in all sports with ticket prices that are astronomical. A lot of teams are selling out all their games in many towns. When I was a kid the benchmark in MLB was 1 million, if you drew that many fans you were doing quite well, now 1 miliion is Tampa Bay bad.

 

[Dick Allen]

For some reason the Walk Up factor has gone by the wayside in recent years, why? I don't know but the Sox especially at old Comiskey if they had a good year they would do really well with the walk ups. I guess it's all about the season ticket and advance sales these days.

 

A lot has been made about the loss of our fan base, if you compare it to the days at old Comiskey it has grown quite substantially but if you compare it to most of the other teams in MLB in this day and age, it stinks.

 

What I find amazing is how attendance has grown in all sports with ticket prices that are astronomical. A lot of teams are selling out all their games in many towns. When I was a kid the benchmark in MLB was 1 million, if you drew that many fans you were doing quite well, now 1 miliion is Tampa Bay bad.

Most buy their tickets on line and through secondary sites looking for deals. They also plan in advanced more than in the past. Maybe HDTVs have something to do with it as well. I read a couple years ago the Sox had something like a walk up of 1500 and at that point it was the largest of the season.

[The Mighty Mite]

Most buy their tickets on line and through secondary sites looking for deals. They also plan in advanced more than in the past. Maybe HDTVs have something to do with it as well. I read a couple years ago the Sox had something like a walk up of 1500 and at that point it was the largest of the season.

 

At the old park IIRC there were days that that had walk ups well over 10,000, you go back to the 70s, half the ball park was General Admission seats and only could be bought when the gates opened. When they drew 55,555 for bat day in 1973 there had to be at least 30,000 walk ups.

Edited August 26, 2016 by The Mighty Mite

[Dick Allen]

At the old park IIRC there were days that that had walk ups well over 10,000.

Yes half priced Monday's and Tuesday"s half price with a Pepsi can.

[caulfield12]

So 2009 was lower than 2008.making the playoffs didn't help theSox, but I am sure there is another unique excuse. The fact is Most fans of teams look for reasons to go to games, Sox fans do the opposite, look for reasons not to go to games, such as your suggestion of Guaranteed Rate Field being on the ticket, and ruining a scrapbook opportunity. The horror. Hopefully the higher fee being paid will cover the loss of attendees due to a name on a ticket.

 

And if attendance is so cut and dried, why do you make so many doom and gloom attendance posts every year?

 

 

Mariners...new tv contract paying them $118 million per year, added hitting stars such as Cruz and Cano, uptick in attendance, much more competitive and have a good chance at the AL Wild Card if one of the AL East teams falters late

 

Padres...well document, won the offseason of 2014-15 along with the White Sox, but are now in a committed rebuilding period, including dumping James Shields off on the White Sox, fans have been buying into that plan and blaming owner more than GM

 

Marlins...worst owner in all of professional sports now that Sterling is gone (I suppose Daniel Snyder would get some votes, too), well document tear downs of numerous teams dating back to Huizenga after 1997 and 2003, and then Loria's "leadership," which included a GM being demoted to field manager in Dan Jennings. They do have Jose Fernandez, Giancarlo Stanton and a decent chance at the wild card spot. Beautiful new baseball stadium.

 

 

So these are the only three organizations who have done worse at making the playoffs.

 

All of them are sitting in better positions than the White Sox, both presently and for the future, with the exception possibly of Miami, Arizona, TB and Oakland.

 

We're 25th in attendance, and you can argue quite logically we're the 26th best franchise in baseball, looking at current in-season results and minor league talent depth/prospect rankings.

 

 

Cleveland is another situation, much like the Marlins, where the ownership group set the fanbase on fire by completely tearing down two mini-dynasties, especially alienating the fans after the 2007 season. But, at least, they hired one of the most respected managers in baseball and paid him as such. Everyone knows the Indians and Rockies routinely dueled over attendance trophies and Jacobs/Progressive set the record at the time for consecutive sell-outs (over a long, multi-year period).

[Dick Allen]

Mariners...new tv contract paying them $118 million per year, added hitting stars such as Cruz and Cano, uptick in attendance, much more competitive and have a good chance at the AL Wild Card if one of the AL East teams falters late

 

Padres...well document, won the offseason of 2014-15 along with the White Sox, but are now in a committed rebuilding period, including dumping James Shields off on the White Sox, fans have been buying into that plan and blaming owner more than GM

 

Marlins...worst owner in all of professional sports now that Sterling is gone (I suppose Daniel Snyder would get some votes, too), well document tear downs of numerous teams dating back to Huizenga after 1997 and 2003, and then Loria's "leadership," which included a GM being demoted to field manager in Dan Jennings. They do have Jose Fernandez, Giancarlo Stanton and a decent chance at the wild card spot. Beautiful new baseball stadium.

 

 

So these are the only three organizations who have done worse at making the playoffs.

 

All of them are sitting in better positions than the White Sox, both presently and for the future, with the exception possibly of Miami, Arizona, TB and Oakland.

 

We're 25th in attendance, and you can argue quite logically we're the 26th best franchise in baseball, looking at current in-season results and minor league talent depth/prospect rankings.

 

 

Cleveland is another situation, much like the Marlins, where the ownership group set the fanbase on fire by completely tearing down two mini-dynasties, especially alienating the fans after the 2007 season. But, at least, they hired one of the most respected managers in baseball and paid him as such. Everyone knows the Indians and Rockies routinely dueled over attendance trophies and Jacobs/Progressive set the record at the time for consecutive sell-outs (over a long, multi-year period).

Again the year the White Sox won the World Series and were in first place every day of said season, they were in the bottom half of the league in attendance. Below the AL average. It will be they have to make the playoffs 2 years in a row, then 3.

How did the Imdians alienate fans after the 2007 season? Was it trading CC when they were 37-51 and 13.5 games out in July? Or are you making things up again?

Edited August 26, 2016 by Dick Allen

[captain54]

Now if you want a real example of arguing with yourself...

 

Nice try, but a...no.

 

The roster has turned over multiple times, yet the status quo of the front office remains. Those involved in throwing something against the wall to see if it sticks, are given opportunity after opportunity, despite the franchise bring stuck in quicksand

 

And let's knock it off with the "Reinsdorf Hater" crap, shall we? I'm one of JR's biggest critics as far the transgressions of the ballclub, but personally I've dealt with JR thru charities and he's one of the nicest guys you could meet.

 

I don't "hate" people unless they've committed some act of atrocity. I'm sure most JR critics feel the same.

 

Of course, I get that you need to paint people into this lunatic box in order to flesh out your narrative. But please, knock it off. It makes you sound like you're in Junior High

Edited August 26, 2016 by captain54

[greg775]

Guaranteed Rate Field is a total embarrassment, one of the lowest moments in Chicago sports history.

However ... it should immediately be nicknamed Great Field as somebody said. Case closed.

[caulfield12]

Again the year the White Sox won the World Series and were in first place every day of said season, they were in the bottom half of the league in attendance. Below the AL average. It will be they have to make the playoffs 2 years in a row, then 3.

How did the Imdians alienate fans after the 2007 season? Was it trading CC when they were 37-51 and 13.5 games out in July? Or are you making things up again?

 

Well, I'm sure if your favorite team just gotten to the World Series for the first time in a decade (after patiently waiting through a 3-5 year rebuilding period), only to see Sabathia, Cliff Lee, Peralta and Victor Martinez depart in quick order, you would be none too pleased.

 

Making things up again? You know nothing about what Dolan has done to destroy that fanbase. These were THE BEST fans in baseball for a generation, they don't just give up on the franchise overnight.

 

So try googling "Dolan hate Indians fans frustrated" and see what comes up.

[Dick Allen]

Well, I'm sure if your favorite team just gotten to the World Series for the first time in a decade (after patiently waiting through a 3-5 year rebuilding period), only to see Sabathia, Cliff Lee, Peralta and Victor Martinez depart in quick order, you would be none too pleased.

 

Making things up again? You know nothing about what Dolan has done to destroy that fanbase. These were THE BEST fans in baseball for a generation, they don't just give up on the franchise overnight.

 

So try googling "Dolan hate Indians fans frustrated" and see what comes up.

So they alienated fans by trading a free agent to be Sabatthia in 2008 when they were 13.5 games out in July and got Brantley, traded a free agent to be Cliff Lee and Victor Martinez in 2009 when they lost 97 games and got Carassco and Materson. and traded Jhonny Peralta in 2010 when they lost 93 games and he was going to be a free agent.

 

I guess then he idea of trading Sale or Quintana would only alienate the fan base, so I am sure you are against it. Or pretty much trading anyone of substance even if they have 2 months left on their contract.

 

What is bizarre is after 2007 their attendance dropped when every baseball fan knows you get a bump the year after. It continued to drop until 2011 when all those guys were gone and it rose almost 500k.

 

A generation? It was 7 years of having a stacked team.as soon as that team sprung a leak, they fled. That isn't a trait of the best fans.

 

Do you make up as much garbage in real life and assume people are so stupid they will buy it? You make things up and when called on it, instead of just admitting you are busted, you make up even more. It is really fascinating.

 

Start using facts, not stuff you just make up.

Edited August 26, 2016 by Dick Allen