Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana

[southsider2k5]

It's a crap shoot to be sure. The risk you run of course by not trading your most valuable trading pieces over the winter is if they get hurt, their value is practically zero.

 

As I've said often there are no easy answers or solutions to stop the culture of losing that has hit this franchise.

 

Mark

 

As opposed to the risk of adding players that bust, which is MUCH higher historically.

[caulfield12]

As opposed to the risk of adding players that bust, which is MUCH higher historically.

 

For this front office....historically accurate post 2008 (and you could throw Swisher in starting that year).

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Why do people assume a total rebuild will guarantee a higher level of organizational talent? Also if the Sox are going in that direction I'd much prefer to have a different front office pulling those strings. I'm sorry but when Jackie Bradley Jr is reportedly the centerpiece of a Sale trade I don't know how that improves the organization. Sure we don't know what other 3 or 4 prospects were requested but if they were guys like Devers/Kopech/Swihart I don't see how that dramatically improves the major league club now or in the future.

Edited September 6, 2016 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[Thad Bosley]

Wieters would be a significant upgrade over Navarro and Volquez would be a significant upgrade over Danks/Shields/Ranaudo. Did I ever say they are all star caliber? No, well I suppose Wieters did make it this year due to a strong first half. I'm not asking for all star performance out of those guys but even serviceable would be a vast improvement over the black holes we have had at those two spots this season. And yes, with the addition of Burdi, Putnam, Petricka, and possibly one other arm via trade or free agency I expect the bullpen to be much better next year. It also helps when your fifth starter doesn't completely destroy your bullpen every 5 days, this aspect cannot be understated.

These aren't the kind of upgrades that will transform this current team into a contender. What you are proposing is same church, different pew from what's been happening through the retooling efforts of recent years, and which would inevitably result next year in yet another year of meaningless, boring baseball on the South Side. Time for a different approach.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

These aren't the kind of upgrades that will transform this current team into a contender. What you are proposing is same church, different pew from what's been happening through the retooling efforts of recent years, and which would inevitably result next year in yet another year of meaningless, boring baseball on the South Side. Time for a different approach.

That's your opinion. Mine is that roster can be competitive. If not, unload at next year's deadline. I'm willing to wait the first 4 months of next season to let it play out and clearly the front office is as well.

[captain54]

Also if the Sox are going in that direction I'd much prefer to have a different front office pulling those strings.

 

Now you're all over the place. You don't trust the front office, but yet you're on board with them retooling with basically the same approach as has been exhibited over multiple seasons. Mix and match a bunch of middling, serviceable players.

[Balta1701]

As opposed to the risk of adding players that bust, which is MUCH higher historically.

I read this line first after seeing Weiters's name above and my brain processed it as a warning against playing the free agent market because of the bust risk.

 

I then stopped, looked at the rest of the post and the context, and realized - oh wait, it's not referring to that risk, it's only focusing on the rebuilding risk, as we usually do.

[Thad Bosley]

That's your opinion. Mine is that roster can be competitive. If not, unload at next year's deadline. I'm willing to wait the first 4 months of next season to let it play out and clearly the front office is as well.

Eh, I wouldn't be so sure about that. The combination of Reinsdorf's somewhat kryptic yet telling comment about how the first couple of moves this offseason will clearly show the direction the club is going in with the reports back in late July about how White Sox scouts were scouring the Red Sox farm system to "lay the ground for possible offseason" trades indicates to me we are at the end of the road on the retooling game.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Now you're all over the place. You don't trust the front office, but yet you're on board with them retooling with basically the same approach as has been exhibited over multiple seasons. Mix and match a bunch of middling, serviceable players.

What? Retooling with guys like Wieters, Moreland, Volquez is not rocket science. These guys are known commodities and have shown they can succeed in the AL. They are also guys that will not require excessive long term, high dollar commitments that can make or break the future of the franchise. Trading all of our vets for a bunch of prospects is something else altogether. If we are going that route, I'd prefer to do it with a different front office. If you screw that up you really can break the franchise much worse than it is currently broken. How well has the rebuild worked for the twins since 2010? They are still 2-3 years away from fielding a competitive team in the best case scenario, which is still no guarantee. Not all can't miss prospects turn out to be stars - just ask the twins about their one time #1 overall prospect in baseball Byron Buxton. MAYBE he will be an all star by the team he reaches free agency but MAYBE he will be a fourth outfielder too.

[Thad Bosley]

What? Retooling with guys like Wieters, Moreland, Volquez is not rocket science. These guys are known commodities and have shown they can succeed in the AL. They are also guys that will not require excessive long term, high dollar commitments that can make or break the future of the franchise. Trading all of our vets for a bunch of prospects is something else altogether. If we are going that route, I'd prefer to do it with a different front office. If you screw that up you really can break the franchise much worse than it is currently broken. How well has the rebuild worked for the twins since 2010? They are still 2-3 years away from fielding a competitive team in the best case scenario, which is still no guarantee. Not all can't miss prospects turn out to be stars - just ask the twins about their one time #1 overall prospect in baseball Byron Buxton. MAYBE he will be an all star by the team he reaches free agency but MAYBE he will be a fourth outfielder too.

The irony here is that you are willing to trust this front office with a job that they have a poor established track record on, i.e., retooling, but are unwilling to trust them with a job like rebuilding for which we actually don't know how good they'd do at such a thing.

[Dick Allen]

The irony here is that you are willing to trust this front office with a job that they have a poor established track record on, i.e., retooling, but are unwilling to trust them with a job like rebuilding for which we actually don't know how good they'd do at such a thing.

Because when you have Sale and Quintana, there is always a chance you might hit on someone and you still have Sale and Quintana.

 

Trading them could result in the Jesus Monteros, Logan Morrisons of the world. You, and the rest of us would be even more unhappy then. If you don't think these dopes can project players with MLB experience, it is kind of crazy to think they would be good at doing something even harder. Projecting players with no MLB experience. Although I once worked at a place that if you really wanted a promotion, failing at your job was the quickest path. They even once laid a woman off and found her a better paying job.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Thad Bosley]

Because when you have Sale and Quintana, there is always a chance you might hit on someone and you still have Sale and Quintana.

 

Trading them could result in the Jesus Monteros, Logan Morrisons of the world. You, and the rest of us would be even more unhappy then. If you don't think these dopes can project players with MLB experience, it is kind of crazy to think they would be good at doing something even harder. Projecting players with no MLB experience. Although I once worked at a place that if you really wanted a promotion, failing at your job was the quickest path. They even once laid a woman off and found her a better paying job.

Any other possible outcomes other than these couple of cherry picked bad trades from over the years you are reminding us of?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

The irony here is that you are willing to trust this front office with a job that they have a poor established track record on, i.e., retooling, but are unwilling to trust them with a job like rebuilding for which we actually don't know how good they'd do at such a thing.

It's not ironic at all. Would you agree that missing on the prospects involved in a Sale/Q package is much more detrimental to the long term future of the franchise than missing on a 2-year FA deal for someone like Moreland or Volquez? In one case, you no longer have Sale/Q and a bunch of crappy prospects/major leaguers. In the other case, you still have Sale/Q and a bunch o crappy prospects/major leaguers. If you are going the total rebuild option you better be damn sure you have the best front office and scouts in place to make those decisions - do you think we do? It's ironic that anyone thinking a front office that has failed with previous trades and FA acquisitions will excel in a total rebuild. That makes no sense to me.

 

Sign a few mid-tier free agents this offseason, a new manager, and see if it comes together. If it's still broken come mid-late June then there better be a clean out of the front office and let the new front office start the rebuild process in late July by unloading Melky, Frazier, Gonzalez, and Robertson. They can even wait until the following offseason to trade Sale and Q if they don't get blown away at the deadline. Those guys are under team control thru 2019 for goodness sake.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

and for those thinking mid-tier free agent signings never work out just take a look at the Indians this year. They aren't nearly as good without the free agent signings of Rajai Davis and Mike Napoli.

[Dick Allen]

Any other possible outcomes other than these couple of cherry picked bad trades from over the years you are reminding us of?

I could list busted prospects all day long, with every team.

 

The White Sox rebuilt in 1986, they rebuilt in 1997. According to you, the only "exciting" season they have had was 2005, which wasn't a rebuilding year.

 

Although I don't think you are like others here who really want the White Sox to fail because they would rather moan and point out how much smarter they are, I do think you want them to win. So, they rebuild, and did a pretty good job of it twice, yet it didn't meet your criteria. Why would you give up possibly getting lucky vs. a guaranteed 4 or 5 years of being awful and then if everything goes right it still may not work out to your requirements?

Edited September 6, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Thad Bosley]

It's not ironic at all. Would you agree that missing on the prospects involved in a Sale/Q package is much more detrimental to the long term future of the franchise than missing on a 2-year FA deal for someone like Moreland or Volquez? How about we don't miss on those prospects? That is a possible outcome, you know. In one case, you no longer have Sale/Q and a bunch of crappy prospects/major leaguers. Or you have a bunch of elite prospects who go onto outperform the mid-tier band aids you are suggesting the team pursue. In the other case, you still have Sale/Q and a bunch o crappy prospects/major leaguers. You mean like we have this year, last year, and if we go forward with what you propose, most likely next year as well. If you are going the total rebuild option you better be damn sure you have the best front office and scouts in place to make those decisions - do you think we do? It's ironic that anyone thinking a front office that has failed with previous trades and FA acquisitions will excel in a total rebuild. That makes no sense to me. We haven't had a chance to see what this particular front office can do with a rebuild. Sadly, we've seen what they are unable to accomplish with the kind of retooling you seem to still be interested in them doing.

 

Sign a few mid-tier free agents this offseason, (like the last few years? No thanks! Losing formula!) a new manager, and see if it comes together. If it's still broken come mid-late June then there better be a clean out of the front office and let the new front office start the rebuild process in late July by unloading Melky, Frazier, Gonzalez, and Robertson. You do realize with a bunch of rentals with the likes of Melky, Frazier, etc. that we will get little in return that would make any meaningful contribution to a successful rebuild. They can even wait until the following offseason to trade Sale and Q if they don't get blown away at the deadline. As Mother always said, don't put off till tomorrow what you can get done today! Those guys are under team control thru 2019 for goodness sake. Which is why today they are more valuable and will garner more in a return than they will a year from now.

 

[Dick Allen]

I disagree. There is a ceiling on the return. I think if Sale has 2 years left vs. 3 or 1.5 instead of 2, makes very little difference.

[Thad Bosley]

I could list busted prospects all day long, with every team.

 

The White Sox rebuilt in 1986, they rebuilt in 1997. According to you, the only "exciting" season they have had was 2005, which wasn't a rebuilding year.

 

Although I don't think you are like others here who really want the White Sox to fail because they would rather moan and point out how much smarter they are, I do think you want them to win. So, they rebuild, and did a pretty good job of it twice, yet it didn't meet your criteria. Why would you give up possibly getting lucky vs. a guaranteed 4 or 5 years of being awful and then if everything goes right it still may not work out to your requirements?

They did do a good job at the rebuild both times they did it during the times you referenced, and to use Reinsdorf speak, they got from Point A to Point B. Where they came up short was getting to Point C, but that's not what we are talking about here. We are not at Point B right now, so what I'd personally like to see is the effort to do the Point A to Point B exercise again, and then deal with getting to Point C when the time comes. Right now, I really don't know at what point this team is at all. Seems stuck somewhere in the middle, quite honestly.

[Dick Allen]

They did do a good job at the rebuild both times they did it during the times you referenced, and to use Reinsdorf speak, they got from Point A to Point B. Where they came up short was getting to Point C, but that's not what we are talking about here. We are not at Point B right now, so what I'd personally like to see is the effort to do the Point A to Point B exercise again, and then deal with getting to Point C when the time comes. Right now, I really don't know at what point this team is at all. Seems stuck somewhere in the middle, quite honestly.

So hopefully they can totally rebuild and in 4 or 5 years have guys like Sale, and Quintana, and Rodon, Anderson, Collins and Eaton. And then they can add free agents.

 

They have a talented but small core. If they hit on a few additions they would be right there. There is no juggernaut in the AL Central, and won't be anytime soon. They just have to make the correct additions.

 

 

 

 

 

[captain54]

Why would you give up possibly getting lucky vs. a guaranteed 4 or 5 years of being awful and then if everything goes right it still may not work out to your requirements?

 

Because Sox fandom, and by fandom I mean, the paying customer, is at probably the lowest point that I can recall, in

terms of having faith in the franchise

 

Should the Sox dump their two stars just for the sake of dumping? As a PR marketing move? Of course not.

 

But a combination of a flipped roster rejuvenated with young talent along with a flipped front office and manager? I'd rather see the Sox roll the dice on that scenario, by far. How many more years of failure against the Central and under .500 seasons do we need to be convinced that these guys at 35th and Shields are more or less incapable of making it happen at this point, (or have egos to big to admit) under the patch-and-go system?

 

 

 

 

[bmags]

I disagree. There is a ceiling on the return. I think if Sale has 2 years left vs. 3 or 1.5 instead of 2, makes very little difference.

 

I agree with this up to .5 years left. But depends how long you want to keep team in limbo.

[Rowand44]

Because when you have Sale and Quintana, there is always a chance you might hit on someone and you still have Sale and Quintana.

 

Trading them could result in the Jesus Monteros, Logan Morrisons of the world. You, and the rest of us would be even more unhappy then. If you don't think these dopes can project players with MLB experience, it is kind of crazy to think they would be good at doing something even harder. Projecting players with no MLB experience. Although I once worked at a place that if you really wanted a promotion, failing at your job was the quickest path. They even once laid a woman off and found her a better paying job.

So you are in the stick to the plan and maybe year 6 with these two will be the year boat? I just don't get how anybody could possibly want to keep doing this.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

They did do a good job at the rebuild both times they did it during the times you referenced, and to use Reinsdorf speak, they got from Point A to Point B. Where they came up short was getting to Point C, but that's not what we are talking about here. We are not at Point B right now, so what I'd personally like to see is the effort to do the Point A to Point B exercise again, and then deal with getting to Point C when the time comes. Right now, I really don't know at what point this team is at all. Seems stuck somewhere in the middle, quite honestly.

And still the only baseball championship that either side of town has witnessed during our lifetime is the one following an offseason of patching obvious holes at catcher, second base, right field, fifth starter, and bullpen with mid-tier free agents and trades. Sound familiar?

 

I think this whole discussion goes back to how far away one thinks this roster is from being a contender. I happen to think filling the obvious holes in the 25-man roster with productive players will result in a competitive team. As much as people keep saying it, last offseason was not "all in." If anything, that was a "stand pat" approach. What was their most expensive signing? Austin Jackson for 1 year at $5MM? I'm advocating signing 4 guys that exceed that type of contract but also don't reach the level of a Cespedes or Encarnacion - more in line with the 2014/2015 offseason approach because I believe the Sox have less holes to fill now than they did in 2014.

[Dick Allen]

So you are in the stick to the plan and maybe year 6 with these two will be the year boat? I just don't get how anybody could possibly want to keep doing this.

Maybe they learned their lesson they can really totally shop at Walmart.

 

I just don't understand how anyone can think these guys could be better at projecting minor leaguers than major leaguers. That's harder for anyone. If you think the guys they want to throw millions at can't play, why would guys they get for Sale or Quintana be able to play? Why wouldn't they be Avi or Leury Garcia? Or Jon Adkins, the guy they got for Ray Durham, or Matt Davidson? It's not like they have struck it rich when they did trade for prospects.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Maybe they learned their lesson they can really totally shop at Walmart.

 

I just don't understand how anyone can think these guys could be better at projecting minor leaguers than major leaguers. That's harder for anyone. If you think the guys they want to throw millions at can't play, why would guys they get for Sale or Quintana be able to play? Why wouldn't they be Avi or Leury Garcia? Or Jon Adkins, the guy they got for Ray Durham? It's not like they have struck it rich when they did trade for prospects.

Because you bring back 8+ of them, and you stop trading away the guys you currently have, and you receive higher draft slots.

 

Force the numbers to have some shot at overwhelming the poor scouting.