Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

OK. There are two strategies that SORT OF make some sense:

1. Trade Sale and/or Quintana and the complementary parts for all the prospects you can (total rebuild)

2. Keep everyone essentially in place and try to catch lightning in a bottle again ("go for it")

 

The one move that definitely does NOT make sense would be to trade all your complementary pieces but not Sale and/or Quintana (not even sure what this strategy would be called). That would get you exactly nowhere.

So there is only one way to rebuild and that is by trading everyone? What would you call the moves the Tigers made last season or the Red Sox a couple seasons prior or the Rangers after the 2013 season? I guess they just retooled because none of those teams traded EVERYONE of value from their major league roster. I guess retooling can work out pretty well too.

[Dick Allen]

Rebuilding means trading from your core, so guys like Sale, Quintana, Abreu, Eaton, Rodon, Anderson, & Jones. Trading a bunch of guys a year from free agency and coming off poor seasons is definitely not rebuilding.

 

Instead of arguing semantics, explain how such a strategy (deal the complimentary pieces) gets us closer to the playoffs or helps us achieve sustainable success.

Frees up cash. Brings young players into the organization. Same types of things trading Sale does. Maybe the prospects aren't as sexy, maybe they have even a greater chance and not being anything, but if it's taking a step back to hopefully take a few steps forward, it's rebuilding.

 

There are many ways to bring young players into an organization.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Dick Allen

[captain54]

If they unload everyone but Sale and Q, they sure as heck could afford extending Sale and Q if they wanted or they could go out and sign Manny Machado and Andrew McCutchen for true "all-in" seasons 2019 and beyond. I know that would be out of character for this franchise to sign high profile FA's but realize that there are more ways to rebuild than just tear the whole thing down to the ground until nothing is left. It is possible they would consider breaking character ahead of the new TV deal and possible sale of the franchise by landing a big star or two, I wouldn't rule it out completely especially if the rest of the payroll is already suppressed.

 

You are so far off of the rails with your argument at this point, it's getting to be almost impossible to follow you…

 

First off, the franchise is not going to be sold.. It will be in the hands of JR until he passes on, and will be left to his heirs.. the investors are so remotely not considering selling that countless interviews have them totally in the dark as to how it would actually transpire…

 

Forget your fantasy land Disney scenario of the Sox somehow magically re-creating 2005.. How many more years of failure is it going to take for you to be convinced that how they got their in 05', is simply ineffective at this point? The Sox have been "all in" since 2006, and except for backing into the playoffs in 08, and going out in the first round.. have absolutely nothing to show for it..

 

with the moving of Sale and/or Q in the offseason, the Sox have an unprecedented opportunity in a sellers market to possibly reload with established ML'ers. but also prospects who could be a part of the franchise for years to come.. Yes, nothing is guaranteed.. But the way I see the Sox don't have anything to lose at this point..especially considering they are mid market payroll, mid market revenue, still suffering the effects of a neglected farm, and an octogenarian owner, and a roster filled with talent, that if traded.. can only result in parallel moves….

 

But apparently you seem to be content (or maybe oblivious) to the fact that the fan base is seriously eroding, attendance at or near the bottom, rock bottom TV ratings, and an ungodly terrible record against the teams they absolutely need to be beat, to be considered a contender…

 

 

 

[Thad Bosley]

So there is only one way to rebuild and that is by trading everyone? What would you call the moves the Tigers made last season or the Red Sox a couple seasons prior or the Rangers after the 2013 season? I guess they just retooled because none of those teams traded EVERYONE of value from their major league roster. I guess retooling can work out pretty well too.

I don't know if you've noticed, but retooling has not even come close to working out with this particular roster. And unfortunately, the retooling you've been suggesting wouldn't work either. Retooling isn't just about upgrading over the subpar players on the current roster and then claiming success. Retooling is getting players of a certain caliber that collectively can join the core and enable them to legitimately compete for a chance for the postseason. Adding Wieters, Volquez, Fowler and Moreland to this current roster does not get this team to that level. That's just the 2017 version of adding Melky, LaRoche, Robertson and Duke.

[Hatchetman]

Oh for crying out loud. So they are doing the same thing they always do.

[Hatchetman]

You "retool" something that was good to begin with. Like a Navy sub with new electronics and missiles. you don't retool the Titanic.

[Chicago White Sox]

You don't trade Rodon and Anderson in a rebuild. Those are the types of guys you want to acquire, not trade away.

 

The rest...sure. Though I'd still have really tough time trading Eaton and Abreu. I'd want packages just a tad under what I'd want for Q for those two.

Oh I'm not suggesting you trade Rodon or Anderson, I'm just saying a rebuild is when you trade core guys (and they're simply part of our core). Obviously the guys should be looking to deal are Sale, Quintana, Abreu, & Eaton. And I'm in agreement with you, I'd rather deal the pitchers than the position players, but would open to dealing any and all of them if the returns are right.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

You "retool" something that was good to begin with. Like a Navy sub with new electronics and missiles. you don't retool the Titanic.

so the tigers were "good" last year? the red sox were "good" the last 3 seasons prior to this year?

[Thad Bosley]

You are so far off of the rails with your argument at this point, it's getting to be almost impossible to follow you…

 

First off, the franchise is not going to be sold.. It will be in the hands of JR until he passes on, and will be left to his heirs.. the investors are so remotely not considering selling that countless interviews have them totally in the dark as to how it would actually transpire…

 

Forget your fantasy land Disney scenario of the Sox somehow magically re-creating 2005.. How many more years of failure is it going to take for you to be convinced that how they got their in 05', is simply ineffective at this point? The Sox have been "all in" since 2006, and except for backing into the playoffs in 08, and going out in the first round.. have absolutely nothing to show for it..

 

with the moving of Sale and/or Q in the offseason, the Sox have an unprecedented opportunity in a sellers market to possibly reload with established ML'ers. but also prospects who could be a part of the franchise for years to come.. Yes, nothing is guaranteed.. But the way I see the Sox don't have anything to lose at this point..especially considering they are mid market payroll, mid market revenue, still suffering the effects of a neglected farm, and an octogenarian owner, and a roster filled with talent, that if traded.. can only result in parallel moves….

 

But apparently you seem to be content (or maybe oblivious) to the fact that the fan base is seriously eroding, attendance at or near the bottom, rock bottom TV ratings, and an ungodly terrible record against the teams they absolutely need to be beat, to be considered a contender…

THIS!!!!! THANK YOU!!!!

[Dick Allen]

The last time the White Sox did what would be considered a full rebuild, they kept one of their best players, if not their best, in Carlton Fisk. Was that a re-tool?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

I don't know if you've noticed, but retooling has not even come close to working out with this particular roster. And unfortunately, the retooling you've been suggesting wouldn't work either. Retooling isn't just about upgrading over the subpar players on the current roster and then claiming success. Retooling is getting players of a certain caliber that collectively can join the core and enable them to legitimately compete for a chance for the postseason. Adding Wieters, Volquez, Fowler and Moreland to this current roster does not get this team to that level. That's just the 2017 version of adding Melky, LaRoche, Robertson and Duke.

you state everything so matter-of-factly. I have said that I believe that team can compete, obviously nothing is guaranteed. not sure how you know for a fact that team couldn't compete. I'm sure you took the Rangers and Indians to have the two best records in the AL this year too. since you know exactly how everything will play out, who is going to win the world series this year?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

You are so far off of the rails with your argument at this point, it's getting to be almost impossible to follow you…

 

First off, the franchise is not going to be sold.. It will be in the hands of JR until he passes on, and will be left to his heirs.. the investors are so remotely not considering selling that countless interviews have them totally in the dark as to how it would actually transpire…

 

Forget your fantasy land Disney scenario of the Sox somehow magically re-creating 2005.. How many more years of failure is it going to take for you to be convinced that how they got their in 05', is simply ineffective at this point? The Sox have been "all in" since 2006, and except for backing into the playoffs in 08, and going out in the first round.. have absolutely nothing to show for it..

 

with the moving of Sale and/or Q in the offseason, the Sox have an unprecedented opportunity in a sellers market to possibly reload with established ML'ers. but also prospects who could be a part of the franchise for years to come.. Yes, nothing is guaranteed.. But the way I see the Sox don't have anything to lose at this point..especially considering they are mid market payroll, mid market revenue, still suffering the effects of a neglected farm, and an octogenarian owner, and a roster filled with talent, that if traded.. can only result in parallel moves….

 

But apparently you seem to be content (or maybe oblivious) to the fact that the fan base is seriously eroding, attendance at or near the bottom, rock bottom TV ratings, and an ungodly terrible record against the teams they absolutely need to be beat, to be considered a contender…

we're not going to agree on this. you can believe whatever you want to believe that trading all of our vets for prospects will result in a Cubs-like turnaround. in my opinion, that is even more far-fetched than the retool and competing next year scenario I proposed.

[Dick Allen]

you state everything so matter-of-factly. I have said that I believe that team can compete, obviously nothing is guaranteed. not sure how you know for a fact that team couldn't compete. I'm sure you took the Rangers and Indians to have the two best records in the AL this year too. since you know exactly how everything will play out, who is going to win the world series this year?

You can't win with him. He thinks the only exciting season since Reinsdorf owned the team is when they won the WS. Any other season, including playoff appearances....a boring failure. He did move the bar and say consecutive playoff appearances are exciting. So get this, in his world winning 102 games, and losing the WS in 7 games, boring, but the next year, if you did that and then snuck into the WC with an 86 win season and get trounced in one game, far more exciting because it's consecutive. He's probably the only guy who when Javy Vazquez got lit up in the 2008 playoffs, blamed Reinsdorf.

[Hatchetman]

The last time the White Sox did what would be considered a full rebuild, they kept one of their best players, if not their best, in Carlton Fisk. Was that a re-tool?

 

They would have but he was a 5/10 guy with kids in local high schools. he wasn't going anywhere.

 

The Larry Himes rebuild worked pretty well. Though that was pretty much the only thing he could do with collusion going on and not being able to sign any FA's.

[Thad Bosley]

You can't win with him. He thinks the only exciting season since Reinsdorf owned the team is when they won the WS. Any other season, including playoff appearances....a boring failure. He did move the bar and say consecutive playoff appearances are exciting. So get this, in his world winning 102 games, and losing the WS in 7 games, boring, but the next year, if you did that and then snuck into the WC with an 86 win season and get trounced in one game, far more exciting because it's consecutive. He's probably the only guy who when Javy Vazquez got lit up in the 2008 playoffs, blamed Reinsdorf.

[Dick Allen]

They would have but he was a 5/10 guy with kids in local high schools. he wasn't going anywhere.

 

The Larry Himes rebuild worked pretty well. Though that was pretty much the only thing he could do with collusion going on and not being able to sign any FA's.

Also kept Ozzie Guillen. In 3 years, you are going to flip the roster anyways. Avi is the longest tenured position player on the Sox now without a rebuild and he was acquired 3 years ago.

[Thad Bosley]

You can't win with him. He thinks the only exciting season since Reinsdorf owned the team is when they won the WS. Any other season, including playoff appearances....a boring failure. He did move the bar and say consecutive playoff appearances are exciting. So get this, in his world winning 102 games, and losing the WS in 7 games, boring, but the next year, if you did that and then snuck into the WC with an 86 win season and get trounced in one game, far more exciting because it's consecutive. He's probably the only guy who when Javy Vazquez got lit up in the 2008 playoffs, blamed Reinsdorf.

In the 35 years of Reinsdorf's regime outside of our magical 2005 season - 35 years, mind you - just four playoff appearances and a measly four playoff wins across those four appearances. So I stand corrected - the excitement at 35th & Shields has been in great abundance during the past nearly four decades.

[Hatchetman]

This isn't going to be a "retool" or a "rebuild" its going to be a "salary dump."

 

Robertson $12MM

Cabrera $15MM

Frazier $10MM

Lawrie $6MM

-----------------------

$43MM in savings! Brilliant.

[captain54]

we're not going to agree on this. you can believe whatever you want to believe that trading all of our vets for prospects will result in a Cubs-like turnaround. in my opinion, that is even more far-fetched than the retool and competing next year scenario I proposed.

 

I never suggested the Sox trade all of their vets for prospects.. I said the Sox have a golden opportunity this offseason, in a sellers market, to command prospects and established major leaguers for assets that will command more than simply lateral moves, as you are suggesting in your re-tool scenario...

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

I never suggested the Sox trade all of their vets for prospects.. I said the Sox have a golden opportunity this offseason, in a sellers market, to command prospects and established major leaguers for assets that will command more than simply lateral moves, as you are suggesting in your re-tool scenario...

which players specifically then are you suggesting the Sox trade? and who are you trading them for?

[caulfield12]

Logic dictates trading Sale and Eaton.

 

Sale will bring back a higher return, and we have Q for one more year and he seems to have the better likelihood of being healthy in 2019-2020. That said, you never know.

 

Eaton, because he's at peak value, probably can't get any better than this, and is an elevated injury risk.

 

Trading Abreu won't get you a bigger return because he's limited more to AL teams who would prefer to DH him...and he doesn't look like a tremendous bargain when you consider his arbitration status/escalating salary. Finally, it's a lot harder to sign or trade for a true impact bat than it is find a combination of good hitter and fielder (of course, not easy either). With Heyward and Gordon showing the danger of overpaying for defense, though, it feels right to trade the guy who been Top 10-12 in war nearly all season long.

 

And you have to really hit one of those two deals on the head...you can't miss on both.

[ChiSox59]

Logic dictates trading Sale and Eaton.

 

Sale will bring back a higher return, and we have Q for one more year and he seems to have the better likelihood of being healthy in 2019-2020. That said, you never know.

 

Eaton, because he's at peak value, probably can't get any better than this, and is an elevated injury risk.

 

Trading Abreu won't get you a bigger return because he's limited more to AL teams who would prefer to DH him...and he doesn't look like a tremendous bargain when you consider his arbitration status/escalating salary. Finally, it's a lot harder to sign or trade for a true impact bat than it is find a combination of good hitter and fielder (of course, not easy either). With Heyward and Gordon showing the danger of overpaying for defense, though, it feels right to trade the guy who been Top 10-12 in war nearly all season long.

 

And you have to really hit one of those two deals on the head...you can't miss on both.

 

I think Abreu gets a huge return if the Sox want to move him. He's clearly figured it out and remains and enormous bargain, even as a DH.

[southsider2k5]

I think Abreu gets a huge return if the Sox want to move him. He's clearly figured it out and remains and enormous bargain, even as a DH.

 

DH's have really plummeted in value over the last five years.

[bmags]

DH's have really plummeted in value over the last five years.

 

Don't tell the white sox.

[southsider2k5]

Abreu .298 now