Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana

[southsider2k5]

Big hit for Avi too.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Abreu .298 now

This offense sure looks a lot better when Jose is hitting like Jose. He has a good chance of ending with 100+ RBI once again and average over .300. He will probably fall just short of 30 homers again though. Nevertheless, very encouraging sign if they do give retooling a try for next season. Jose putting up an OPS of 900+ makes the entire lineup better.

[iamshack]

This offense sure looks a lot better when Jose is hitting like Jose. He has a good chance of ending with 100+ RBI once again and average over .300. He will probably fall just short of 30 homers again though. Nevertheless, very encouraging sign if they do give retooling a try for next season. Jose putting up an OPS of 900+ makes the entire lineup better.

Someone touched on this the other day and I have touched on it in previous weeks...so as of now Abreu is raking and Sale and Q are both pitching fairly close to what we would expect from them....and yet...WE ARE STILL NOT WINNING consistently.

 

Who cares what things might "look" like. There is proof that even with these guys clicking, we still cannot win consistently.

 

This simply is not working.

[southsider2k5]

Someone touched on this the other day and I have touched on it in previous weeks...so as of now Abreu is raking and Sale and Q are both pitching fairly close to what we would expect from them....and yet...WE ARE STILL NOT WINNING consistently.

 

Who cares what things might "look" like. There is proof that even with these guys clicking, we still cannot win consistently.

 

This simply is not working.

 

It isn't going to work with the defense and offense where it is at.

 

But that does mean that if we subtract them what we get back not only has to cover what we lose in Sale or Quintana, it has to eventually exceed it, otherwise nothing is gained, or in fact it will make things worse.

[iamshack]

It isn't going to work with the defense and offense where it is at.

 

But that does mean that if we subtract them what we get back not only has to cover what we lose in Sale or Quintana, it has to eventually exceed it, otherwise nothing is gained, or in fact it will make things worse.

Well sure - I don't think anyone is in favor of subtraction by... subtraction

 

I think it does show that creating a winning ball club isn't just a matter of developing a few core players, but of understanding how to assemble a full team.

 

If there is any real criticism of Kenny's that I have ever bought into, it is this one. Interestingly enough, it is very rarely articulated.

[Dick Allen]

Someone touched on this the other day and I have touched on it in previous weeks...so as of now Abreu is raking and Sale and Q are both pitching fairly close to what we would expect from them....and yet...WE ARE STILL NOT WINNING consistently.

 

Who cares what things might "look" like. There is proof that even with these guys clicking, we still cannot win consistently.

 

This simply is not working.

That is pretty short sided. If Abreu had been like this all year, half the bullpen wouldn't be in White Sox uniforms. Shields and Ranaudo wouldn't be given the leashes they have been given. It is a totally different situation. But you are going to get your wish.

[Wanne]

they really should trade Quintana and consider it a "mercy killing"....good god the dude is the best...unluckiest...least supported pitcher I've ever seen.

[iamshack]

That is pretty short sided. If Abreu had been like this all year, half the bullpen wouldn't be in White Sox uniforms. Shields and Ranaudo wouldn't be given the leashes they have been given. It is a totally different situation. But you are going to get your wish.

But Abreu could never hit like this all year...he's been hitting like 2000 Barry Bonds over the past month and we STILL aren't exactly tearing it up.

Edited September 7, 2016 by iamshack

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Someone touched on this the other day and I have touched on it in previous weeks...so as of now Abreu is raking and Sale and Q are both pitching fairly close to what we would expect from them....and yet...WE ARE STILL NOT WINNING consistently.

 

Who cares what things might "look" like. There is proof that even with these guys clicking, we still cannot win consistently.

 

This simply is not working.

But WHY aren't they winning consistently? Let's keep this very simple. Remove our 3-headed monster filling out the fifth starter spot (Ranaudo/Shields/Danks) and this team is 60-53. That's without even addressing the GLARING holes at catcher, center field, and middle bullpen.

[Dick Allen]

But Abreu could never hit like this all year...he's been hitting like 2000 Barry Bonds over the past month and we STILL aren't exactly tearing it up.

Beck, Turner, Kahnle, Ynoa, Shields, Ranaudo.. Just a few reasons why. It isn't like they have their full roster hitting on all cylinders.

 

They also went 23-10 when he wasn't hitting much.

 

If he was hitting like this earlier, the roster would probably look very different right now.

[iamshack]

But WHY aren't they winning consistently? Let's keep this very simple. Remove our 3-headed monster filling out the fifth starter spot (Ranaudo/Shields/Danks) and this team is 60-53. That's without even addressing the GLARING holes at catcher, center field, and middle bullpen.

But we tried to address those holes last offseason and what happened?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

But we tried to address those holes last offseason and what happened?

Did we really?

[iamshack]

Did we really?

Yes...we signed not 1 but a platoon of catchers.

 

We signed a center fielder.

 

Brought back Matt Albers.

 

Do you really think we'll address those positions with more vigor next year?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Yes...we signed not 1 but a platoon of catchers.

 

We signed a center fielder.

 

Brought back Matt Albers.

 

Do you really think we'll address those positions with more vigor next year?

I would hope so if they are planning to compete. I don't consider signing 2 over the hill catchers and rapidly declining CF and SP as addressing those holes. Give me guys that aren't on a rapid decline in the prior year(s).

[iamshack]

I would hope so if they are planning to compete. I don't consider signing 2 over the hill catchers and rapidly declining CF and SP as addressing those holes. Give me guys that aren't on a rapid decline in the prior year(s).

So it is your belief that we were not intending to compete this year?

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

So it is your belief that we were not intending to compete this year?

I think they intended to compete but sure didn't spend like it last offseason. I honestly believe even Hahn knew that the signings were destined for failure but he was likely given a hard cap on what he could spend. Do you think Hahn would have settled for guys like Latos, Rollins and Jackson if he was given a larger budget? That's why I have been saying that if they want to compete next year JR has to be willing to increase the payroll. They won't be able to compete otherwise.

[iamshack]

I think they intended to compete but sure didn't spend like it last offseason. I honestly believe even Hahn knew that the signings were destined for failure but he was likely given a hard cap on what he could spend. Do you think Hahn would have settled for guys like Latos, Rollins and Jackson if he was given a larger budget? That's why I have been saying that if they want to compete next year JR has to be willing to increase the payroll. They won't be able to compete otherwise.

Ok. I just don't have great expectations that will happen.

[caulfield12]

Don't tell the white sox.

 

 

As evidenced by our spending what, about $3 million, on Avi and Morneau?

 

DH has been a problem for the White Sox ever since 2011 (I'll give Dunn most of 2012 to his credit, but it certainly wasn't like we were getting cheap production there) and it's likely to continue to be an issue into 2017.

 

The odds of them overpaying for an Encarnacion type are just about nil. Of course, that leaves you with someone like Jose Bautista 2-3 years too late when his career completely craters, a Morneau, a Moreland, a Kendrys Morales who might have one more solid season left or might not, as you never know with players past 30 anymore (won't get into the David Ortiz at age 40 discussion/anomaly).

[caulfield12]

I think they intended to compete but sure didn't spend like it last offseason. I honestly believe even Hahn knew that the signings were destined for failure but he was likely given a hard cap on what he could spend. Do you think Hahn would have settled for guys like Latos, Rollins and Jackson if he was given a larger budget? That's why I have been saying that if they want to compete next year JR has to be willing to increase the payroll. They won't be able to compete otherwise.

 

If that's true, then he wouldn't have cut Danks, Latos and Rollins, brought up Anderson and added Shields.

 

Of course, in the end, you can't cover catching injuries, CF and bullpen replacements very easily in the middle of a season when you have a barren minor league system.

 

Meanwhile, lots of teams like the Cardinals, Indians, Rangers or Royals just muddle through any injuries because they have depth and talent at almost every position waiting for an opportunity.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

If that's true, then he wouldn't have cut Danks, Latos and Rollins, brought up Anderson and added Shields.

 

Of course, in the end, you can't cover catching injuries, CF and bullpen replacements very easily in the middle of a season when you have a barren minor league system.

 

Meanwhile, lots of teams like the Cardinals, Indians, Rangers or Royals just muddle through any injuries because they have depth and talent at almost every position waiting for an opportunity.

Good intentions with the shields trade but he targeted the wrong guy. At least he recognized they weren't going to be able to compete for the playoffs starting Danks every fifth day (unfortunately the same thing turned out to be true with shields).

[Thad Bosley]

I think they intended to compete but sure didn't spend like it last offseason. I honestly believe even Hahn knew that the signings were destined for failure but he was likely given a hard cap on what he could spend. Do you think Hahn would have settled for guys like Latos, Rollins and Jackson if he was given a larger budget? That's why I have been saying that if they want to compete next year JR has to be willing to increase the payroll. They won't be able to compete otherwise.

Well, he wasn't willing last offseason when we were essentially in the same situation as we will be heading into this offseason. With seemingly the same resources at his disposal as was available last offseason, what changes this time around where you might expect him to increase payroll to the extent necessary to acquire the quantity and quality of additions it would take to turn this lemon of a roster into a legitimate contender?

Edited September 8, 2016 by Thad Bosley

[caulfield12]

The only real argument for "going for it" in 2017 is the additional presence of Tim Anderson (and hoping for no sophomore slump).

 

Of course, in the 2nd half of 2015 it seemed as if Rodon had taken the next step too, and they didn't do much of anything to shore up the back end of the rotation. Everyone for months knew that Erik Johnson was likely to struggle and that the organization appeared to have soured on him. You had the usual concerns about Danks that have been there for the past 3 years or so. Turner was at best, a reclamation project. In the end, they were fortunate to come up with Gonzalez, but that was almost luck and the bottom line is they were resting on their laurels OR simply not willing to commit to spending more on the rotation coming into the season.

 

If you want to lump Burdi and Fulmer in there with Anderson...and Collins in late 2017, you could take that approach...or you could also say there's no reason to rush Burdi and Collins and you need to see if they can develop as a starting pitcher (instead of reliever) and starting catcher (instead of DH), respectively.

Edited September 8, 2016 by caulfield12

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Well, he wasn't willing last offseason when we were essentially in the same situation as we will be heading into this offseason. With seemingly the same resources at his disposal as was available last offseason, what changes this time around where you might expect him to increase payroll to the extent necessary to acquire the quantity and quality of additions it would take to turn this lemon of a roster into a legitimate contender?

I'm hopeful that a greater sense of urgency resulting from an increasingly impatient fan base will be enough for him to increase it $15-20MM higher than it was this year (roughly in line with 2011 levels). It's not saying much but they are on track for their highest season attendance since 2012 so I'm hoping that helps too.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

The only real argument for "going for it" in 2017 is the additional presence of Tim Anderson (and hoping for no sophomore slump).

 

Of course, in the 2nd half of 2015 it seemed as if Rodon had taken the next step too, and they didn't do much of anything to shore up the back end of the rotation. Everyone for months knew that Erik Johnson was likely to struggle and that the organization appeared to have soured on him. You had the usual concerns about Danks that have been there for the past 3 years or so. Turner was at best, a reclamation project. In the end, they were fortunate to come up with Gonzalez, but that was almost luck and the bottom line is they were resting on their laurels OR simply not willing to commit to spending more on the rotation coming into the season.

 

If you want to lump Burdi and Fulmer in there with Anderson...and Collins in late 2017, you could take that approach...or you could also say there's no reason to rush Burdi and Collins and you need to see if they can develop as a starting pitcher (instead of reliever) and starting catcher (instead of DH), respectively.

There's no reason to think Burdi shouldn't start the season with the big league club. He's ready. Based on DA's post from last night, I suspect the White Sox number 1 priority this offseason will be to trade Robertson. That frees up a significant amount of cash and clears the way for Burdi as the presumptive closer (not to start the season but by mid-late season).

 

Also, I see no reason why Collins couldn't contribute to the big league club at some point late next season. He appears to be on the Schwarber plan and I'd expect him to start the season in AA with a promotion as early as June depending upon the state of the big league roster.

Edited September 8, 2016 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[Thad Bosley]

I'm hopeful that a greater sense of urgency resulting from an increasingly impatient fan base will be enough for him to increase it $15-20MM higher than it was this year (roughly in line with 2011 levels). It's not saying much but they are on track for their highest season attendance since 2012 so I'm hoping that helps too.

Same sense of urgency in place one year ago: long playoff drought and impatient fan base. Yet you saw the retooling efforts they expended last offseason. Again, do you really expect anything different from a payroll perspective from the owner? And what's your view if he won't raise the payroll? Then what?