Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana

[caulfield12]

Look, this whole mob mentality about grabbing guys who are down is silly. Just because it doesn't always work, doesn't mean it never works. Miguel Gonzalez is proof of this. The Tigers got JD Martinez this way. Jose Bautista was passed around more times than a cheap hooker. It doesn't mean it is 100%, or fool proof, but you don't just quit a line of potential talent.

 

Yes....DeAza, Quentin, Jenks, Santos, Humber, Crain, etc.

 

They just haven't done it enough or nearly well enough recently. Doesn't mean it's invalid as a strategy just because you're failing to execute.

 

Guys like Trumbo, Segura, Desmond and Fowler were all out there for the taking, particularly the first three. Napoli as well. Insert his numbers instead of Avi, and it makes a big difference with that offense.

 

It's the same way we ended up with Jennings, Putnam and Albers. In the bullpen, they've really had no choice. Kahnle and Ynoa as well. Our own homegrown players haven't gotten the job done, guys like Beck and Danish. Fulmer didn't pitch well enough to make him worth keeping up as reliever, either.

Edited September 9, 2016 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

Is he a LH power bat and better than Avi's career wRC+ of 89? If so, then he is an upgrade and an adequate no. 6 hitter behind Fowler, Eaton, Abreu, Frazier, and Melky.

A guy with a wRC+ of 100 is not an adequate #6 hitter when you only have one elite hitter in your lineup. And you want to commit to this guy as your DH/1B for the next three years? Signing B & C free agents are why we're in this mess in the first place because they have limited room to decline and remain productive players. Look at Melky Cabrera for example, he's dropped off slighty with the bat and suddenly he's a sub 2 WAR player. Mitch Moreland is only a league average hitter today, so doesn't take much of a fall-off for him to become a below a negative overall contributor. He is simply not the answer at DH, no matter how bad Avi has been this year. We need much more significant upgrade at that spot if we're serious about competing next year. Someone like Edwin Encarcion would make sense. Problem is his market will be crazy and we probably don't have the money to get a player like him. Can't keep signing Moreland type free agents and expecting a different result.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

A guy with a wRC+ of 100 is not an adequate #6 hitter when you only have one elite hitter in your lineup. And you want to commit to this guy as your DH/1B for the next three years? Signing B & C free agents are why we're in this mess in the first place because they have limited room to decline and remain productive players. Look at Melky Cabrera for example, he's dropped off slighty with the bat and suddenly he's a sub 2 WAR player. Mitch Moreland is only a league average hitter today, so doesn't take much of a fall-off for him to become a below a negative overall contributor. He is simply not the answer at DH, no matter how bad Avi has been this year. We need much more significant upgrade at that spot if we're serious about competing next year. Someone like Edwin Encarcion would make sense. Problem is his market will be crazy and we probably don't have the money to get a player like him. Can't keep signing Moreland type free agents and expecting a different result.

White Sox don't need a lineup full of elite hitters. They need one elite hitter (Abreu), three good hitters (Eaton, Fowler, Frazier/Melky) combined with a lineup of league average and one or two slightly below average hitters to have an average offense overall. A team with a league average offense and very good pitching and defense absolutely can compete for a playoff spot. They already have very good pitching and with a few tweaks it can be great. They have average defense and with a few tweaks (most notably C and CF) they can have very good defense.

[caulfield12]

A guy with a wRC+ of 100 is not an adequate #6 hitter when you only have one elite hitter in your lineup. And you want to commit to this guy as your DH/1B for the next three years? Signing B & C free agents are why we're in this mess in the first place because they have limited room to decline and remain productive players. Look at Melky Cabrera for example, he's dropped off slighty with the bat and suddenly he's a sub 2 WAR player. Mitch Moreland is only a league average hitter today, so doesn't take much of a fall-off for him to become a below a negative overall contributor. He is simply not the answer at DH, no matter how bad Avi has been this year. We need much more significant upgrade at that spot if we're serious about competing next year. Someone like Edwin Encarcion would make sense. Problem is his market will be crazy and we probably don't have the money to get a player like him. Can't keep signing Moreland type free agents and expecting a different result.

 

The fact that nobody claimed Cabrera on waivers is all you need to know.

 

Puig didn't even make it out of the bottom of NL, with all his warts. He's the definition of a glue or complementary player on a really good team, but he should be your 6th or 7th best hitter, not second or third.

 

And Encarnacion alone won't do more than put you in the proverbial mix for the second wild card. They're not going to shell out $75-80 million for maybe. Especially because it would be the biggest contract in team history at a time where they're more likely to be unloading guys like Cabrera, Frazier and Robertson.

[caulfield12]

White Sox don't need a lineup full of elite hitters. They need one elite hitter (Abreu), three good hitters (Eaton, Fowler, Frazier/Melky) combined with a lineup of league average and one or two slightly below average hitters to have an average offense overall. A team with a league average offense and very good pitching and defense absolutely can compete for a playoff spot. They already have very good pitching and with a few tweaks it can be great. They have average defense and with a few tweaks (most notably C and CF) they can have very good defense.

 

The problem is if you overpay for Fowler and end up with the 2-2.5 war player rather than the 4....he's fallen off quite a bit the last couple of months, isn't close to an elite defender in CF and isn't getting any younger.

 

That 2.5 doesn't get you anywhere...not unless you can boost production at multiple positions.

 

And there's just no way they shell out for both Wieters and Fowler. If there was the will to do that, why didn't it happen last offseason instead of diving into 3rd tier (and beyond) guys?

[Whisox05]

http://www.todaysknuckleball.com/inside-ba...st-two-seasons/

 

The White Sox never put Chris Sale or Jose Quintana through waivers, which shouldn’t be taken as evidence they have no interest in exploring trades for them. There was just no way, with those team-friendly contracts, that they could have made the right deals for them after being claimed. The White Sox will resume exploring trades for their two aces this winter, though as was reported here, their price tag is high and their owner Jerry Reinsdorf, never big on rebuilds, is now 80 and wants to win now or soon. The ChiSox talked the Red Sox, Rangers, Dodgers and others about at least Sale, but sources now say they knew by the last day or two their price of five prime prospects or young players would not be met, and Sale would stay …

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

With Rodon coming into his own, I'm really pumped about what this rotation can do next season. Sale, Q, Rodon form arguably the best 1-3 combo in the league and back it up with Gonzo and hopefully a solid Fulmer and that rotation certainly has the potential to be top 2 or 3 in the league. It's hard to break up a rotation that strong with 4 of the 5 guys under 30 yo still. I'm all in on building around that staff but the front office has their work cut out for them this offseason in order to improve other areas of weakness on the roster.

Really pumped about the emergence of Rodon. Looks better and better each time out. He's looking like an ace in the making and possibly as soon as next season. That rotation is downright nasty if they get that #5 spot tightened up.

[soxforlife05]

Really pumped about the emergence of Rodon. Looks better and better each time out. He's looking like an ace in the making and possibly as soon as next season. That rotation is downright nasty if they get that #5 spot tightened up.

 

He did the exact same thing in the second half last year. Let's see him put together an entire season before we pencil him in as an ace.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

He did the exact same thing in the second half last year. Let's see him put together an entire season before we pencil him in as an ace.

He's even better this year. Walks are way down. He was at 4.59 walks per 9 IP last year while this year he is all the way down to 2.78. Coming into tonight, fWAR of 2.2 probably around 2.4 after tonight's game. Will end the season in the 2.5-3.0 range, which will give him 4.5-5.0 thru his first 2 seasons. Just for reference, Q was at 5.1 thru his first 2 seasons combined. Barring injury, there is no reason to expect anything less than #2/3 numbers from him next season with the potential to put it all together and post ace numbers like Q did in his third season.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Really pumped about the emergence of Rodon. Looks better and better each time out. He's looking like an ace in the making and possibly as soon as next season. That rotation is downright nasty if they get that #5 spot tightened up.

Ha so Sox are hitting, starters are going good .Wouldn't it be sad/funny if the Sox really look as though they could compete next year only to start the major sell off in the off season .

[OmarComing25]

He did the exact same thing in the second half last year. Let's see him put together an entire season before we pencil him in as an ace.

Well not exactly. Even in his good stretch last year he was walking a lot of hitters, and was still essentially a two-pitch pitcher. Now he's flashing an above-average changeup and has considerably cut down on the walks.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Well not exactly. Even in his good stretch last year he was walking a lot of hitters, and was still essentially a two-pitch pitcher. Now he's flashing an above-average changeup and has considerably cut down on the walks.

I'm really liking the addition of the change up. I know he always had it but he seems to be using it a lot more recently. That pitch looks like a difference maker and the kind that can elevate a guy from being a good pitcher to a great pitcher. Very exciting stuff.

[Dam8610]

but sources now say they knew by the last day or two their price of five prime prospects or young players would not be met, and Sale would stay.

 

Well at least they had the price right.

[Dam8610]

but sources now say they knew by the last day or two their price of five prime prospects or young players would not be met, and Sale would stay.

 

Well at least they had the price right.

[SCCWS]

Really pumped about the emergence of Rodon. Looks better and better each time out. He's looking like an ace in the making and possibly as soon as next season. That rotation is downright nasty if they get that #5 spot tightened up.

 

Hopefully he keeps it up and his trade value is enough that the Sox can trade him this winter for a couple of prospects and keep Q and Sale.

 

[Balta1701]

Hopefully he keeps it up and his trade value is enough that the Sox can trade him this winter for a couple of prospects and keep Q and Sale.

Trading Rodon (Under team control for 5 years) for prospects while holding onto guys under team control for 3 and 4 years seems totally backwards.

 

If you're trading Rodon, you want a top flight guy who makes you better right now, while you still have those other 2 guys.

[SCCWS]

Trading Rodon (Under team control for 5 years) for prospects while holding onto guys under team control for 3 and 4 years seems totally backwards.

 

If you're trading Rodon, you want a top flight guy who makes you better right now, while you still have those other 2 guys.

 

Agree. I don't think Sale is really trade-able so you choose between Q who probably gets you 3 pieces in return and Rodon who now may get you 2. You still have other pieces to trade like Roberton, Frazier etc that could add additional young players and prospects. Hopefully the demand for pitching will be over-valued this winter and the Sox have at least 2 very tradeable young pitchers.

[Balta1701]

Agree. I don't think Sale is really trade-able so you choose between Q who probably gets you 3 pieces in return and Rodon who now may get you 2. You still have other pieces to trade like Roberton, Frazier etc that could add additional young players and prospects. Hopefully the demand for pitching will be over-valued this winter and the Sox have at least 2 very tradeable young pitchers.

Again, I don't know why you would trade Quintana and Rodon for prospects while holding Sale. That sets you up to rebuild for 1-2 years and then have Sale walk as a free agent right when your team is getting good.

 

If you want to rebuild - you send Sale and Quintana out to look for guys that will help your team in 2-3 years.

 

If you want to win right now, you look at trading Fulmer and perhaps Rodon to get better right now. This is the only case where it would make sense to trade Rodon - you're willing to give up a future ace because you need another ace right now.

 

Trading Rodon and Quintana for prospects makes holding Sale really odd.

[SCCWS]

Again, I don't know why you would trade Quintana and Rodon for prospects while holding Sale. That sets you up to rebuild for 1-2 years and then have Sale walk as a free agent right when your team is getting good.

 

If you want to rebuild - you send Sale and Quintana out to look for guys that will help your team in 2-3 years.

 

If you want to win right now, you look at trading Fulmer and perhaps Rodon to get better right now. This is the only case where it would make sense to trade Rodon - you're willing to give up a future ace because you need another ace right now.

 

Trading Rodon and Quintana for prospects makes holding Sale really odd.

 

 

You didn't read. I wrote you choose between Q and Rodon not trade both. The question I have is does Rodon have enough value to fill a couple of holes on the roster vs trading Q who fills holes but creates a void as #2 starter.

Edited September 10, 2016 by SCCWS

[caulfield12]

Trading Rodon makes no sense because you're going to replace him with a comparable position player so that just blows another hole in your rotation.

 

And Rodon's value isn't quite so high as to net the same packages you'd get for Sale or Q.

 

You bet that Sale /Q have peaked and Rodon will be at worst a #2 and then it makes some sense as long as you get two future frontline starting pitchers back as well in your trades.

 

 

And pinning our hopes on Edinson Volquez looks more dubious by the week...look at his last couple of months. He's had some decent August starts but sliding backwards as a general trend in the second half.

Edited September 11, 2016 by caulfield12

[Whisox05]

You didn't read. I wrote you choose between Q and Rodon not trade both. The question I have is does Rodon have enough value to fill a couple of holes on the roster vs trading Q who fills holes but creates a void as #2 starter.

 

What balta is trying to say you probably need to move sale before the other two. Trade value is sale, Quintana and rodon. Also the most likely need to be moved is sale cause of his less control time. Rodon hasnt put up consistent numbers of sale or Quintana so his value isnt going to be as high. Tho Rodon will be a need to moved eventually cause hes a boras client and they generally dont sign contract extension before free agency. So keeping rodon and letting him get better and then trading him down the road is more ideal.

Edited September 11, 2016 by WhiteSoxLifer

[Leonard Zelig]

Did we solve the future yet?

We are living in the future.

[Chicago White Sox]

Sale is definitely the guy you move first. Biggest name, best stuff, most dominant, & least control. Someone will give up a haul for him, including several pieces that plug holes immediately. Whether you go for full-blown rebuild (my preference) or partial rebuild (my prediction), moving him is an absolute must.

 

Moving Quintana makes sense in a full-rebuild, but you've got to get fair value for him. I can see a scenario where you move Sale this offseason and Quintana either at the deadline or during the 2017/18 offseason to maximize their markets. It would also buy you some time to see how the prospects you got in trades this offseason are working out and whether or not holding onto Quintana makes sense (unlikely IMO).

 

You definitely do NOT move Rodon right now. His value hasn't come close to peaking and with 5 years of control left, he still has a chance to be part of our next competive core. And if the rebuild takes longer than expected, you move him in a year or two when/if he's established himself as a top of the rotation stater.

[SCCWS]

Sale is definitely the guy you move first. Biggest name, best stuff, most dominant, & least control. Someone will give up a haul for him, including several pieces that plug holes immediately. Whether you go for full-blown rebuild (my preference) or partial rebuild (my prediction), moving him is an absolute must.

 

Moving Quintana makes sense in a full-rebuild, but you've got to get fair value for him. I can see a scenario where you move Sale this offseason and Quintana either at the deadline or during the 2017/18 offseason to maximize their markets. It would also buy you some time to see how the prospects you got in trades this offseason are working out and whether or not holding onto Quintana makes sense (unlikely IMO).

 

You definitely do NOT move Rodon right now. His value hasn't come close to peaking and with 5 years of control left, he still has a chance to be part of our next competive core. And if the rebuild takes longer than expected, you move him in a year or two when/if he's established himself as a top of the rotation stater.

 

But my thinking is different because I say your whole premise is wrong. In the end, I think Sale will not be tradeable. The White Sox want a "haul" for him( which is valid) and I don't see a viable trading partner. We saw Boston was not really close in their discussion at the trade deadline and their 2nd half success makes them even less likely. Dodgers are also doing well and are less apt to tear their system apart. Yankees are going young already and I doubt they are not reversing to go after Sale.

 

Now maybe there is a major event that changes the existing landscape, i.e. Kershaw or Porcello getting a major injury and are out next year. But as things look, I think Sale will be back because the Sox will not find a team willing to deplete a bunch of their young players to get him Now if Hahn reverses and goes for say 2 established players or just 4 prospects that might do it but you lost a lot as well in that type of deal. So I think if you are going to take advantage of the SP market that will be over-valued, the choice are Q who gets you X or Rodon who gets you 60% of X

[Whisox05]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/09/cafa...medium=facebook

 

While the White Sox will listen to teams’ proposals for left-handed ace Chris Sale after the season, a deal seems unlikely. “The odds of getting what we feel we need to get are slim. That’s why I think Chris will be with us in 2017,” a White Sox source told Cafardo. That jibes with an earlier report from FanRag Sports’ Jon Heyman, who relayed that White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf doesn’t want to move Sale

 

So if sale ends up staying will feel bad for him keep pitching in games like today cause someone wont pony up for better offensive players

Edited September 11, 2016 by WhiteSoxLifer