Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

And what, ride off into the sunset of mediocrity until we lose Sale in a few years? Holding onto Sale & Quintana is pointless if you're never going to be able to build a winner around them. Obviously you don't give them away, but their value will never be higher than this offseason and if this magical haul some posters are expecting isn't there, then maybe you need to reset your expectations. There will be enough bidders this offseason to get fair market value for them, whatever that may be. I've said this so many times, but the absolute worst thing this franchise can do is hold onto these guys and end up getting nothing in return and not winning s***. There needs to be a sense of urgency this offseason to either to buy talent around them or to aggressively sell them. Waiting to be overwhelmed is the worst approach for a team in dire need of a clear direction.

100% agreed, but knowing the Sox, they'll wait and wait and nothing will happen.

[southsider2k5]

You personally were in the Guaranteed Rate thread saying how bad of a sign the indifference of larger companies was for this franchise when you look ahead to the next TV contract.

 

I'd say you don't get to be scared of where things are going in that thread and then say how much worse things could be in here, because if things are scary right now...they're scary.

 

I'd say things aren't nearly as black and white as you want to make them out to be.

[elrockinMT]

I also have little interest in trading two all-star pitchers. Pitching is the name of the game. Sale, Quintana and Rodon and add Fulmer and either Shields or Gonzalez and you have a pretty solid group. It's the bullpen that needs help

[southsider2k5]

And what, ride off into the sunset of mediocrity until we lose Sale in a few years? Holding onto Sale & Quintana is pointless if you're never going to be able to build a winner around them. Obviously you don't give them away, but their value will never be higher than this offseason and if this magical haul some posters are expecting isn't there, then maybe you need to reset your expectations. There will be enough bidders this offseason to get fair market value for them, whatever that may be. I've said this so many times, but the absolute worst thing this franchise can do is hold onto these guys and end up getting nothing in return and not winning s***. There needs to be a sense of urgency this offseason to either to buy talent around them or to aggressively sell them. Waiting to be overwhelmed is the worst approach for a team in dire need of a clear direction.

 

f***ing up a rebuild and punting on a decade is an absolutely stupid way to respond to "a clear lack of direction".

[jenksycat]

I also have little interest in trading two all-star pitchers. Pitching is the name of the game. Sale, Quintana and Rodon and add Fulmer and either Shields or Gonzalez and you have a pretty solid group. It's the bullpen that needs help

 

Outside of the bullpen, offense, coaching, scouting, and front office the Sox are in good shape.

[Hatchetman]

No way in hell do I trust these boobs to trade Sale and/or Quintana.

[Balta1701]

f***ing up a rebuild and punting on a decade is an absolutely stupid way to respond to "a clear lack of direction".

Just to stress - this assumes that the people doing the rebuild are terrible at identifying talent and completely fail at their job. Repeatedly.

 

The Astros blew 2 #1 picks and turned one around in 5 years. This management has to be worse than "getting jack squat out of two #1 picks" to pull off your downside.

[LittleHurt05]

f***ing up a rebuild and punting on a decade is an absolutely stupid way to respond to "a clear lack of direction".

 

Two more years and that will be a decade without a playoff appearance. Sounds like they are already punting a decade.

[Chicago White Sox]

We haven't seen anywhere near the worst. We didn't go decades without being over .500.

Wow, it really seems like you're ok being stuck in the MLB version of NBA hell. That's awesome we float right around .500 each year and pretend to be competitive for a few months, but that doesn't change the underlying fact we're never legit playoff contenders. So while other teams pick a clear direction and reap the rewards (playoff runs or huge bonus pools), we remain in a perpetual cycle of mediocrity because we're afraid things can get worse in the short-run.

 

And guess what's going to happen when Sale leaves for nothing in three years? Thinge have to get worse before they can get better, otherwise we're simply delaying the inevitable. How many other teams do you see rebuilding on the fly? That should tell you everything you need to know about how stupid our approach to organzation building is and explain exactly why we're in this version of NBA hell.

[southsider2k5]

Just to stress - this assumes that the people doing the rebuild are terrible at identifying talent and completely fail at their job. Repeatedly.

 

The Astros blew 2 #1 picks and turned one around in 5 years. This management has to be worse than "getting jack squat out of two #1 picks" to pull off your downside.

 

So having them trade their best players for more talent that needs to be developed is their best solution? That is so irrational.

[southsider2k5]

Two more years and that will be a decade without a playoff appearance. Sounds like they are already punting a decade.

 

That would be another decade. We just saw two franchises do exactly that for three.

[southsider2k5]

Wow, it really seems like you're ok being stuck in the MLB version of NBA hell. That's awesome we float right around .500 each year and pretend to be competitive for a few months, but that doesn't change the underlying fact we're never legit playoff contenders. So while other teams pick a clear direction and reap the rewards (playoff runs or huge bonus pools), we remain in a perpetual cycle of mediocrity because we're afraid things can get worse in the short-run.

 

And guess what's going to happen when Sale leaves for nothing in three years? Thinge have to get worse before they can get better, otherwise we're simply delaying the inevitable. How many other teams do you see rebuilding on the fly? That should tell you everything you need to know about how stupid our approach to organzation building is and explain exactly why we're in this version of NBA hell.

 

No. Not at all, but nice assumption. What I am against is doing something stupid, simply to be doing something, and pretending that the state of the team today is actually the worst possible scenario for the franchise. It isn't about things being worse in the short run. It is about them being the worst for the long term.

[Thad Bosley]

We haven't seen anywhere near the worst. We didn't go decades without being over .500.

We kind of have. The 99 games played since the 23-10 start, which is a pretty decent sample size, shows the Sox playing (or losing, depending on how you look at it) at a 2013-esque level. In fact, I don't know if it's still true or not, but somewhere in the last week or so I saw a report that said the Sox had the worst record in baseball since the 23-10 start - and this with not one but two Cy Young candidates in the starting rotation! That in and of itself tells you how awful the rest of the team is at the moment!

Edited September 1, 2016 by Thad Bosley

[southsider2k5]

We kind of have. The 99 games played since the 23-10 start, which is a pretty decent sample size, shows the Sox playing (or losing, depending on how you look at it) at a 2013-esque level. In fact, I don't know if it's still true or not, but somewhere in the last week or so I saw a report that said the Sox had the worst record in baseball since the 23-10 start - and this with not one but two Cy Young candidates in the starting rotation! That in and of itself tells you how awful the rest of the team is at the moment!

 

No. You are talking about a fraction of a season, and this moment. I am not. I am talking about long term awful.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I also have little interest in trading two all-star pitchers. Pitching is the name of the game. Sale, Quintana and Rodon and add Fulmer and either Shields or Gonzalez and you have a pretty solid group. It's the bullpen that needs help

 

 

Even the bullpen has options though. Jones and Jennings are good. Robertson will probably be moved. Petricka and Putnam will be back. Guys like Goldberg and Clark could get a shot from the minors. Ynoa looks like he may be alright. Burdi will also be in the bullpen. I wouldn't spend any $$ on the bullpen. Sox have to develop failed starters as useful bullpen pieces. Paying relievers is about the dumbest thing you can do unless you are doing it for the sole purpose of dealing them at a later date.

[flavum]

We kind of have. The 99 games played since the 23-10 start, which is a pretty decent sample size, shows the Sox playing (or losing, depending on how you look at it) at a 2013-esque level. In fact, I don't know if it's still true or not, but somewhere in the last week or so I saw a report that said the Sox had the worst record in baseball since the 23-10 start - and this with not one but two Cy Young candidates in the starting rotation! That in and of itself tells you how awful the rest of the team is at the moment!

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/games/st...date=2016-05-09

 

Records on the far right since 23-10. Pretty bad.

[Chicago White Sox]

f***ing up a rebuild and punting on a decade is an absolutely stupid way to respond to "a clear lack of direction".

But the game has changed and it's nearly impossible to take that long to rebuild a club if done the right way. The combination of high draft picks and huge bonus pools (amateur & international) gives the worst teams a huge edge in rebuilding. Nothing is obviously fool-proof, but we could have the best system in baseball and a young necleus of talent at the major league level by selling Sale, Quintana, etc. and having three strong draft classes on top of the one we just had. We're in a very unique situation in that we could kick off a rebuild by selling off three of the top 30 assets in baseballs in a huge seller's market. It gives us a headstart no other rebuilding team has had. Again, nothing is fool-proof, but we have a better chance of reaching the playoffs in the next five years with a "blow it up" strategy than another "half ass / go for it" strategy. Unless ownership is willing to spend and the front office can actually execute their offseason plan (both unlikely based on last year), there is really only one choice here. Blow this s*** up and let's start building towards sustainable success.

[Rowand44]

So having them trade their best players for more talent that needs to be developed is their best solution? That is so irrational.

So you don't think Jerry is going to spend an abundance of money because of the fans and trading our best players in a rebuild is irrational so what do YOU want the Sox to do? I don't want to put words in your mouth but it sure seems like you're fine with them sticking on this road that they've been on for a decade now.

[gatnom]

No. You are talking about a fraction of a season, and this moment. I am not. I am talking about long term awful.

 

If you assume bad management, the Sox are doomed whether or not they go for it every year or rebuild.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

So you don't think Jerry is going to spend an abundance of money because of the fans and trading our best players in a rebuild is irrational so what do YOU want the Sox to do? I don't want to put words in your mouth but it sure seems like you're fine with them sticking on this road that they've been on for a decade now.

 

Nope. What I am saying there is if you really feel the team fails in this area, why would you want to put the entire future of the franchise precisely on the thing they do worst?

[southsider2k5]

But the game has changed and it's nearly impossible to take that long to rebuild a club if done the right way. The combination of high draft picks and huge bonus pools (amateur & international) gives the worst teams a huge edge in rebuilding. Nothing is obviously fool-proof, but we could have the best system in baseball and a young necleus of talent at the major league level by selling Sale, Quintana, etc. and having three strong draft classes on top of the one we just had. We're in a very unique situation in that we could kick off a rebuild by selling off three of the top 30 assets in baseballs in a huge seller's market. It gives us a headstart no other rebuilding team has had. Again, nothing is fool-proof, but we have a better chance of reaching the playoffs in the next five years with a "blow it up" strategy than another "half ass / go for it" strategy. Unless ownership is willing to spend and the front office can actually execute their offseason plan (both unlikely based on last year), there is really only one choice here. Blow this s*** up and let's start building towards sustainable success.

 

 

This is the key here. This is a big assumption being made. Do you have confidence in that? I don't.

[bmags]

I have 100% confidence that if we assume our budget can increase by no more than say, $130 million, we will make the playoffs faster selling Chris Sale and Nate Jones than if we kept our current roster and tried to wait for our current farm, trades and FA to get us there.

 

For all the talk about how boston wasn't close in their proposed Q offer, I'm pretty sure we'll look back in 3 years and say "OMG we could have had Benintendi, Kopech and others!"

[southsider2k5]

I have 100% confidence that if we assume our budget can increase by no more than say, $130 million, we will make the playoffs faster selling Chris Sale and Nate Jones than if we kept our current roster and tried to wait for our current farm, trades and FA to get us there.

 

For all the talk about how boston wasn't close in their proposed Q offer, I'm pretty sure we'll look back in 3 years and say "OMG we could have had Benintendi, Kopech and others!"

 

While there are certainly exceptions, I feel like it is way more often we look back and rejoice that we didn't make deals like this.

[Balta1701]

This is the key here. This is a big assumption being made. Do you have confidence in that? I don't.

Ok, let's follow this logic.

 

Let's assume that management is terrible and will continue making terrible decisions. The only way for this team to become a playoff team, therefore, will be by accident - things that were stupid decisions will need to wind up working out.

 

In that case, can you provide a convincing argument why "all in every year" and putting the 3rd or 4th best roster in the division on the field every year has a better chance of providing the accidental playoff team than a decade long rebuilding?

 

I will totally grant that it is possible to put the 3rd or 4th best roster in the division on the field and eventually, once every 10 or 20 years of doing that, you will win the division. But unless you can present an argument why the odds of success are higher by fielding a mid-level team every year, that's the same timescale you've argued it would take for this terrible management to pull off a rebuild.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Why is everyone in such a hurry to trade Q and Sale? Is it because you fear they will get injured next season? I see nothing wrong with "going for it" again next year and if it doesn't work out unloading one or both at the end of the year as well as guys like Frazier and Melky at the deadline if they are already out of the race by then.