Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana

[caulfield12]

Moreland is going to be taken out of one of the top 2-3 offenses in baseball...and also yet another player who will be on the wrong side of 30 (turns 31 this week).

 

I would guess the production will be similar to Morneau or Morales but he will also cost in the $5-10 million range. It's another of those MEH moves where everything has to go right but you're just as likely to end up with a guy in the mid 750's at DH.

 

Better than Avi again, clearly, but it's not going to be nearly enough without major improvements at catcher, CF, etc., which will be even more costly. With Wieters, you're dealing with Boras...which is fine if Boras views Matt the same way as Austin Jackson, but catchers are much more in demand than 1B/DH types. There are twenty plus teams that would like to upgrade at that position somehow.

Edited September 5, 2016 by caulfield12

[Chicago White Sox]

That's a very dramatic post but still doesn't change my stance that signing a few players this offseason and seeing if it comes together during the first half of 2017 is a good approach. If they are out of the race next July then sure tear it up. The Sox aren't losing any players of value this offseason and guys like Melky and Robertson might both be MORE valuable next July then they were this year or this offseason since they will have less money remaining on their contracts. I see no reason to be in a big rush here.

 

This starting staff is going to be really great next season with the emergence of Rodon and Fulmer and possible addition of a capable #5 starter. Fill the holes in CF, C, and DH and see what happens. Players like Moreland and Wieters are not dumpster dives like Rollins, Latos, Avila, etc. but they will require JR to open the pocketbook a bit wider since they are another tier up.

What happens if Sale goes down with an injury? I'd argue no franchise has more of their overall value tied up into one player than the Sox with Chris. If he gets injured next season, not only do your chances of competing in 2017 go out the window, but you're ability to turn him into assets with significant future value could be all but gone. And the damage that would do this franchise would be beyond catastrophic. Many posters here are scared of a rebuild in general, imagine what that would be like if we start it off by getting nothing of value for Sale.

 

Sure, if they're going to fill all their holes with actual impact talent, then it's a risk I'm willing to take. But if we're talking about more dumpster diving or C-level free agents, then let's get started with the rebuild this franchise desperately needs instead of needing everything to go right to even sniff the playoffs.

[nitetrain8601]

If you wanna compete, you can make 1 or 2 dumpster dive moves. The White Sox would be depending on much more than that which is a recipe for disaster. IMO, Abreu, Eaton, Frazier and Anderson are the only good everyday players we have. Anderson has the best chance at being a dynamic player (think Kris Bryant or Anthony Rizzo as examples of dynamic players). Frazier has great power. Abreu is a good overall player but they need a lot more. Dumpster diving is not the way to accomplish filling out that many roster spots.

 

I simply don't see how they fix this squad until they deal everyone away or decide to have a 200 mil payroll.

Edited September 5, 2016 by nitetrain8601

[Thad Bosley]

That's a very dramatic post but still doesn't change my stance that signing a few players this offseason and seeing if it comes together during the first half of 2017 is a good approach. If they are out of the race next July then sure tear it up. The Sox aren't losing any players of value this offseason and guys like Melky and Robertson might both be MORE valuable next July then they were this year or this offseason since they will have less money remaining on their contracts. I see no reason to be in a big rush here.

 

This starting staff is going to be really great next season with the emergence of Rodon and Fulmer and possible addition of a capable #5 starter. Fill the holes in CF, C, and DH and see what happens. Players like Moreland and Wieters are not dumpster dives like Rollins, Latos, Avila, etc. but they will require JR to open the pocketbook a bit wider since they are another tier up.

I guess the eight year playoff drought doesn't bother you.

[Chicago White Sox]

If you wanna compete, you can make 1 or 2 dumpster dive moves. The White Sox would be depending on much more than that which is a recipe for disaster. IMO, Abreu, Eaton, Frazier and Anderson are the only good everyday players we have. Anderson has the best chance at being a dynamic player (think Kris Bryant or Anthony Rizzo as examples of dynamic players). Frazier has great power. Abreu is a good overall player but they need a lot more. Dumpster diving is not the way to accomplish filling out that many roster spots.

 

I simply don't see how they fix this squad until they deal everyone away or decide to have a 200 mil payroll.

The Sox can compete next year if Abreu & Frazier both bounce back (~3 WAR players) and they fill their holes in CF, DH/1B, & C with good to great players. I'm talking about signing Encarnacion & Ramos and trading for a guy like Charlie Blackmon. Do all three and you suddenly have a team with enough talent to withstand the grind of a 162 game season. Do much less, and you're relying on above-average luck and health to be competive.

 

The two questions though are if adding all three of those pieces is even possible and whether or not it's the right long term answer. Signing those free agents will cost one and possibly two picks and our 1st rounder is not protected. Plus you'll have to beat numerous other suitors in a weak market and lock up significant payroll flexibility into guys on the wrong side of 30 (Ramos turns 30 next August) without superstar appeal and likely put yourself out of commission for the epic 2018/19 free agent class. And god only knows if we have the chips to get a guy like Blackmon without dipping into your 2016 draft class. Fulmer would probably have to be included in any package and then you're hurting your starting pitching depth and quite possibly dealing your #5 starter, which creates another hole.

 

So long story short, adding the pieces necessary to compete is going to be costly and basically would require you going "all in" for Sale's remaining three years. And that's only possible if Reindsdorf is willing to open the checkbook and the front office can execute their plan, both which didn't happen last offseason in a buyer's market. I just don't see it happening, and fully expect more dumpster diving if they in fact go for it.

[SCCWS]

I guess the eight year playoff drought doesn't bother you.

 

Worse, would add that despite an 8 year drought, the system is not loaded with young talent on their way up.

 

[caulfield12]

The Sox can compete next year if Abreu & Frazier both bounce back (~3 WAR players) and they fill their holes in CF, DH/1B, & C with good to great players. I'm talking about signing Encarnacion & Ramos and trading for a guy like Charlie Blackmon. Do all three and you suddenly have a team with enough talent to withstand the grind of a 162 game season. Do much less, and you're relying on above-average luck and health to be competive.

 

The two questions though are if adding all three of those pieces is even possible and whether or not it's the right long term answer. Signing those free agents will cost one and possibly two picks and our 1st rounder is not protected. Plus you'll have to beat numerous other suitors in a weak market and lock up significant payroll flexibility into guys on the wrong side of 30 (Ramos turns 30 next August) without superstar appeal and likely put yourself out of commission for the epic 2018/19 free agent class. And god only knows if we have the chips to get a guy like Blackmon without dipping into your 2016 draft class. Fulmer would probably have to be included in any package and then you're hurting your starting pitching depth and quite possibly dealing your #5 starter, which creates another hole.

 

So long story short, adding the pieces necessary to compete is going to be costly and basically would require you going "all in" for Sale's remaining three years. And that's only possible if Reindsdorf is willing to open the checkbook and the front office can execute their plan, both which didn't happen last offseason in a buyer's market. I just don't see it happening, and fully expect more dumpster diving if they in fact go for it.

 

Not to mention $125-150 million in additional payroll...and I honestly believe Fulmer is much more likely to be turned into CarGo and his high salary, not Blackmon and his youth, relative value and better WAR/defense.

 

And then the issue of losing a first and second round draft pick. Don't see how you can justify that after refusing to part with the #26 pick this year unless we signed either Gordon or Fowler (who's tailing off now quite a bit).

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

I guess the eight year playoff drought doesn't bother you.

And obviously you aren't willing to wait another 4 months of next season to start the rebuild. I am. I'd like to see it played out before unloading all of our major league pieces of value. Clearly many here think the White Sox have no chance to compete for a playoff spot next year with 3 or 4 acquisitions this offseason but I do. I don't think they are as far away as many here are portraying. There is so much parity in the AL and in the Central even with the way the Indians are playing that I believe plugging the gaping holes in this 25 man roster will result in a much better and more balanced team. It wouldn't take a star player to get much more production out of C, DH, CF, and 5th starter. Bullpens are funny too - add Burdi, return Putnam and Petricka, and pick up another arm and that will look like a completely revamped pen. Again, if they are out of it next July, sell the pieces then when they are arguably even more valuable than during the offseason.

[captain54]

And obviously you aren't willing to wait another 4 months of next season to start the rebuild. I am. I'd like to see it played out before unloading all of our major league pieces of value. Clearly many here think the White Sox have no chance to compete for a playoff spot next year with 3 or 4 acquisitions this offseason but I do. I don't think they are as far away as many here are portraying. There is so much parity in the AL and in the Central even with the way the Indians are playing that I believe plugging the gaping holes in this 25 man roster will result in a much better and more balanced team. It wouldn't take a star player to get much more production out of C, DH, CF, and 5th starter. Bullpens are funny too - add Burdi, return Putnam and Petricka, and pick up another arm and that will look like a completely revamped pen. Again, if they are out of it next July, sell the pieces then when they are arguably even more valuable than during the offseason.

 

Your hypothesis has more holes than a 76-77 throwback jersey after Chris Sale got his hands on it

 

With a limited payroll, weak FA buyers class upcoming, and not a lot of real strong prospects,to get anything of serious value ..what voodoo is the Sox FO going to perform by holding on to anything of real value, and still yet catapult themselves to an AL Central contender by opening day 2017? How do you see them acquiring these 3 or 4 acquisitions you speak of?

 

With every passing opening day, you are closer to the Crown Jewels of the Franchise. Sale and Quintana ..being closer to the day they will no longer be cost controlled.

[SCCWS]

And obviously you aren't willing to wait another 4 months of next season to start the rebuild. I am. I'd like to see it played out before unloading all of our major league pieces of value. Clearly many here think the White Sox have no chance to compete for a playoff spot next year with 3 or 4 acquisitions this offseason but I do. I don't think they are as far away as many here are portraying. There is so much parity in the AL and in the Central even with the way the Indians are playing that I believe plugging the gaping holes in this 25 man roster will result in a much better and more balanced team. It wouldn't take a star player to get much more production out of C, DH, CF, and 5th starter. Bullpens are funny too - add Burdi, return Putnam and Petricka, and pick up another arm and that will look like a completely revamped pen. Again, if they are out of it next July, sell the pieces then when they are arguably even more valuable than during the offseason.

 

A couple of thoughts. What are you trading to get a C or CF because you are not getting them out of free agency?? We saw last season that Jackson was the best this FO was willing to spend on. We also saw what they got for C. Then, if they are struggling next July, it probably means that some of the pieces you would unload are worth less than they were this trade deadline or off-season.

 

I think your idea works only if you are getting rid of Williams and Hahn. Then it would make sense to let the new GM decide what direction he wants to go w the current roster. I say Williams and Hahn but the first person that needs to go is the scout that suggested they trade for Shields.

[Dick Allen]

A couple of thoughts. What are you trading to get a C or CF because you are not getting them out of free agency?? We saw last season that Jackson was the best this FO was willing to spend on. We also saw what they got for C. Then, if they are struggling next July, it probably means that some of the pieces you would unload are worth less than they were this trade deadline or off-season.

 

I think your idea works only if you are getting rid of Williams and Hahn. Then it would make sense to let the new GM decide what direction he wants to go w the current roster. I say Williams and Hahn but the first person that needs to go is the scout that suggested they trade for Shields.

So why would these guys be the guys to tear it all down and start over?

 

Seems that is a bigger disaster waiting to happen than adding middling players hoping it all works out. At least they have Sale and Quintana.

 

Quintana is going on the White Sox cruise in November, so it doesn't appear the Sox think they will trade him. I am going to a season ticket holder event with Hahn tomorrow. I will report if he gives us anything.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Dick Allen

[SCCWS]

So why would these guys be the guys to tear it all down and start over?

 

Seems that is a bigger disaster waiting to happen than adding middling players hoping it all works out. At least they have Sale and Quintana.

 

Quintana is going on the White Sox cruise in November, so it doesn't appear the Sox think they will trade him. I am going to a season ticket holder event with Hahn tomorrow. I will report if he gives us anything.

 

Not sure you read his post. His theory is to wait until next July and if the team is still struggling blow it up. He thinks the trade pieces will be worth more next July. Meanwhile go out this winter and get a C, CF, 5th starter and DH. I asked how will you acquire the first two w/o trading since it didn't work last winter. I also don't agree guys like Eaton, Frazier and Melky will be more valuable next July than they will be this off-season. Melky is having a better than career year for example.

Edited September 6, 2016 by SCCWS

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Not sure you read his post. His theory is to wait until next July and if the team is still struggling blow it up. He thinks the trade pieces will be worth more next July. Meanwhile go out this winter and get a C, CF, 5th starter and DH. I asked how will you acquire the first two w/o trading since it didn't work last winter. I also don't agree guys like Eaton, Frazier and Melky will be more valuable next July than they will be this off-season. Melky is having a better than career year for example.

Teams tend to get more desperate at the deadline and many teams actually prefer guys like Cabrera and Frazier on expiring contracts since they aren't committed beyond that season. That's why I think those guys may actually be more valuable next July. It's not like Melky, Robertson, Frazier are having career years.

 

I already said I'd sign Wieters to fill starting catcher and Fowler to fill CF. If the Sox end up with an unprotected first round pick and Fowler receives a QO I may be more inclined to sign Reddick rather than Fowler. Both would provide a nice upgrade in the outfield. I prefer Fowler though because of his ability to play CF. Hopefully the Sox end up moving up a slot from their current position at #11 to #10.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Your hypothesis has more holes than a 76-77 throwback jersey after Chris Sale got his hands on it

 

With a limited payroll, weak FA buyers class upcoming, and not a lot of real strong prospects,to get anything of serious value ..what voodoo is the Sox FO going to perform by holding on to anything of real value, and still yet catapult themselves to an AL Central contender by opening day 2017? How do you see them acquiring these 3 or 4 acquisitions you speak of?

 

With every passing opening day, you are closer to the Crown Jewels of the Franchise. Sale and Quintana ..being closer to the day they will no longer be cost controlled.

Fowler - CF

Eaton - RF

Abreu - 1B

Frazier - 3B

Melky - LF

Moreland or Alvarez (whoever is cheaper) - DH

Wieters - C

Lawrie/Saladino - 2B

Anderson - SS

 

Sale, Q, Rodon, Gonzalez, Fulmer/Volquez

 

That team should absolutely compete for a playoff spot next year IMO. Wouldn't take a drastic payroll increase either.

[southsider2k5]

Teams tend to get more desperate at the deadline and many teams actually prefer guys like Cabrera and Frazier on expiring contracts since they aren't committed beyond that season. That's why I think those guys may actually be more valuable next July. It's not like Melky, Robertson, Frazier are having career years.

 

I already said I'd sign Wieters to fill starting catcher and Fowler to fill CF. If the Sox end up with an unprotected first round pick and Fowler receives a QO I may be more inclined to sign Reddick rather than Fowler. Both would provide a nice upgrade in the outfield. I prefer Fowler though because of his ability to play CF. Hopefully the Sox end up moving up a slot from their current position at #11 to #10.

 

Teams also won't deal major leaguers at the deadline.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Teams also won't deal major leaguers at the deadline.

Generally that's true but not always. Regardless, I think most here are in favor of dealing major league talent for prospects, which will still be an option come July.

[captain54]

Fowler - CF

Eaton - RF

Abreu - 1B

Frazier - 3B

Melky - LF

Moreland or Alvarez (whoever is cheaper) - DH

Wieters - C

Lawrie/Saladino - 2B

Anderson - SS

 

Sale, Q, Rodon, Gonzalez, Fulmer/Volquez

 

That team should absolutely compete for a playoff spot next year IMO. Wouldn't take a drastic payroll increase either.

 

Your standard Chicago White Sox All In Plan for (insert year) 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017

 

Kind of comforting to have it back for 17', like a warm and fuzzy old friend.

 

This brings to mind something I heard from an old Mexican gent. Or maybe it was Minnie Minoso at SoxFest ..can't recall

 

"Oscillation con los ojos vendados a una piñata con el tiempo te dispara"

 

Roughly Translated

 

"If you take enough blindfolded swings at a piñata, you never know. You could actually hit it"

Edited September 6, 2016 by captain54

[Lip Man 1]

That's a very dramatic post but still doesn't change my stance that signing a few players this offseason and seeing if it comes together during the first half of 2017 is a good approach. If they are out of the race next July then sure tear it up. The Sox aren't losing any players of value this offseason and guys like Melky and Robertson might both be MORE valuable next July then they were this year or this offseason since they will have less money remaining on their contracts. I see no reason to be in a big rush here.

 

This starting staff is going to be really great next season with the emergence of Rodon and Fulmer and possible addition of a capable #5 starter. Fill the holes in CF, C, and DH and see what happens. Players like Moreland and Wieters are not dumpster dives like Rollins, Latos, Avila, etc. but they will require JR to open the pocketbook a bit wider since they are another tier up.

 

It's a crap shoot to be sure. The risk you run of course by not trading your most valuable trading pieces over the winter is if they get hurt, their value is practically zero.

 

As I've said often there are no easy answers or solutions to stop the culture of losing that has hit this franchise.

 

Mark

 

[Thad Bosley]

So why would these guys be the guys to tear it all down and start over?

 

Seems that is a bigger disaster waiting to happen than adding middling players hoping it all works out. At least they have Sale and Quintana.

 

Quintana is going on the White Sox cruise in November, so it doesn't appear the Sox think they will trade him. I am going to a season ticket holder event with Hahn tomorrow. I will report if he gives us anything.

On the contrary. We've seen them try their hand at "adding middling players hoping it all works out", and it's been a complete disaster. For their efforts on that alone both Hahn and Williams should be shown to the curb, but we know that's not going to happen anytime soon with the way the octogenarian owner is running things these days.

 

What we actually don't know is how Kenny Hahn might handle a "tear it all down and start over" operation. We've never seen them try. Perhaps that's more in their wheelhouse. So as long as we're stuck with them, why not let them have a go at that and see how it goes. Best case scenario they take us from "Point A to Point B", a la Larry Himes from many a moon ago, and then the owner can repeat his own history and bring in someone to get the team to "Point C".

 

Worst case scenario is Kenny Hahn proves to be equally bad at the total rebuild business, at which time Reinsdorf will be ready to sell and then the fan base gets the total clean slate it probably needs in the first place.

[Chicago White Sox]

Fowler - CF

Eaton - RF

Abreu - 1B

Frazier - 3B

Melky - LF

Moreland or Alvarez (whoever is cheaper) - DH

Wieters - C

Lawrie/Saladino - 2B

Anderson - SS

 

Sale, Q, Rodon, Gonzalez, Fulmer/Volquez

 

That team should absolutely compete for a playoff spot next year IMO. Wouldn't take a drastic payroll increase either.

Fowler would be a legit upgrade in CF, but Moreland would only be a small one at DH/1B and Wieters doesn't seem to be much of an upgrade at all at C. That's not nearly enough improvement to make us serious contenders and will cost us a 1st round pick to boot. Not to be a dick, but that's a half-ass offseason plan if I've ever seen one, which is exactly what we need to avoid. Either go big or blow this s*** up. Can't keep being stuck in the middle.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Chicago White Sox

[caulfield12]

It would be pretty difficult to go through the free agent (or cheaply available) list RIGHT NOW and put together a winning team.

 

Maybe if you picked Fowler/Desmond and traded for Segura and Trumbo (this past off-season), you'd arguably be close to first place..

 

But no GM has the ability to peer into a crystal ball and divine the future. Essentially, it would take like three moves working out perfectly out of four, and you'd still have some issues in the rotation and bullpen to address, but that offense would have made up for a lot of mistakes.

 

But when you're hitting on less than 1/3rd of your free agency moves, it's a recipe for disaster.

 

 

 

Finally, someone said Melky Cabrera isn't at peak value right now (that he could still be better in 2017)...I would respectfully disagree with that one.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/1c57a34e-54d6-...ked-before.html

Rebuilding Has Worked Before for the Sox...Paul Sullivan article

Edited September 6, 2016 by caulfield12

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

Fowler would be a legit upgrade in CF, but Moreland would only be a small one at DH/1B and Wieters doesn't seem to be much of an upgrade at all at C. That's not nearly enough improvement to make us serious contenders and will cost us a 1st round pick to boot. Not to be a dick, but that's a half-ass offseason plan if I've ever seen one, which is exactly what we need to avoid. Either go big or blow this s*** up. Can't keep being stuck in the middle.

Considering Dionner Navarro and his negative WAR was our starting catcher for most of the year, Wieters would represent a significant upgrade. Also, Fulmer/Volquez should represent a HUGE upgrade at fifth starter. Consider the fact that the White Sox are 7-19 in games started by Shields, Danks, and Ranaudo (with an ERA around 8). For the sake of discussion I'm going to call that three headed monster the "fifth starter." Wouldn't even need a stud filling that spot but league average and this team is 5 or 6 wins better. I also expect the bullpen to be much better next year which I think can account for another 3-4 wins. Really not asking for much here and that's a ~10 win improvement if everything else stays the same.

[Thad Bosley]

Considering Dionner Navarro and his negative WAR was our starting catcher for most of the year, Wieters would represent a significant upgrade. Also, Fulmer/Volquez should represent a HUGE upgrade at fifth starter. Consider the fact that the White Sox are 7-19 in games started by Shields, Danks, and Ranaudo (with an ERA around 8). For the sake of discussion I'm going to call that three headed monster the "fifth starter." Wouldn't even need a stud filling that spot but league average and this team is 5 or 6 wins better. I also expect the bullpen to be much better next year which I think can account for another 3-4 wins. Really not asking for much here and that's a ~10 win improvement if everything else stays the same.

So Wieters and his .683 OPS, Volquez with his 1.47 WHIP, and some magical 3-4 game improvement by the existing cast in the bullpen will be what turns this 76 win team into an 86 win team? Ok, if that's the direction you'd like the team to go in. Meanwhile, some of the rest of us prefer a cease-and-desist on launching another failed retooling exercise and instead move in the direction of trying to successfully execute a full rebuild. It's time.

[southsider2k5]

Generally that's true but not always. Regardless, I think most here are in favor of dealing major league talent for prospects, which will still be an option come July.

 

Sure. But listening to what comes out of our front office, that isn't really reality. I think our best chance of one of our front line pitchers getting dealt is if we get a young star hitter position player back in the deal. Go back and look at who we asked about at the deadline... Jackie Bradley, Odor... Those kind of deals can get closed in the winter. It is probably also an easier deal to sell to JR, as they look to have a closer ending date.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

So Wieters and his .683 OPS, Volquez with his 1.47 WHIP, and some magical 3-4 game improvement by the existing cast in the bullpen will be what turns this 76 win team into an 86 win team? Ok, if that's the direction you'd like the team to go in. Meanwhile, some of the rest of us prefer a cease-and-desist on launching another failed retooling exercise and instead move in the direction of trying to successfully execute a full rebuild. It's time.

Wieters would be a significant upgrade over Navarro and Volquez would be a significant upgrade over Danks/Shields/Ranaudo. Did I ever say they are all star caliber? No, well I suppose Wieters did make it this year due to a strong first half. I'm not asking for all star performance out of those guys but even serviceable would be a vast improvement over the black holes we have had at those two spots this season. And yes, with the addition of Burdi, Putnam, Petricka, and possibly one other arm via trade or free agency I expect the bullpen to be much better next year. It also helps when your fifth starter doesn't completely destroy your bullpen every 5 days, this aspect cannot be understated.

Edited September 6, 2016 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE