2017 Lineup

[chetkincaid]

They do not have the resources to get that hitter. He definitely does not exist in FA, and they don't have the pieces to acquire him in a trade. Your best hope is that Collins turns into that player.

 

If that's the case, then torch the team and trade everybody not named Tim Anderson or Carlos Rodon.

[GreatScott82]

If the Sox were to acquire Billy Butler, to be their DH, I think that might be the last straw for me. How would Butler do anything to fix this pathetic offense? They need one really good hitter, with a high OBP, legitimate power, and preferably left handed. You insert that guy into the top 2/3 of our current line up and you have suddenly transformed an inept lineup, to a dangerous, effective run scoring offense. Billy Butler is not that guy:

 

Eaton

Anderson

Melky

Abreu

New DH (preferably Left Handed)

Frazier

 

That line up would be more than adequate, with the right DH. The problem is that no one seems to know who might fill that hole, or how to acquire him.

It would be ideal if there were a player in the last year of his contract, playing for a new lucrative deal in 2018. He might be affordable, available and highly motivated.

Then we could let him walk, with or without a qualifiying offer, at the end of the year.

Signing Butler definitely seems like a white sox move. I have zero faith in this organization at the moment. I mean what is their plan? Are they still on this oddball phantom '3 year plan'? Because 2/3rds of it have been a complete nightmare. What is the point of letting Robin play out the contract? Apparently they have zero faith in Renteria as well? I hate to say it, Mr. Riensdorf-- there is no chance in hell this team wins a championship next season. (Not to get all Vince McMahon on you but, enough is enough!) The free agent pool is not good at all. The farm system is in very poor shape. Yet, they refuse to trade their hottest chips to fill multiple needs. Can someone please tell me how the hell this team is a contender in 2017?

[WBWSF]

It would be easy to contend in 2017. Keep the starting pitching the team has now and then sign Wilson Ramos from the Nationals and Cespedes from the Mets this off season. Cespedes MIGHT leave New York. By signing these 2 players it would solve alot of our problems. I've always been very good at telling other people how to spend their money. I'm hoping that JR signs these 2 players.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

If the Sox were to acquire Billy Butler, to be their DH, I think that might be the last straw for me. How would Butler do anything to fix this pathetic offense? They need one really good hitter, with a high OBP, legitimate power, and preferably left handed. You insert that guy into the top 2/3 of our current line up and you have suddenly transformed an inept lineup, to a dangerous, effective run scoring offense. Billy Butler is not that guy:

 

Eaton

Anderson

Melky

Abreu

New DH (preferably Left Handed)

Frazier

 

That line up would be more than adequate, with the right DH. The problem is that no one seems to know who might fill that hole, or how to acquire him.

It would be ideal if there were a player in the last year of his contract, playing for a new lucrative deal in 2018. He might be affordable, available and highly motivated.

Then we could let him walk, with or without a qualifiying offer, at the end of the year.

They do not have the resources to get that hitter. He definitely does not exist in FA, and they don't have the pieces to acquire him in a trade. Your best hope is that Collins turns into that player.

Justin Morneau.

 

 

[Lip Man 1]

Justin Morneau.

 

If he wants to keep playing, he's said retirement is a consideration right now.

 

Mark

[ChiSox59]

I have come to the realization that the Sox will probably trade off a bunch of their guys this offseason, but I will put together my pie in the sky lineup anyway.

 

Eaton - TG

Anderson - SS

Yoenis Cespedes - LF (3 years; $82M - $22/$30/$30 with opt out after year 1)

Abreu - 1B

Frazier - 3B

Cabrera - DH

Wilson Ramos - C (4 years; $65M)

Carlos Gomez - CF (1 year; $7M)

Lawrie - 2B

 

Rotation:

Sale

Quintana

Rodon

Fulmer

Gonzalez

 

BN:

Saladino - Super sub

Tilson - OF

Narvaez - C

Leury Garcia - Super Sub

 

Bullpen:

David Robertson

Nate Jones

Jake Petricka

Zach Putnam

Dan Jennings

Zack Burdi

Some LHP

 

 

 

[sin city sox fan]

I like the nucleus as long as there's a managerial change. I'm not convinced that Robin will be gone (as he would have been long gone with any other organization) and can't have optimism til that happens. If he's here, you might as well rebuild. If Ozzie's coming back, it's world series for sure in 2017.

[soxforlife05]

I'd rather take a chance on Puig than Carlos Gomez.

 

The other option besides Puig/Gomez is to re-sign Morneau for DH, play Melky in LF and Cespedes in CF.

 

Leury Garcia - as long as he only sees pinch running duty.

 

Some LHP could've been Duke lol - not sure why we traded him. To fill the last bullpen spot we need a long man who can spot start or fill in as a #5.

 

Fulmer in the rotation is iffy. We don't need him to be great though. If Gonzalez regresses we will have the same problems in the back end but hopefully the lineup is improved enough that we make the playoffs.

Edited September 12, 2016 by soxforlife05

[greg775]

If he wants to keep playing, he's said retirement is a consideration right now.

 

Mark

I hope he decides to play for the Sox. What'll he get? About 3.5 mill a year? Kind of like Francouer deals?

 

I like the nucleus as long as there's a managerial change. I'm not convinced that Robin will be gone (as he would have been long gone with any other organization) and can't have optimism til that happens. If he's here, you might as well rebuild. If Ozzie's coming back, it's world series for sure in 2017.

I'm not convincec they will axe Robin either. I think his performance vs. the Central Division is a fireable offense, though, and that will be the reason the Sox give Robin and the media he had to go. Not sure Renteria will do any better. If it's Buddy Bell back in the dugout I may finally give up my Sox fandom. Bell is that bad.

Edited September 12, 2016 by greg775

[TheTruth05]

Don't burn me at the stake here but if the Sox decide to go for it one more time how many people would be for going all in and trading for Votto?

He has a mean slash line since the All Star break and plays a really good 1B, would supplant Abreu there and give u a middle of the order LH Bat.

That coupled with a Tilson/Gomez wouldn't be bad.

 

Eaton RF

Anderson SS

Abreu DH

Votto 1B

Melky LF

Frazier 3B

Gomez CF

Avila/Narvaez C

Saladino 2B

 

That coupled with a 5th starter signing/acquisition really gives us a solid squad IMO.

Edited September 13, 2016 by TheTruth05

[caulfield12]

Don't burn me at the stake here but if the Sox decide to go for it one more time how many people would be for going all in and trading for Votto?

He has a mean slash line since the All Star break and plays a really good 1B, would supplant Abreu there and give u a middle of the order LH Bat.

That coupled with a Tilson/Gomez wouldn't be bad.

 

Eaton RF

Anderson SS

Abreu DH

Votto 1B

Melky LF

Frazier 3B

Gomez CF

Avila/Narvaez C

Saladino 2B

 

That coupled with a 5th starter signing/acquisition really gives us a solid squad IMO.

 

It would take a lot more than Fulmer to pry Votto loose...don't see an attractive enough package coming from the Sox side of things. 3 months ago, sure, but Votto's value has been restored fully again.

[TheTruth05]

It would take a lot more than Fulmer to pry Votto loose...don't see an attractive enough package coming from the Sox side of things. 3 months ago, sure, but Votto's value has been restored fully again.

 

He's going to be 33 next year with $192 mil owed until 2024, I don't see many teams wanting to trade for that unless it's the Yankees (rebuild of sorts), Boston (set with the young bats) Cubs (Rizzo is there and almost as good). The Dodgers might be the only competitor given Gonzalez is getting up there in age as well. I could see the Sox be savvy and include a 3rd team maybe. Although if they will go all in they're gonna have to trade from the little they do have.

[caulfield12]

He's going to be 33 next year with $192 mil owed until 2024, I don't see many teams wanting to trade for that unless it's the Yankees (rebuild of sorts), Boston (set with the young bats) Cubs (Rizzo is there and almost as good). The Dodgers might be the only competitor given Gonzalez is getting up there in age as well. I could see the Sox be savvy and include a 3rd team maybe. Although if they will go all in they're gonna have to trade from the little they do have.

 

A contract of nealy three times the largest in club history for a 32-33 year old is just not going to happen...forgetting about the talent going from the Sox side being satisfactory or not.

[southsider2k5]

He's going to be 33 next year with $192 mil owed until 2024, I don't see many teams wanting to trade for that unless it's the Yankees (rebuild of sorts), Boston (set with the young bats) Cubs (Rizzo is there and almost as good). The Dodgers might be the only competitor given Gonzalez is getting up there in age as well. I could see the Sox be savvy and include a 3rd team maybe. Although if they will go all in they're gonna have to trade from the little they do have.

 

Cincy is going to have to eat money if they want to get anything back for Votto.

[TheTruth05]

Cincy is going to have to eat money if they want to get anything back for Votto.

 

Which is why I think it's possible if Cincy eats some money and Sox send Fulmer+. We all talk about them wanting to pick a direction, if they don't sell like we all think they will and decided they wanna go all in, Votto would fit exactly what the Sox lack in the lineup.

[Balta1701]

I'm generally unimpressed by the way Cinci runs their organization so they could do unexpectedly poor things, but I don't look at their roster and see them desperate to move Votto.

 

They've moved everyone else from their roster already who is expensive and not Homer Bailey. They're at well under $100 million committed for the foreseeable future every year, and Philips's deal expires after next season.

 

So let's say the Reds moved Votto, what would they be able to spend FA money on that is more valuable than him? They could go out and spend $25 million on a Cespedes, but Votto has outproduced him each of the last 2 years both in total offense and in fWAR terms. Plus, assuming no big changes from the CBA, in signing someone for that money they'd have to give up a draft pick themselves.

 

On the other hand, as they've pretty much moved all their veterans, Votto is the one constant organizational presence and even I'll say that when you're rebuilding it can be useful to have a guy or two who have been there forever, just to help the newbies get more comfortable. Bonus points if he's putting up a .950+ OPS every year.

 

So yes he's highly paid and under contract for longer than you'd want, but I don't see major pressure on the Reds to dump him. They're in fine shape payrollwise, and they're not going to get better production by spending the money on him elsewhere. So if you want Votto, you're going to have to put up a good offer - talent and taking on the money, to make it worth it to them.

 

I could certainly see them trying to move Bailey next season if he's recovered enough to get off to a good start in the first half after TJS, that would remove some risk and probably bring back a good return. Move him, and their payroll is under $80 million.

[TheTruth05]

I'm generally unimpressed by the way Cinci runs their organization so they could do unexpectedly poor things, but I don't look at their roster and see them desperate to move Votto.

 

They've moved everyone else from their roster already who is expensive and not Homer Bailey. They're at well under $100 million committed for the foreseeable future every year, and Philips's deal expires after next season.

 

So let's say the Reds moved Votto, what would they be able to spend FA money on that is more valuable than him? They could go out and spend $25 million on a Cespedes, but Votto has outproduced him each of the last 2 years both in total offense and in fWAR terms. Plus, assuming no big changes from the CBA, in signing someone for that money they'd have to give up a draft pick themselves.

 

On the other hand, as they've pretty much moved all their veterans, Votto is the one constant organizational presence and even I'll say that when you're rebuilding it can be useful to have a guy or two who have been there forever, just to help the newbies get more comfortable. Bonus points if he's putting up a .950+ OPS every year.

 

So yes he's highly paid and under contract for longer than you'd want, but I don't see major pressure on the Reds to dump him. They're in fine shape payrollwise, and they're not going to get better production by spending the money on him elsewhere. So if you want Votto, you're going to have to put up a good offer - talent and taking on the money, to make it worth it to them.

 

I could certainly see them trying to move Bailey next season if he's recovered enough to get off to a good start in the first half after TJS, that would remove some risk and probably bring back a good return. Move him, and their payroll is under $80 million.

 

I do agree with you that they have really no rush/incentive to move Votto but the last years of that contract will be ugly. Votto will 37-40 being paid $25 mill and probably a shell of himself for a team that would probably barely start to be competitive. Sox want to maximize their window now, even if they get 3-4 good years out of Votto (which is the exact window for Sale,Q,Abreu) then the trade is a win for both. If Cincy looks at the state of their team (the worst pitching staff this year in MLB) and the Sox dangle Fulmer+ to Cincy I don't see why they might not bite. Like you said, Cincy FO is prone to do some pretty weird things so maybe Hahn can make them bite.

Edited September 13, 2016 by TheTruth05

[Lip Man 1]

Given the lack of really good hitters available in the free agent class, if the Sox do "go for it" again in 2017 (and at this point that's what I'm hearing and expecting) they are going to have to figure out some "creative" ways to make it happen from that standpoint.

 

It appears it is going to be a tough off season to get top-flight hitters.

 

Mark

[caulfield12]

God help the White Sox when the Pujols years of that contract come due...the hard thing is still leaving major holes in CF, catcher, back end of the rotation and bullpen.

 

Couldn't have any injuries to key players in 2017.

[Balta1701]

I do agree with you that they have really no rush/incentive to move Votto but the last years of that contract will be ugly. Votto will 37-40 being paid $25 mill and probably a shell of himself for a team that would probably barely start to be competitive. Sox want to maximize their window now, even if they get 3-4 good years out of Votto (which is the exact window for Sale,Q,Abreu) then the trade is a win for both. If Cincy looks at the state of their team (the worst pitching staff this year in MLB) and the Sox dangle Fulmer+ to Cincy I don't see why they might not bite. Like you said, Cincy FO is prone to do some pretty weird things so maybe Hahn can make them bite.

Fulmer+ a couple other solid pieces with virtually no money coming back to Chicago is the kind of return that might make them interested. They'd be getting a good return out of moving him and would not be picking up money on their side. Less than that and there's no good reason for them to make that deal.

 

The last years will be ugly in total value yes, but stop and ask this - what will $25 million look like in 5 years with continued revenue growth? The average salary has gone up 25% in the last 5 years, and that's with the fraction of revenue going to the owners still going up. A $15 million contract for a guy at the end of his career today hurts your franchise some, but it's not murder any more. With revenue growth, a $25 million deal then will probably look like a $15 million deal today. They can deal with that if they have to - so if your org wants him, you're going to have to give the Reds a good reason to give him up.

[southsider2k5]

God help the White Sox when the Pujols years of that contract come due...the hard thing is still leaving major holes in CF, catcher, back end of the rotation and bullpen.

 

Couldn't have any injuries to key players in 2017.

 

???

[TheTruth05]

Fulmer+ a couple other solid pieces with virtually no money coming back to Chicago is the kind of return that might make them interested. They'd be getting a good return out of moving him and would not be picking up money on their side. Less than that and there's no good reason for them to make that deal.

 

The last years will be ugly in total value yes, but stop and ask this - what will $25 million look like in 5 years with continued revenue growth? The average salary has gone up 25% in the last 5 years, and that's with the fraction of revenue going to the owners still going up. A $15 million contract for a guy at the end of his career today hurts your franchise some, but it's not murder any more. With revenue growth, a $25 million deal then will probably look like a $15 million deal today. They can deal with that if they have to - so if your org wants him, you're going to have to give the Reds a good reason to give him up.

 

You're absolutely right about the continued growth, it will be pennies for a face of the franchise in another 5 years. But I also ask, is Cincy banking on him retiring before the end of the contract? I know none of us would have been okay with

Paulie making $25 mil in his last year as a backup 1b which I think Votto will turn into when he gets to those final years.

 

As for the bolded, I also agree. These contracts aren't absolute killers anymore because MLB is getting more and more money for revenue, but that's all in the future and Hahn needs to sell Cincy on the reality of now.

[caulfield12]

???

 

The last 3-4 years on that deal.

 

Let's just put it this way, the Rockies weren't going to trade their franchise player in CarGo for less than Fulmer, the Reds are going to want even more, especially as they've already dealt Frazier to the Sox and the hit to fans' morale with Votto leaving would be substantially higher.

 

If you're a Reds' fan, you expect a future ace and more for the best homegrown player in a generation. What second player offered in a deal would be enticing enough, especially if we were expecting ANY money coming back? It's not like we can trade trade Collins, too. That would almost defeat the purpose of adding Votto because you have to get some more young impact hitters to replace Frazier and Cabrera coming up.

[Lillian]

It may not be realistic to hope to be able to acquire Votto, however that is the kind of bat that would go a really long way toward making the offense productive.

If you inserted a hitter like that into this year's lineup, the bottom third of the order would instantly not be that big of an issue:

 

Eaton

Anderson

Abreu

Votto

Melky

Frazier

Saladino

Catcher (Outstanding Defense)

Center Fielder (Outstanding Defense, some speed and respectable OBP)

 

That is exactly the kind of roster I'd seek. With those top 6 hitters, why would it be so important to have real productive offensive players in Center and behind the plate?

I continue to think that trying to fill every "hole" with a good offensive player is both unrealistic and unnecessary.

Edited September 13, 2016 by Lillian

[caulfield12]

Just hope Votto doesn't start 2017 like he did 2016 or all the talk will be about a sell off again...with Frazier, Cabrera and Robertson if he's still around.

 

 

Why retooling isn't so easy...

 

Alex Gordon $12 million

Joakim Soria $7 million

Chris Young $4.25 million

 

That gets you a 0.0 WAR for $23.25 million and still on the hook for $85.25 million.

 

Jason Vargas $8.5

Kris Medlen $5.5 million

Mike Minor $2 million

 

That actually puts you into negative WAR for another $16 million this year, on the hook for another $14.25 million next.

 

The point here is that you have a small market team with 1/3rd of their payroll producing negative WAR, basically all the players they added with this year's free agent class and the leftovers from past seasons' dumpster diving.

 

So you have a combination of maybe the worst moves of ANY team in free agency...and yet they're still likely to finish above .500 and ahead of the White Sox. They were actually just two games back in the wild card hunt two weeks ago, before Joakim Soria turned into Matt Albers. And keeping in mind again they lost Moustakas, Gordon, Cain, Davis and Perez for significant stretches of the season.

 

Are the odds favoring even more injuries and another set of atrocious free agent moves again this season?

Edited September 14, 2016 by caulfield12