Chicago White Sox Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 QUOTE (StrykerSox @ Sep 17, 2016 -> 02:19 PM) Saladino has had an 18 game hot streak (OPS of .935 in that span). Before that, he was at a .674 OPS. That puts him dead last among qualified MLB 2Bs. Now at .738, there are only five MLB two-baggers below him (Phillips, Gennett, Panik, Utley and Harrison). Let's not act like Saladino is some proven hitter who can only be prevented from starting at second next year by the acquisition of Moncada or better. He's had a nice 18 games, but he's been BAD for most of his career. If regular Tyler (as in the player we've seen for 88% of his career) shows up and he's a starter, we are going to sink hard. Tyler Saladino has 565 career plate appearances. His entire career is effectively a rookie season. You act like he's sucked for years and ignore the progress he has made this season, in particular when he's gotten consistent playing time. And why do cite offensive comps and ignore the value he provides in the field and on the bases? If he simply he kept up his current production over the course of a full season he'd be right around 15th or so in fWAR among 2B. Honestly, I can't quite grasp your hatred for him, but it's really, really bizarre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Sep 17, 2016 -> 03:42 PM) Guys...there's nothing wrong with him in a backup role. Sure, but not if Brett Lawrie is starting ahead of him. Saladino is a better player IMO for a fraction of the cost. Edited September 17, 2016 by Chicago White Sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (StrykerSox @ Sep 17, 2016 -> 02:19 PM) Saladino has had an 18 game hot streak (OPS of .935 in that span). Before that, he was at a .674 OPS. That puts him dead last among qualified MLB 2Bs. Now at .738, there are only five MLB two-baggers below him (Phillips, Gennett, Panik, Utley and Harrison). Let's not act like Saladino is some proven hitter who can only be prevented from starting at second next year by the acquisition of Moncada or better. He's had a nice 18 games, but he's been BAD for most of his career. If regular Tyler (as in the player we've seen for 88% of his career) shows up and he's a starter, we are going to sink hard. That's all fine, but Lawrie, the "proven veteran", had a OPS of .723 before he went down. how does that stack up? And the year before it was .706. Saladino is also a very good defender and can play all infield positions. No Saladino isn't an all star level player...but he also in his 2nd year. And it's not like the Sox have someone better. Further, they have much greater deficits compared to the rest of the league at other positions, like CF. Edited September 17, 2016 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Sep 17, 2016 -> 03:43 PM) I'm all for finding someone better. Who did you have in mind? What? Your comment makes no sense as a response to my comment lol you make it sound like I want to replace him when I do not. I'm saying it isn't a problem for him to be depth on our bench. Depth is important. Something we should know after the season we've had. Edited September 17, 2016 by soxfan2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 QUOTE (StrykerSox @ Sep 17, 2016 -> 02:19 PM) Saladino has had an 18 game hot streak (OPS of .935 in that span). Before that, he was at a .674 OPS. That puts him dead last among qualified MLB 2Bs. Now at .738, there are only five MLB two-baggers below him (Phillips, Gennett, Panik, Utley and Harrison). Let's not act like Saladino is some proven hitter who can only be prevented from starting at second next year by the acquisition of Moncada or better. He's had a nice 18 games, but he's been BAD for most of his career. If regular Tyler (as in the player we've seen for 88% of his career) shows up and he's a starter, we are going to sink hard. Most of his career? lol. We are talking about a kid in his rookie year essentially. I do appreciate how instead of focusing on a hot streak, you picked out the exact lowest point he was at in a full three month span, and are treating that as if it was his entire season. That is his low point. Not his average, not his median. His zenith. His bottom. We are talking about a kid who hasn't even played a total of 162 games yet. Again, the average OPS of all 2Bs is .775. So he is slightly below average, with way above average defense. If you go off of Fangraphs OPS+, the kid is sitting 21st in baseball at 96 RC+. The crazy thing is that in the counting state of Dwar, he is 13th. If you were to extend him out to a full season's worth of games, he'd easily be in the top 10. What you are looking at already is a middle of the road major league 2B, if he doesn't improve a lick. If he improves a marginal amount, he is a top 10 major league 2B, as a cost of 500k for another two years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 QUOTE (StrykerSox @ Sep 17, 2016 -> 02:34 PM) I don't think he's going to replicate this hot streak. And if we start him because of this hot streak, and he reverts back to his typical level, it'll be a small but meaningful contribution to the fact that you and I will be watching more s*** baseball next year. Why does only his absolutely lowest spot in a cold streak count, but not his hot streak? That is a 100% misleading and biased misrepresentation of his season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Sep 17, 2016 -> 04:55 PM) What? Your comment makes no sense as a response to my comment lol you make it sound like I want to replace him when I do not. I'm saying it isn't a problem for him to be depth on our bench. Depth is important. Something we should know after the season we've had. Right now he is a starter. Who will be replacing him so he can be "depth on our bench?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 QUOTE (GreenSox @ Sep 17, 2016 -> 04:35 PM) That's all fine, but Lawrie, the "proven veteran", had a OPS of .723 before he went down. how does that stack up? And the year before it was .706. Saladino is also a very good defender and can play all infield positions. No Saladino isn't an all star level player...but he also in his 2nd year. And it's not like the Sox have someone better. Further, they have much greater deficits compared to the rest of the league at other positions, like CF. So did you know that Lawrie is younger than Saladino? Just curious. Why is Tyler still developing and Lawrie can't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Sep 17, 2016 -> 11:05 PM) So did you know that Lawrie is younger than Saladino? Just curious. Why is Tyler still developing and Lawrie can't? The simple answer is because Lawrie has 2,417 major league plate appearances while Saladino only has 565. Age and development don't always go hand and hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 (edited) See Gordon Beckham, Avi Garcia or Dayan Viciedo... Edited September 18, 2016 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 (edited) No one seems to mention the "eye test". The more I've watch both Lawrie and Saladino, the more I favor the latter. Perhaps it's that terrible hitch in Lawrie's swing and all of the accompanying strike outs. Whatever it is, Tyler just looks like a more fundamentally solid player. It's a shame because Lawrie has talent. Some guys just seem to have that baseball acumen and Saladino strikes me as one of those guys. When Lawrie broke into the Big Leagues, he was young, even for a rookie. He began his career with a world of promise, but has not developed, in fact, he has regressed. He should now be in his prime, but has not translated his physical tools into performance. Maybe that's something that requires good baseball acumen. Put another way; the better the baseball acumen, the better a player is able to use his experience, in order to improve his performance. Saladino gives one the impression that he is that kind of player. Do others here get the same impression? Edited September 18, 2016 by Lillian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted September 18, 2016 Share Posted September 18, 2016 QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Sep 17, 2016 -> 07:48 PM) Right now he is a starter. Who will be replacing him so he can be "depth on our bench?" Sorry. I should have been more clear. The comment was for those arguing between Lawrie and Saladino as the starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 QUOTE (Lillian @ Sep 18, 2016 -> 11:55 AM) No one seems to mention the "eye test". The more I've watch both Lawrie and Saladino, the more I favor the latter. Perhaps it's that terrible hitch in Lawrie's swing and all of the accompanying strike outs. Whatever it is, Tyler just looks like a more fundamentally solid player. It's a shame because Lawrie has talent. Some guys just seem to have that baseball acumen and Saladino strikes me as one of those guys. When Lawrie broke into the Big Leagues, he was young, even for a rookie. He began his career with a world of promise, but has not developed, in fact, he has regressed. He should now be in his prime, but has not translated his physical tools into performance. Maybe that's something that requires good baseball acumen. Put another way; the better the baseball acumen, the better a player is able to use his experience, in order to improve his performance. Saladino gives one the impression that he is that kind of player. Do others here get the same impression? Yes. Yes. Yes. I always use the eye test even though it angers the stat-niks. Just get rid of Lawrie and try to get a serviceable bullpen guy for him and insert Tyler at 2B. That's a helluva infield in theory: Frazier, Anderson, Saladino and Abreu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 One thing they both have in common is trouble staying healthy. Saladino has had several injuries, and is currently out after hearing a pop in his calf Friday night. Might need them both around to make it through a season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 Worth mentioning the "kid" is older than Lawrie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxforlife05 Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 (edited) QUOTE (Jake @ Sep 18, 2016 -> 10:58 PM) Worth mentioning the "kid" is older than Lawrie Lawrie is playing for a new contract also and I'm sure he's hoping to cash in big with another team. I think he puts up his best season to date next year. Edited September 19, 2016 by soxforlife05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 QUOTE (Jake @ Sep 18, 2016 -> 10:58 PM) Worth mentioning the "kid" is older than Lawrie It is also worth noting that Tyler Saladino's OPS today is higher than any single season that Brett Lawrie has put up since his 2011 171 PAs season that he was a midseason call up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 19, 2016 -> 09:08 AM) It is also worth noting that Tyler Saladino's OPS today is higher than any single season that Brett Lawrie has put up since his 2011 171 PAs season that he was a midseason call up. I like Tyler, but that's cherry picking to the max. 9 games ago, it was .690. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 in the 48 games since he's been a starter his OPS is .762 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elrockinMT Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 I like both Lawrie and Saladino. It doesn't have to be one or the other as we have roles for both of them to fill in 2017 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Sep 19, 2016 -> 04:51 PM) I like both Lawrie and Saladino. It doesn't have to be one or the other as we have roles for both of them to fill in 2017 No kidding. It took both of them to get through the season this year but it won't take 2 next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Sep 19, 2016 -> 04:51 PM) I like both Lawrie and Saladino. It doesn't have to be one or the other as we have roles for both of them to fill in 2017 Unless you get a big offer for Lawrie, there is no reason to not bring him back again. He isn't cost prohibative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted September 19, 2016 Share Posted September 19, 2016 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 19, 2016 -> 04:58 PM) Unless you get a big offer for Lawrie, there is no reason to not bring him back again. He isn't cost prohibative. Not sure I agree there. We have several significant holes and the $5M+ Lawrie will earn next season could best be used to elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 19, 2016 -> 03:23 AM) One thing they both have in common is trouble staying healthy. Saladino has had several injuries, and is currently out after hearing a pop in his calf Friday night. Might need them both around to make it through a season. I didn't realize Tyler was injury prone. Not good obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 19, 2016 -> 06:16 PM) Not sure I agree there. We have several significant holes and the $5M+ Lawrie will earn next season could best be used to elsewhere. To get the next Latos or Rollins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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