USA Today: White Sox Will Retain Robin Ventura, If He Wants to Return

[Black_Jack29]

True but there is also more overall revenue sharing through merchandising, national TV deals and the new technology platforms to watch / stream games then ever before. We are talking a lot of shared money.

 

And just for the record it was Bud Selig himself who claimed MLB is in the same ballpark as the NFL in terms of overall revenue. I'd assume as commissioner at the time he'd have an intimate knowledge of the financial situation for baseball and Selig was never known to tout how strong MLB was financially before this situation.

 

Mark

 

I'm not disputing that there isn't more shared revenue than there has been in the past. There's MLB Network, MLB.TV, and other avenues for shared revenue that there weren't before. But that's nothing like the NFL, where the league shares massive regular season and TV rights from the networks and DirecTV. I believe that they share merchandising revenue as well.

 

I believe that MLB is near the NFL in *overall* revenue, but that's not what we're talking about here. There is a massive disparity in what MLB teams earn, and that's driven mostly by disparities in local TV revenue (almost all MLB games are televised locally) and ticket/parking/concessions revenue (for 81 homes games vs. 8 home games in the NFL). The Yankees pulled in over twice what the Sox did last season and, not surprisingly, their payroll is roughly $50-80M more than the Sox's payroll every season. On the other hand, any disparity in NFL team revenue is swamped out by the salary cap/floor and cap penalties. There are no "rich" and "poor" teams in the NFL. That's not true in MLB, and it's reflected in the payrolls.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Black_Jack29

[captain54]

Yes, Robin has a losing record as a manager. So does the janitor, I guess. Who cares? Neither of them win or lose games. Front offices use managers as "fall guys" to placate angry fan mobs. It's a nearly meaningless gesture and it SHOULDN'T be enough for you. Don't let them pass off a different manager as a proxy for change.

 

So according to that logic, the Cubs move to hire Joe Maddon was irrelevant... they'd have the same 100 win season with Ronnie Woo Woo as the skipper, right?

[Black_Jack29]

So according to that logic, the Cubs move to hire Joe Maddon was irrelevant... they'd have the same 100 win season with Ronnie Woo Woo as the skipper, right?

 

Maddon definitely helps, but their talent level would've guaranteed 85+ wins last season and 95+ wins this season had they retained Renteria.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Black_Jack29

[GreenSox]

I for one want a scrub down of the front office before this team makes moves and the coaching staff (minus MAYBE Herm Schneider).

That makes two of us.

 

It's hard to blame the budget when Hahn had no problem encumbering with the Sox with an albatross Shields contract. And then he squandered about $15 million in now dead money on veterans on their last legs that he and KW so dearly love. Their budget is probably higher than it should be, given the revenue.

What the FO needs is some basic competence, if not some real skill.

Edited September 29, 2016 by GreenSox

[captain54]

Because the White Sox are the 2nd team in the smallest market with multiple teams.

 

You're probably too young to remember this, but in my lifetime.. there was a rather extended period of time where the White Sox were the #1 MLB in the city, not the Cubs...a stretch of almost two decades..the 50's and 60's..as a matter of fact, it was cause for serious ridicule to publicly admit you were a Cub fan... so it's not a given that the White Sox are relegated to 2nd class status....

[Black_Jack29]

You're probably too young to remember this, but in my lifetime.. there was a rather extended period of time where the White Sox were the #1 MLB in the city, not the Cubs...a stretch of almost two decades..the 50's and 60's..as a matter of fact, it was cause for serious ridicule to publicly admit you were a Cub fan... so it's not a given that the White Sox are relegated to 2nd class status....

 

And JR and Einhorn's PR blunders between the early '80s and mid-90's, coupled with the Cub ownership's savviness, changed that culture. There's no easy way back now. Even the Sox winning Chicago's first WS in almost a century didn't convert Cubs fans to Sox fans.

 

[caulfield12]

Because the White Sox are the 2nd team in the smallest market with multiple teams.

 

Oakland is behind the Sox...Washington/Baltimore are lumped together now as well, by most.

[captain54]

And JR and Einhorn's PR blunders between the early '80s and mid-90's, coupled with the Cub ownership's savviness, changed that culture. There's no easy way back now. Even the Sox winning Chicago's first WS in almost a century didn't convert Cubs fans to Sox fans.

 

I agree, all across the board......100%

 

There are two ways to look at it...

 

1) Does the current ownership fall victim to living in a town where they got a terrible luck of the draw? that despite bringing a WS to the city, they still play second fiddle?

 

or

 

2) Did the current ownership completely drop the ball by not being able to capitalize on being the only MLB team in this town win a title in 100 yrs?

 

 

 

 

 

[Lip Man 1]

You're probably too young to remember this, but in my lifetime.. there was a rather extended period of time where the White Sox were the #1 MLB in the city, not the Cubs...a stretch of almost two decades..the 50's and 60's..as a matter of fact, it was cause for serious ridicule to publicly admit you were a Cub fan... so it's not a given that the White Sox are relegated to 2nd class status....

 

 

That's true...very true. And I didn't realize now metro Chicago is smaller than San Francisco / Oakland...never knew that before.

 

This was part of what I considered an outstanding column in the Sun-Times today just FYI:

 

"Built into the Sox’ distaste for change is a real lack of respect for the fan base. It would take a lot of gall to be as bad to mediocre as the team has been under Ventura and then tell the faithful that you’re re-signing manager Status Quo. It would take almost as much gall to advance a phony storyline to protect Ventura’s feelings over the feelings of fans who have been battered by this franchise for years.

 

Juxtapose all of this with the Cubs’ approach and the Epstein contract extension.

 

The six NBA titles with the Bulls were nice, as was the World Series with the White Sox, but you never get the feeling that winning has been Reinsdorf’s motivation. He has always seemed more grateful for the relationships he has forged over the years, whether it be with Harold Baines, Ozzie Guillen, Paul Konerko, Jim Thome or Ventura, than the winning. But professional sports isn’t about collecting friends. It’s about collecting victories. What do they say? It’s why they keep score."

 

Mark

 

[Lip Man 1]

I agree, all across the board......100%

 

There are two ways to look at it...

 

1) Does the current ownership fall victim to living in a town where they got a terrible luck of the draw? that despite bringing a WS to the city, they still play second fiddle?

 

or

 

2) Did the current ownership completely drop the ball by not being able to capitalize on being the only MLB team in this town win a title in 100 yrs?

 

Both you and Black Jack make excellent points here. It's the "chicken and the egg" thing. Which came first?

 

There's no question in my mind though, the Sox had their chances to take back their own city and for reasons both under and beyond their control failed to do so or even try in some cases based on their stated operating philosophy from the time new ownership took over.

 

Mark

 

[Black_Jack29]

I agree, all across the board......100%

 

There are two ways to look at it...

 

1) Does the current ownership fall victim to living in a town where they got a terrible luck of the draw? that despite bringing a WS to the city, they still play second fiddle?

 

or

 

2) Did the current ownership completely drop the ball by not being able to capitalize on being the only MLB team in this town win a title in 100 yrs?

 

I'd say that (1) is more correct, with the major caveat that the current ownership group's poor decision-making decades ago directly resulted in their current second-class status. Back in the early '80s, there was no clear-cut #1 baseball team in Chicago.

 

Given Chicago's North Side/South Side baseball balkanization culture and modern society's downright slavish devotion to political parties, I think that the Sox front office gets a pass for not "converting" Cubs fans after winning the WS. Adults aren't going to switch their allegiance and their kids typically follow the team that their parents follow.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Black_Jack29

[Dick Allen]

I agree, all across the board......100%

 

There are two ways to look at it...

 

1) Does the current ownership fall victim to living in a town where they got a terrible luck of the draw? that despite bringing a WS to the city, they still play second fiddle?

 

or

 

2) Did the current ownership completely drop the ball by not being able to capitalize on being the only MLB team in this town win a title in 100 yrs?

The 79-83 2005 Cubs outdrew the world champs by 750,000

The 66-96 2006 Cubs outdrew the defending world champs by about 100,000.

[Big Hurtin]

Uh, yeah, that's it. Ticket revenue doesn't matter when running a sports franchise. $35 million dollars is chump change. You've obviously never run a business before.

 

 

 

If you knew anything about business, you'd know that net worth includes non-cash assets, such as his financial stakes in the Sox and Bulls.

 

The idea that Reinsdorf is an old miser when his franchise is near the bottom 20% of the league in attendance, but in the top half in payroll is silly. The idea that he should dump his own personal savings into the team's payroll is equally silly.

 

It actually benefits Reinsdorf to have lower attendance.

 

"The Sox also must pay a fee on each ticket sold in excess of 1.93 million in paid attendance. Since 2008, the Sox have paid that fee only in 2010, when games drew 2.2 million fans. However, the Sox were allowed to apply a credit based on the taxes the team paid that year, reducing the ticket fee payment from $455,974 to $95,531.

 

"The White Sox didn't have that much of an incentive to really pack the place," Sanderson said."

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-sox-...0521-story.html

 

[Dick Allen]

<!--quoteo(post=3429649:date=Sep 29, 2016 -> 01:00 PM:name=Black_Jack29)-->

<!--quotec-->Uh, yeah, that's it. Ticket revenue doesn't matter when running a sports franchise. $35 million dollars is chump change. You've obviously never run a business before.

 

 

 

If you knew anything about business, you'd know that net worth includes non-cash assets, such as his financial stakes in the Sox and Bulls.

 

The idea that Reinsdorf is an old miser when his franchise is near the bottom 20% of the league in attendance, but in the top half in payroll is silly. The idea that he should dump his own personal savings into the team's payroll is equally silly.

 

It actually benefits Reinsdorf to have lower attendance.

 

"The Sox also must pay a fee on each ticket sold in excess of 1.93 million in paid attendance. Since 2008, the Sox have paid that fee only in 2010, when games drew 2.2 million fans. However, the Sox were allowed to apply a credit based on the taxes the team paid that year, reducing the ticket fee payment from $455,974 to $95,531.

 

"The White Sox didn't have that much of an incentive to really pack the place," Sanderson said."

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-sox-...0521-story.html

so 270,000 tickets at about $25 each isn't worth selling because of a $95,000 tax hit?

 

 

 

 

[Black_Jack29]

so 270,000 tickets at about $25 each isn't worth selling because of a $95,000 tax hit?

 

Exactly. Reinsdorf's lease has some nice incentives, but it doesn't even begin to make up for the increased revenue from increased ticket sales. Also consider that most people drive to the ballpark and, of those, the Sox get $20 in parking for every 2-4 of those folks. And each person probably spends $10-$30 on food/beer at the ballpark.

 

[Big Hurtin]

so 270,000 tickets at about $25 each isn't worth selling because of a $95,000 tax hit?

Not when it would require investing millions of dollars to make that happen.

[Saufley]

You're probably too young to remember this, but in my lifetime.. there was a rather extended period of time where the White Sox were the #1 MLB in the city, not the Cubs...a stretch of almost two decades..the 50's and 60's..as a matter of fact, it was cause for serious ridicule to publicly admit you were a Cub fan... so it's not a given that the White Sox are relegated to 2nd class status....

 

I was in the seventh grade when the Sox were in the 1959 World Series and lived in the NW suburbs, which was supposedly Cub's country at that time.

I've just about had it with this current FO and ownership.

 

[southsider2k5]

Exactly. Reinsdorf's lease has some nice incentives, but it doesn't even begin to make up for the increased revenue from increased ticket sales. Also consider that most people drive to the ballpark and, of those, the Sox get $20 in parking for every 2-4 of those folks. And each person probably spends $10-$30 on food/beer at the ballpark.

 

Each of those tickets has more spending at the park to go with it, not to mention the things like bigger advertising dollars from having more people watching games, higher ratings etc.

[SCCWS]

 

 

Maybe there is another factor, age. When JR was 60 or 70 maybe he would react differently. But at 80 now, JR may be in "retirement mode" and is not anxious to "blow it up". So Kenny, Hahn and Robin's jobs are safe because loyalty/continuity are more important to JR than winning. JR's net worth is more than a $ billion these days so status quo to him may be acceptable.

[greg775]

Back to the topic ... Maybe the Sox have decided there's nobody exciting available out there. Maybe if the Yankees flop in the playoffs they'll fire their manager and we can get him in a year.

Let's face it ... If the Sox can only get somebody like a Martinez or Alomar, why bother? That's what they may be thinking. Robin is a poor manager, sure, but why hire some guy who will likely fail and we'd have to give him at least 3 year contract. Until a good one becomes available we keep Robin.

Not saying it's right but it may be the issue here.

 

I do wish Robin would work on his deficiencies. Cmon Robin, the four wins on the road vs. the Central HAS to be addressed. The Sox have some decent players. We shouldn't be THIS bad every year.

 

Don't mistake this post. I want Robin gone, but I'm just saying the people available may suck.

[caulfield12]

Back to the topic ... Maybe the Sox have decided there's nobody exciting available out there. Maybe if the Yankees flop in the playoffs they'll fire their manager and we can get him in a year.

Let's face it ... If the Sox can only get somebody like a Martinez or Alomar, why bother? That's what they may be thinking. Robin is a poor manager, sure, but why hire some guy who will likely fail and we'd have to give him at least 3 year contract. Until a good one becomes available we keep Robin.

Not saying it's right but it may be the issue here.

 

I do wish Robin would work on his deficiencies. Cmon Robin, the four wins on the road vs. the Central HAS to be addressed. The Sox have some decent players. We shouldn't be THIS bad every year.

 

Don't mistake this post. I want Robin gone, but I'm just saying the people available may suck.

 

Yankees in the playoffs? After next season?

 

Are the White Sox really going to offer Girardi that type of money, and would he really go to a rebuilding team? Miami a decade ago and then "starting over" with the White Sox would be two diametrically-opposed extremes, especially with the Cubs' resurgence and the fact that he was long-considered a possible manager for the Cubs.

 

If anything, you'd think he would be the favorite to take the Cubs' job when Maddon retires, whenever that happens.

 

Definitely the case if they don't manage to win a World Series in the next 3-5 years.

 

 

KUDOS for no mention/s of Leyland, LaRussa, Francona or Guillen!!!

Edited September 30, 2016 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

So according to that logic, the Cubs move to hire Joe Maddon was irrelevant... they'd have the same 100 win season with Ronnie Woo Woo as the skipper, right?

 

Yes, this:

 

Maddon definitely helps, but their talent level would've guaranteed 85+ wins last season and 95+ wins this season had they retained Renteria.

 

[GreenSox]

Maddon helped the Cubs win 6 extra games or so. Savvy trades for Rizzo, Arieta, Hendricks, Russell and a closer nabbed in Rule V were worth a lot more wins. And not a "proven veteran" among them, Kenny Williams.

[SCCWS]

Maddon helped the Cubs win 6 extra games or so. Savvy trades for Rizzo, Arieta, Hendricks, Russell and a closer nabbed in Rule V were worth a lot more wins. And not a "proven veteran" among them, Kenny Williams.

 

 

You forgot a couple. Last I looked Lester and Lackey had 30 wins. They were proven veterans.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Maddon helped the Cubs win 6 extra games or so. Savvy trades for Rizzo, Arieta, Hendricks, Russell and a closer nabbed in Rule V were worth a lot more wins. And not a "proven veteran" among them, Kenny Williams.

 

You honestly think a good manager is worth an extra 6 wins a year? Come on. That would rank them the equivalent of a top caliber player. If that were the case they would make far greater money than they do.