USA Today: White Sox Will Retain Robin Ventura, If He Wants to Return

[Dick Allen]

"I did a terrible job. In response, I should do the exact same thing. It'll work better next time."

 

White Sox, pre-2016.

 

Why are people like me annoyed? Because we're expecting the exact same thing pre-2017, and keeping the manager despite all the locker room issues that spilled out into the public eye this year fits with that expectation perfectly.

Yeah the locker room issues. Started out 23-10 after the LaRoche thing. After Sale cut up the uniforms, they won the next 4 games.

 

Apparently they need more locker room issues.

[Dick Allen]

If anyone else had been given a shot for five years and this had been the result, you bet I'd want them fired too, and they'd deserve it.

 

Instead I'm supposed to be thankful the team is so fearless. We will see what they do about the roster and I'll take what I can get, but it isn't the only problem.

Fearless was a bit much, I would agree with that, but it is possible Robin is pretty good with a decent roster. I don't think anyone was expecting 85 wins in 2012.

 

Another thing to remember is as long as KW, RH and JR are calling the personnel shots, it appears whoever is the manager most will eventually be pissed at. And they are going nowhere.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

Yeah the locker room issues. Started out 23-10 after the LaRoche thing. After Sale cut up the uniforms, they won the next 4 games.

 

Apparently they need more locker room issues.

And one of their best players publicly coming out and saying they don't work hard enough?

[bmags]

Holy hell just actually read that nightengale story. What a garbage fest.

[Dick Allen]

And one of their best players publicly coming out and saying they don't work hard enough?

Can you link me to that quote. Don't waste your time. There isn't a quote out there that states the White Sox don't work hard enough.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Dick Allen

[Black_Jack29]

Also $140mm isn't a ton nowadays. It sounds like a lot. But in the baseball world, $140mm isn't what it used to be. $100mm payroll used to be something, now only the Marlins, Brewers and Rays operate under $100mm.

 

A $140M payroll puts the Sox in the top half of MLB payrolls, despite the fact that they're 12/15 in attendance in the AL and will struggle to reach 1.7 million tickets sold this season. So, yeah, JR isn't spending like an elite team, but he doesn't have the financial resources to spend like the Dodgers or Yankees.

 

Final thought? The difference between spending $140mm and $165mm may sound like a lot, but really isn't. Think about if we didn't go in with our plan this offseason and spend $10mm on COMPLETE JUNK (latos, rollins, etc.) Now take that $10mm + 25mm of extra funds.....

 

 

$35mm this year could have landed you Cespedes (possibly) and Ian Desmond. Again I know this is cherry picking, but a lot of us wanted those guys.

 

Cespedes wanted $30M to play for one season and to bolt to free agency this winter. He's also been streaky throughout his career, which makes that contract a huge gamble. (That said, he's been having a really nice season and the gamble did appear to pay off for the Mets.)

 

I agree with you about Desmond. The Sox should've out-bid the Ranger for him, rather than signing A-Jax.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Can you link me to that quote. Don't waste your time. There isn't a quote out there that states the White Sox don't work hard enough.

Jose Abreu credited the Royals' "desire to win" and their "hunger to win games and to be good" as important traits setting them apart during three years of dominance while Abreu has been part of the White Sox.

 

When asked if the White Sox had that same desire to win following Kansas City's 8-3 victory at Kauffman Stadium Monday, one of the White Sox leaders provided a one-word answer that didn't need further explanation from interpreter Billy Russo.

 

"No," said Abreu, shaking his head.

 

He then was asked how the Sox could develop that desire.

 

"I think it begins with me," said Abreu, who, while not pointing any fingers, also did not give anyone a free pass -- including himself.

And you're going to of course focus on the exact words, I'm sure.

[Lip Man 1]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/colum...928-column.html

 

The juxtaposition between the Cubs' and Sox announcements was jarring, to say the least.

 

 

AS THEO EPSTEIN RECEIVES COMMITMENT ($50 million for 5 years), VENTURA TWISTS IN THE WIND

 

I'm pretty sure the White Sox haven't spent $50 million on the GM's salary over the history of the entire franchise.

 

Rick Morrissey in the Sun-Times today had one of the best columns I've read in a very long time talking about the Sox situation.

 

Mark

[Lip Man 1]

Reinsdorf no doubt wants to win, but it has to be done his way. And quite frankly, that's the problem. He's not willing to go above and beyond what's necessary to overcome our poor farm system in order to build a winner. Signing a bunch of B free agents and never going into the red isn't going to cut it when we get very little help from the minors. He doesn't like utilizing loopholes, such as refusing to go over slot for years in the draft, and he's generally never been a big supporter of investing large dollars into said minor league system (with a few exceptions). Worst of all, he's built an organization with no accountability. How Buddy Bell is still here after years of development failure is beyond belief. The same arguably applies to KW, Hahn, & Ventura. Combine these factors amongst others, and it's no wonder we're stuck in baseball hell right now.

 

I've never been a Reinsdorf hater, but we desperately need fresh blood at the top of this organzation.

 

Very well written statement in my opinion.

 

Mark

 

[fathom]

Kaplan thinks he's gone

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/thekapman/status...500000626810880

[Leonard Zelig]

Exactly. Unfortunately, "his way" worked in 2005, so he's going to continue to operate that way.

 

Yes, that was so unfortunate. I remember so many posters on this site saying how that was one of the most unfortunate events in their lives.

[shysocks]

Kaplan thinks he's gone

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/thekapman/status...500000626810880

Does he have an average source, a good source, or a phenomenal source?

[Lip Man 1]

I actually did get a response back from Nightengale and I appreciated him taking the time to read my e-mail (and told him so). If interested here was his reply:

 

"Thanks Mark,

 

I really appreciate you taking the time to write. I just wanted to point out that it's refreshing when a team doesn't just use their manager as a scapegoat."

 

I understand his point but there were better ways to do that then by ripping the fan base considering the garbage baseball they have seen for basically a decade.

 

Mark

 

[southsider2k5]

And you're going to of course focus on the exact words, I'm sure.

 

He did clarify the remarks the next day.

 

http://www.csnchicago.com/chicago-white-so...e-sox-clubhouse

 

“What we talked about yesterday was about me,” Abreu said through an interpreter. “I don’t have anything more to add. That’s it.

 

That could be a backtrack, or it could be a language misunderstanding.

[gosoxgo2005]

A $140M payroll puts the Sox in the top half of MLB payrolls, despite the fact that they're 12/15 in attendance in the AL and will struggle to reach 1.7 million tickets sold this season. So, yeah, JR isn't spending like an elite team, but he doesn't have the financial resources to spend like the Dodgers or Yankees.

 

 

Please stop with your Jerry Reinsdorf defenses. He has the best stadium deal in ALL OF SPORTS. Attendance doesn't mean s*** to him. All it is is an excuse for him not to spend big bucks. He's also a legitimate billionaire. With a B. 1.35 BILLION dollars, a simple google search shows.

 

Having a payroll of about $115MM this year (off the top of my head) when it should be $150MM in order to sign the best free agents instead of dumpster diving is disgusting, especially when your best players are all signed for long term, well belowtheir market values.

 

That $35MM increase is pennies to him. Seriously, it's nothing. The attendance is an excuse to not spend.

Edited September 29, 2016 by gosoxgo2005

[Dick Allen]

And you're going to of course focus on the exact words, I'm sure.

Yes I am because what you said is false.

 

I don't think effort is a problem with this team. They rarely roll over and die. The talent level was short. Especially with injuries. They are so thin, they cannot overcome injuries to average players.

[BigSqwert]

I don't think this franchise is going anywhere without a change in ownership. Doesn't really matter who manages the team but it's also hard to reward Robin given the track record of head-scratching in-game decisions and lineups.

[Black_Jack29]

That $35MM increase is pennies to him. Seriously, it's nothing. The attendance is an excuse to not spend.

 

Uh, yeah, that's it. Ticket revenue doesn't matter when running a sports franchise. $35 million dollars is chump change. You've obviously never run a business before.

 

Please stop with your Jerry Reinsdorf defenses. He has the best stadium deal in ALL OF SPORTS. Attendance doesn't mean s*** to him. All it is is an excuse for him not to spend big bucks. He's also a legitimate billionaire. With a B. 1.35 BILLION dollars, a simple google search shows.

 

If you knew anything about business, you'd know that net worth includes non-cash assets, such as his financial stakes in the Sox and Bulls.

 

The idea that Reinsdorf is an old miser when his franchise is near the bottom 20% of the league in attendance, but in the top half in payroll is silly. The idea that he should dump his own personal savings into the team's payroll is equally silly.

 

Edited September 29, 2016 by Black_Jack29

[tray]

 

The criticism of JR and of the White Sox is unwarranted. There is no proven correlation between spending on free agents and a team's success.

There have been bad moves like Shields and LaRoach, but there have been some good transactions like Abreu, Eaton, Quintana and Sale.

JR has spent enormous money on the White Sox and on the Bulls. MJ had the largest player Contract in history.

 

There is a LOT of luck involved in Sports from Drafting players, trades and in the way the ball bounces in games.

I am sick and tired of the hand wringing and the finger pointing. Mistakes have been made but baseball is just a game, so there s nothing earth shattering about that.

 

As a Sox fan, just try to look forward to some changes and additions to the team for next season. 29 other teams will be trying to do the same thing.

 

I remember about this time in 2003 when Sox fans were all down and depressed. Things turned around quickly and that can happen again.

[Balta1701]

Yes I am because what you said is false.

 

I don't think effort is a problem with this team. They rarely roll over and die. The talent level was short. Especially with injuries. They are so thin, they cannot overcome injuries to average players.

And top to bottom, the organization is ok with that. As long as they can come in at the end of year evaluations and say they did their best, they shouldn't be evaluated on wins and losses. The manager, the coaching staff, the front office, all agree.

[jenksycat]

The criticism of JR and of the White Sox is unwarranted. There is no proven correlation between spending on free agents and a team's success.

There have been bad moves like Shields and LaRoach, but there have been some good transactions like Abreu, Eaton, Quintana and Sale.

JR has spent enormous money on the White Sox and on the Bulls. MJ had the largest player Contract in history.

 

There is a LOT of luck involved in Sports from Drafting players, trades and in the way the ball bounces in games.

I am sick and tired of the hand wringing and the finger pointing. Mistakes have been made but baseball is just a game, so there s nothing earth shattering about that.

 

As a Sox fan, just try to look forward to some changes and additions to the team for next season. 29 other teams will be trying to do the same thing.

 

I remember about this time in 2003 when Sox fans were all down and depressed. Things turned around quickly and that can happen again.

 

There is WAY more to ownership than just "spend or don't spend" and I put most of the blame on JR. It starts at the top and if you're owner is stuck in his ways there's not much you can do but hope to hit the lottery on draftpicks or scrap heap pickups.

[Dick Allen]

The criticism of JR and of the White Sox is unwarranted. There is no proven correlation between spending on free agents and a team's success.

There have been bad moves like Shields and LaRoach, but there have been some good transactions like Abreu, Eaton, Quintana and Sale.

JR has spent enormous money on the White Sox and on the Bulls. MJ had the largest player Contract in history.

 

There is a LOT of luck involved in Sports from Drafting players, trades and in the way the ball bounces in games.

I am sick and tired of the hand wringing and the finger pointing. Mistakes have been made but baseball is just a game, so there s nothing earth shattering about that.

 

As a Sox fan, just try to look forward to some changes and additions to the team for next season. 29 other teams will be trying to do the same thing.

 

I remember about this time in 2003 when Sox fans were all down and depressed. Things turned around quickly and that can happen again.

Cespedes would have helped, but would it have been enough? All others, no. The White Sox are currently paying the price for their development failures of the last 10-15 years. Eventually it catches up to you, now they have to play catch up.

 

While most of the minor league teams sucked, there definitely is more talent in the minor leagues than there has been in the recent past.

[Lip Man 1]

The criticism of JR and of the White Sox is unwarranted. There is no proven correlation between spending on free agents and a team's success.

There have been bad moves like Shields and LaRoach, but there have been some good transactions like Abreu, Eaton, Quintana and Sale.

JR has spent enormous money on the White Sox and on the Bulls. MJ had the largest player Contract in history.

 

There is a LOT of luck involved in Sports from Drafting players, trades and in the way the ball bounces in games.

I am sick and tired of the hand wringing and the finger pointing. Mistakes have been made but baseball is just a game, so there s nothing earth shattering about that.

 

As a Sox fan, just try to look forward to some changes and additions to the team for next season. 29 other teams will be trying to do the same thing.

 

I remember about this time in 2003 when Sox fans were all down and depressed. Things turned around quickly and that can happen again.

 

Fair point although there are some important differences.

 

One is that the Sox had winning seasons in two of the three previous seasons before 2003 (they had a .500 season in the other one),and made the playoffs in 2000... two they had what was regarded as one of the top minor league systems in all of baseball. Three was that they already had on the big league roster young players who were showing they were capable of being very good at the major league level.

 

I don't know if you can make the same claims about the franchise today as they get ready to head into 2017.

 

Anything can happen but if it does it appears to me to be more the result of catching lightning in a bottle than any real plan.

 

Mark

Edited September 29, 2016 by Lip Man 1

[Dick Allen]

And top to bottom, the organization is ok with that. As long as they can come in at the end of year evaluations and say they did their best, they shouldn't be evaluated on wins and losses. The manager, the coaching staff, the front office, all agree.

No they are not. But cherry pick stories and embellish to try to fit your narrative. Explain this quote if everything is A-OK

 

"We're mired in mediocrity," Hahn said. "That's not the goal. That's not acceptable. … The goal was to put ourselves in a situation to win a championship, and (being) stuck at .500 or around .500 doesn't do that.

 

 

"We may well have to adjust and take a longer-term view and take a different approach going forward."

 

[Dick Allen]

Fair point although there are some important differences.

 

One is that the Sox had winning seasons in two of the three previous seasons before 2003 (they had a .500 season in the other one),and made the playoffs in 2000... two they had what was regarded as one of the top minor league systems in all of baseball. Three was that they already had on the big league roster young players who were showing they were capable of being very good at the major league level.

 

I don't know if you can make the same claims about the franchise today as they get ready to head into 2017.

 

Anything can happen but if it does it appears to me to be more the result of catching lightning in a bottle than any real plan.

 

Mark

You put too much stock in 82-80 vs. 79-83. If you were expecting to contend, they are equal failures. Those teams in 2003 and 2004 had a lot more talent than the current team that is trotted out there. Offensively, there is no comparison.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Dick Allen